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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:19 pm |
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The elevator scene is legendary.
Has anyone youtubed it?
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:31 pm |
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Well. And now I'm whoring, but:
I did write this. I think that there's mo(r)é to be written.
You know, Religion is a funny word. I feel like it conjures up specific ideas about right and wrong. I don't really sense those in this . . . otakudom-thing. Religions usually have defined precepts.
Maybe Look, But Don't Touch ?
It sounds really trite, but it seems more like another view of Reality.
?
Or maybe a Delusion?
?
Or maybe a kind of filter layered over this reality?
?
Or maybe a security blanket?
?
Or maybe a Whore?
?
Maybe I need to learn a little more Japanese.
| Quote: |
| The elevator scene is legendary. |
I never made it all the way through EVA. Can you give me the gist of the scene? I am interested! |
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:09 am |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
Well. And now I'm whoring, but:
I did write this. I think that there's mo(r)é to be written.
You know, Religion is a funny word. I feel like it conjures up specific ideas about right and wrong. I don't really sense those in this . . . otakudom-thing. Religions usually have defined precepts.
Maybe Look, But Don't Touch ?
It sounds really trite, but it seems more like another view of Reality.
?
Or maybe a Delusion?
?
Or maybe a kind of filter layered over this reality?
?
Or maybe a security blanket?
?
Or maybe a Whore?
?
Maybe I need to learn a little more Japanese. |
Your article explains a whole lot. It is like a religion, but (to be snobbishly Western) only a part. The religions we're used to are actually made up of several things: a creator that doesn't ignore your presence, a threat of retribution for certain actions, and so on. You don't need all of those things to create a religious atmosphere, but people tend to think you do, which is why people love to say stuff like "Buddhism isn't a religion, it's a way of life".
Similarly, we have a group of people who have effectively created a neutral zone for stuff "normal" people don't like. It's a different world. Like a religious retreat (I've been to a few) without the hellfire and condemnation; like Psalm 23 without the Ten Commandments. A very passive-aggressive way of saying "I like strange things, what are you going to do about it?".
You spoke of a massive psychological accident creating otakudom in Japan- isn't this "accident" just the same source that spawns the freaks over here? Your article notes how the fandom over here loves to claim it's better than all the other fandom (the Geek Hierarchy really nails this point). Of course, all the "normal" people don't see a difference in the difference forms of freakishness. In Japan, the otaku have turned Akihabara into a common refuge.
As for what the massive psychological accident is, I'm just gonna say "society" because I'll be damned if there's one source for creating lonely outcasts. |
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Levi
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:36 am |
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To get this IT under control, we're clearly going to have to figure out just what the difference between IT and NOT IT is, a hard fast line that separates them. I think original intent could be a starting point (e.g. "This is not moe, it was made moe by fans.)"
Topic to consider:
Is Cloud's head scratching moe? What about Link's refusal (or inability) to speak? |
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Persona-sama
artistically unofficial
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: cosmic eternity
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:10 am |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
| What massive psychological accident has happened to the True Hardcore 110% otaku, that they would forgo everything, everything, that normal people derive pleasure and meaning from, and instead fixate on a shared delusion? |
I don't think it's so much something happening to them as it is something that never happened. That is, the lack of social development or maturity in social settings.
At least, that's the best I can figure for most of the real otakus I've met in my life.
| Quote: |
| THE MELANCHOLY OF HARUHI SUZUMIYA: EPISODE 9 |
I enjoyed that episode. It was the only one that really made me feel a little melancholy.
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:54 am |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
| I never made it all the way through EVA. Can you give me the gist of the scene? I am interested! |
It is a monument to GAINAX's money-saving abilities, in that it is a few seconds of footage looped for a minute or so. See also: Kaworu's death scene.
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Persona-sama
artistically unofficial
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: cosmic eternity
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:39 am |
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To put it more eloquently, it's about a minute long scene of Rei and Asuka standing in an elevator together while elevator music plays in the background. The scene starts off with Rei getting on an elevator at Nerv HQ while Asuka is already inside. Asuka then says some very angry remarks towards Rei about Shinji or something while Rei is apathetic. As the elevator clicks passes floors, they stare opposite directions, the intensity of the room building as the background music builds up. Finally, the door opens and Rei leaves saying some smart remark, causing Asuka to bang her frustrations out on the closed elevator door.
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:41 am |
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| luvcraft wrote: |
| Levi wrote: |
| So then chibi is moe now? |
no no no, this is the thread where we throw around the words "chibi", "moe", "SD", "loli", "pedophilia" and "yukelele" as if they all mean exactly the same thing, but then refuse to define that same thing that they all mean.
By which I mean: I think this thread has spun out of control and is now worthless. :( |
Look at how many terms you've listed! Consider how similar the concepts involved are: is it any wonder the words are confused when people are distracted by the intensity of the discussion?
From what I've seen of furries and other vaguely fanatical subcultures, the more diverse and layered the terminology is, the more pronounced the exclusivity of that niche becomes. Jargon is at once a celebration of the community, a deterrent to curious or critical outsiders, and a litmus test for newcomers. Leet-speak's a prime example: its incomprehensibility made it attractive to fledgling online communities. Understanding leet's pretty intuitive, though, so leet incorporated ever-greater levels of irony and complexity to seperate teh 1337 from teh n00bs. Or something.
The subculture surrounding moe is noteworthy because it coincides with much of the gaming public in Japan. I want to know how this intersection effects Japanese game developers, and what that should mean for games made in America.
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:00 pm |
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| Yeah, Gainax and the money saving, huh? See also: Gunbuster. |
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:17 pm |
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This link may be irrelevent. Then again, it may be illuminating.
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Levi
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:54 pm |
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Coast to Coast AM had a show about "otherkin" a week or so back - it's just a nicer word for furry it seems.
Except for Bodhisattvas. |
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:03 pm |
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Also, I've never seen a furry claim to be a character from Gundam Wing in a previous life.
EDIT: The previous link--that's an article about otakukin. The otherkin bit at the beginning's just by way of introduction.
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Levi
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:15 pm |
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| You can do that? Dibs on Treize. |
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Takashi
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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L
⌐
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:53 pm |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
| They fucking talk to it, man! They laugh to it and tell it secrets! They whoop and hum along with the music it's singing inside their heads! |
I feel the need for someone to anthropomorphise it even further, Neil Gaiman style. |
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:50 pm |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
From what I've seen of furries and other vaguely fanatical subcultures, the more diverse and layered the terminology is, the more pronounced the exclusivity of that niche becomes. Jargon is at once a celebration of the community, a deterrent to curious or critical outsiders, and a litmus test for newcomers. Leet-speak's a prime example: its incomprehensibility made it attractive to fledgling online communities. Understanding leet's pretty intuitive, though, so leet incorporated ever-greater levels of irony and complexity to seperate teh 1337 from teh n00bs. Or something.
The subculture surrounding moe is noteworthy because it coincides with much of the gaming public in Japan. I want to know how this intersection effects Japanese game developers, and what that should mean for games made in America. |
Is this any different from taking an FPS and turning it into a Halo-clone because the market wants that? Maybe a better example would be making a tough special ops guy be the main character (since the moe equivalent would be a schoolgirl with pink hair, or maybe glasses). Would it really affect the game industry beyond creating a default asthetic and dampening "symmetrical" games? |
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:15 am |
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Well, right. Artistic superiority is the result of a work standing apart from the field. In that sense, it runs counter to the business instinct of going with what's been proven--the Halo clones, the GTA clones. This is just another example of that instinct, and that's why it's important for me to see it documented: I like knowing where ordinary is. Asking why the ordinary should be what it is--that's just me being curious.
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:47 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| Well, right. Artistic superiority is the result of a work standing apart from the field. In that sense, it runs counter to the business instinct of going with what's been proven--the Halo clones, the GTA clones. This is just another example of that instinct, and that's why it's important for me to see it documented: I like knowing where ordinary is. Asking why the ordinary should be what it is--that's just me being curious. |
I figure it's based on the demographic that makes up the market- here, socially unaccepted people. Social outcasts want to be needed, but society doesn't need them- so they create what they don't naturally get. If moe is a sense of protecting and warmly watching over someone, that means the target of moe wants (and needs) to be protected and warmly watched over- the outcast as player has a substitute.
Over time, the most basic form of this "pure love"- a highschool sweetheart, or a damsel in distress- became boring. So gamemakers made the old new again with things that range from preferences (much like blond/brunette/redhead, you can get glasses/pigtails/etc.) to fetishes (loli/maid/so forth). Naturally, "standard" moe is still available for the newly outcast, who generally grow tired of it and enter fetish land.
In America, the outcasts turned to power trips instead- D&D is one example. Gaming focused on power and victory. When this grew old, the story was retold with better graphics and gameplay. Instead of creating many different scenarios, American gamemakers try to make the original scenario perfect- a realtime 3D multiple-light-sourced power trip. Some mixing in does occur- Doom-horror and WW2-nobility, usually- which helps keep the same story interesting.
That got kinda long. |
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:32 am |
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It strikes me that wish fulfillment is the underlying shortcut, here--the unifying principle of making games cheaply that will make mad profits.
So, here's a question: how do you make the alternative appealing?
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:20 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
It strikes me that wish fulfillment is the underlying shortcut, here--the unifying principle of making games cheaply that will make mad profits.
So, here's a question: how do you make the alternative appealing? |
Making expensive games that won't turn profits? Not being flip, here -- just . . . is that what you mean? |
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:57 am |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
| Making expensive games that won't turn profits? Not being flip, here -- just . . . is that what you mean? |
No, no. I mean, are there videogame concepts that could be successful that somehow don't make use of the wish-fulfillment underlying structure?
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JSNLV is frequently and intentionally wrong. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:00 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| klikbeep wrote: |
| Making expensive games that won't turn profits? Not being flip, here -- just . . . is that what you mean? |
No, no. I mean, are there videogame concepts that could be successful that somehow don't make use of the wish-fulfillment underlying structure? |
Ah. Actually, I don't think it's possible. Since all games are judged based on how much "fun" they are, they shut off huge ranges of possible expression. Games are the only - - and I'm being charitable here - - art form that caters specifically to audience demands.
I suppose you do have times when stuff slips through the cracks, but the current system certainly doesn't encourage it. The audience meets production squarely in the middle, and you can calculate what game will sell to what person almost to the man. Kind of neat for accounting purposes. |
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luvcraft
buy my game buy my game me me me
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Cobrastan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:18 pm |
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| Maxson wrote: |
I figure it's based on the demographic that makes up the market- here, socially unaccepted people. Social outcasts want to be needed, but society doesn't need them- so they create what they don't naturally get. If moe is a sense of protecting and warmly watching over someone, that means the target of moe wants (and needs) to be protected and warmly watched over- the outcast as player has a substitute.
Over time, the most basic form of this "pure love"- a highschool sweetheart, or a damsel in distress- became boring. So gamemakers made the old new again with things that range from preferences (much like blond/brunette/redhead, you can get glasses/pigtails/etc.) to fetishes (loli/maid/so forth). Naturally, "standard" moe is still available for the newly outcast, who generally grow tired of it and enter fetish land.
In America, the outcasts turned to power trips instead- D&D is one example. Gaming focused on power and victory. When this grew old, the story was retold with better graphics and gameplay. Instead of creating many different scenarios, American gamemakers try to make the original scenario perfect- a realtime 3D multiple-light-sourced power trip. Some mixing in does occur- Doom-horror and WW2-nobility, usually- which helps keep the same story interesting.
That got kinda long. |
This post is full of sense. |
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:04 pm |
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It's true! Maxson's observations have been even-handed and level-headed! If we had a karma system installed, I'd have been giving him karma left and right.
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:50 pm |
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Aw thanks guys.
| klikbeep wrote: |
| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| No, no. I mean, are there videogame concepts that could be successful that somehow don't make use of the wish-fulfillment underlying structure? |
Ah. Actually, I don't think it's possible. Since all games are judged based on how much "fun" they are, they shut off huge ranges of possible expression. Games are the only - - and I'm being charitable here - - art form that caters specifically to audience demands.
I suppose you do have times when stuff slips through the cracks, but the current system certainly doesn't encourage it. The audience meets production squarely in the middle, and you can calculate what game will sell to what person almost to the man. Kind of neat for accounting purposes. |
Would a more varied audience make non-wish-fulfillment games viable? The variety of books and movies available must be based on some theory of profitability- smaller profits for smaller markets, no doubt, but still profitable. We know there is a market for non-wish-fulfillment games- some of the people in this thread seem interested- but it's probably not profitable right now.
I think one way to create a varied gaming market would be to expand the basic gaming market- more people would introduce more varied demands. This would be a counterbalance to the "democratized game production" theory. A larger market could make non-standard production viable, but a larger market also goes through new ideas extremely quickly. |
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SplashBeats
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:49 am |
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| Takeshi's Challenge is a non-wish fulfillment game. |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:24 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| klikbeep wrote: |
| Making expensive games that won't turn profits? Not being flip, here -- just . . . is that what you mean? |
No, no. I mean, are there videogame concepts that could be successful that somehow don't make use of the wish-fulfillment underlying structure? |
Well, to be frank, I think the "wish-fulfillment" thing isn't a problem in and of itself -- some of the greatest films ever made are also escapist fantasy, after all. I reckon what we need is a game that does both at once, and perfectly -- can supply deeply satisfying wish fulfillment (which, I should note, doesn't necessarily entail having Gruff McHardBody or Mary McMoePanties as the protagonist) along with a dramatically/intellectually/emotionally challenging/engaging scenario. Along with whatever other unknowns might be associated with this idealized "great artistic game", of course.
The problem right now is that no such game exists to be a role model -- to demonstrate that an (nominally) original IP can appeal to its built-in audience while still maintaining artistic excellence. And so in the mean time you have two scenarios: one is well meaning people who want to make a good game but shoehorn it into existing archetypes which are guaranteed to be appealing to the target audience; the other is soulless hacks who are only interested in producing half-baked schlock that sells based on license on image. The former produces games like Gears of War and Asuka Burning Fest, and the latter produces BloodRayne and [insert random gundam shovelware title here].
As far this messianic game that I've been alluding to, Half Life 2 and Shadow of the Colossus are the two closest things that come to mind, but they both have significant flaws (SotC in its gameplay, HL2 in its narrative). These flaws don't ruin the game and they don't keep them from being great, but a the sort of game I'm thinking about would have to transcend those sorts of problems as well.
This is a good thread~!
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:37 pm |
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| Joe wrote: |
| Takeshi's Challenge is a non-wish fulfillment game. |
Quite right! (b^^)b I have a rather - - by my standards - - clever article waiting in the old Insert Credit queue on this very topic. It's got more edge than a pack of Gillette Fusion refills. Please take a moment and read it when it appears. I'll try and cough up a whoring link at the appropriate time.
| Maxson wrote: |
| Aw thanks guys. |
There might be something to this Internet after all!
| Quote: |
| Would a more varied audience make non-wish-fulfillment games viable? The variety of books and movies available must be based on some theory of profitability- smaller profits for smaller markets, no doubt, but still profitable. We know there is a market for non-wish-fulfillment games- some of the people in this thread seem interested- but it's probably not profitable right now. |
Interesting question. Honestly, with conditions as they are, I'm not really sure what kind of audience variance there is to exploit out there. People keep sniffing for gold in the Casuals, but that's really just normal everyday everybody discovering old game concepts (Wii Sports!) with more intuitive control schemata. If you're looking for the game market equivalent of Guy With Glasses Who Scratches His Chin At Record Shops . . . well, I'm pretty sure Select Button is more or less it. Given the costs of development . . . not really a viable option.
| Quote: |
| I think one way to create a varied gaming market would be to expand the basic gaming market- more people would introduce more varied demands. This would be a counterbalance to the "democratized game production" theory. A larger market could make non-standard production viable, but a larger market also goes through new ideas extremely quickly. |
True, but there are basically two ways to expand the market -- you can either make something so fresh and innovative that people voluntarily overcome their mental blocks to check it out (Katamari Model), or you cater to the lowest common denominator (Tits Model). Of course, both of those involve higher amounts of risk than just selling to a smaller, carefully cultivated marketplace where all of the variables are more or less known (Moé/Madden Model [MMM]). It makes far more sense to rehash and retread.
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| I think the "wish-fulfillment" thing isn't a problem in and of itself -- some of the greatest films ever made are also escapist fantasy, after all. |
Sure -- but not all of them. Games are judged by criteria that is completely out of whack with the desire for the medium to grow and challenge. The audience always has to get a Satisfying Experience. The thing is supposed to be enjoyable, or it sucks (alt: blows). The ethos-challenging and worldview-rattling of the art world can't be mapped onto gaming, because the customer is always Right.
I . . . I have an article coming about this. A trifle excited about it!
| Quote: |
| As far this messianic game that I've been alluding to, Half Life 2 and Shadow of the Colossus are the two closest things that come to mind, but they both have significant flaws (SotC in its gameplay, HL2 in its narrative). These flaws don't ruin the game and they don't keep them from being great, but a the sort of game I'm thinking about would have to transcend those sorts of problems as well. |
Okay . . . but basically you just want a Very Good Game. 10s where there are 9s and 8s. My point isn't that games aren't Totally Rad (They Are So Rad!), it's that they're trapped in a horrific box of industry control, stale archetypes, and nostalgic masturbation. You might as well throw Panty-tan in your v-scroll shooter; she's not hurting anything. How does her presence mar the otherwise Very Worthwhile pursuit of dodging hit boxes?
It's like raging against the presence of Lucky on the box of Lucky Charms. Goofy, sure. Embarrassing-ish.
But consider the fucking product. |
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Mr. Apol
king of zembla
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: a curiously familiar pit
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:17 pm |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| klikbeep wrote: |
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| klikbeep wrote: |
No, that's me -- Brendan! Brendan Lee. I am holding a bag of pork rinds in that photo! Boy, do I look happy. |
Not just pork rinds -- microwavable pork rinds!
The first time I came across those was a very joyful moment. I got them as a birthday present for the bassist in my band. |
Man, so how do they work? I never bought them. Is there condensation in there that puffs them up, or what? Are they soft or crispy? |
I have no idea! I'm way too terrified of the holy power of microwavable pork rinds to ever actually TRY them. I reckon they inflated like a bag of popcorn or something. No telling how it tastes though.
I can't eat pork rinds because they will forever pale before the glory that is cracklins |
look, total tangent here, but thanks for that link toups. the guy who writes that stuff is GREAT.
man he's like the grandfather i never had.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:43 pm |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| I think the "wish-fulfillment" thing isn't a problem in and of itself -- some of the greatest films ever made are also escapist fantasy, after all. |
Sure -- but not all of them. Games are judged by criteria that is completely out of whack with the desire for the medium to grow and challenge. The audience always has to get a Satisfying Experience. The thing is supposed to be enjoyable, or it sucks (alt: blows). The ethos-challenging and worldview-rattling of the art world can't be mapped onto gaming, because the customer is always Right.
I . . . I have an article coming about this. A trifle excited about it!
| Quote: |
| As far this messianic game that I've been alluding to, Half Life 2 and Shadow of the Colossus are the two closest things that come to mind, but they both have significant flaws (SotC in its gameplay, HL2 in its narrative). These flaws don't ruin the game and they don't keep them from being great, but a the sort of game I'm thinking about would have to transcend those sorts of problems as well. |
Okay . . . but basically you just want a Very Good Game. 10s where there are 9s and 8s. My point isn't that games aren't Totally Rad (They Are So Rad!), it's that they're trapped in a horrific box of industry control, stale archetypes, and nostalgic masturbation. You might as well throw Panty-tan in your v-scroll shooter; she's not hurting anything. How does her presence mar the otherwise Very Worthwhile pursuit of dodging hit boxes?
It's like raging against the presence of Lucky on the box of Lucky Charms. Goofy, sure. Embarrassing-ish.
But consider the fucking product. |
Well, the thing is, I think in order for the type of game you want to become possible, we first need the sort of game I'm talking about. Something to break some new ground, blow a few doors open, release some floodgates, etc. A game which will demonstrate that "GAMEPLAY AWESOME GRAPHICS EXCELLENT" are not the only things that can sell a game.
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:43 am |
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| Quote: |
| Well, the thing is, I think in order for the type of game you want to become possible, we first need the sort of game I'm talking about. Something to break some new ground, blow a few doors open, release some floodgates, etc. A game which will demonstrate that "GAMEPLAY AWESOME GRAPHICS EXCELLENT" are not the only things that can sell a game. |
Toups, you know I respect you, dogg. You know our chat up on the Xbox Live -- that wasn't playin'. But I gotta disagree with your opinion.
This Splendid game that you're talking about . . . well, no doubt it would be very Rad indeed -- perhaps landing squarely in the bounds of the mythical Ultra Rad. Unfortunately, it would just be proof that the current system works. Your game would be filleted and copied and recycled until people began to question the worth of the original game.
That, and stuff just isn't given the opportunity to age in this medium. While your awesome game would certainly be hot shit in the beginning, it wouldn't be able to sustain that kind of reputation over time as the Relentless March of Technology (and Joe Gamer's March of Boredom with It) shuffled along. Nobody looks to the past -- at least, not enough nobodies to form a financially solid base.
Man, innovation beset on all sides these days. |
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Monochrome
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:55 am |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
This Splendid game that you're talking about . . . well, no doubt it would be very Rad indeed -- perhaps landing squarely in the bounds of the mythical Ultra Rad. Unfortunately, it would just be proof that the current system works. Your game would be filleted and copied and recycled until people began to question the worth of the original game.
That, and stuff just isn't given the opportunity to age in this medium. While your awesome game would certainly be hot shit in the beginning, it wouldn't be able to sustain that kind of reputation over time as the Relentless March of Technology (and Joe Gamer's March of Boredom with It) shuffled along. Nobody looks to the past -- at least, not enough nobodies to form a financially solid base. |
Yes. And to prove it, we have the example of JRPGs. Most narrative gamers who didn't futilely have the defibrillators out for the graphic adventure genre felt convinced that it was the next great form of epic storytelling, after Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6. This clique has discussed at colossal length how that turned out. |
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:43 am |
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There's a disagreement here that I think may not actually exist. I want to try paraphrasing the relevant bits of conversation:
Klikbeep: Wish-fulfillment is the only viable model, currently. Which sucks.
Mister Toups: It's not that bad. We need a game that's wish-fulfillment as well as independent excellence. Like HL2 and SOTC but moreso.
Klikbeep: Except there's too much pressure to make profit. Games right now are just a goofy consumer commodity.
Mister Toups: Well, this kind of transcendant game would change that.
Klikbeep: Not really. Your game would just be fuel for the engines of commerce. Rather than breaking the system, you'd be perpetuating it, and your flawless game would be ruined by its very success.
Have I summarized your positions accurately? Because if so, I agree with you both.
Toups, I said it in the other thread and I'll say it again, here: nothing survives in the end, except for brilliant execution. If gaming's critics are going to give it legitemate accord, we first need to see a game which merits that accord. (I'd like to point out that the critics I'm referring to here are the people on this message board.)
Klikbeep, you're right that even the flawless game that Toups describes is just more meat for the grinder. Profiteers looking for a template to exploit will be with us as long as games cost money to make. I'm curious to see what games could accomplish if they didn't have to worry about profitability, and I'm not sure that we'll ever find out.
I did notice something curious, though.
| klikbeep wrote: |
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| As far this messianic game that I've been alluding to, Half Life 2 and Shadow of the Colossus are the two closest things that come to mind, but they both have significant flaws (SotC in its gameplay, HL2 in its narrative). These flaws don't ruin the game and they don't keep them from being great, but a the sort of game I'm thinking about would have to transcend those sorts of problems as well. |
Okay . . . but basically you just want a Very Good Game. 10s where there are 9s and 8s. My point isn't that games aren't Totally Rad (They Are So Rad!), it's that they're trapped in a horrific box of industry control, stale archetypes, and nostalgic masturbation. You might as well throw Panty-tan in your v-scroll shooter; she's not hurting anything. How does her presence mar the otherwise Very Worthwhile pursuit of dodging hit boxes?
It's like raging against the presence of Lucky on the box of Lucky Charms. Goofy, sure. Embarrassing-ish.
But consider the fucking product. |
I'm puzzled because Half-Life 2 and Shadow of the Colossus aren't just Good Games. I mean, these are pretty much the opposite of the Moé/Madden Model. Half-Life 2 even manages to achieve commercial success while providing one of the most coherent and appropriate narrative structures for a game yet developed! If anything proves that innovation can thrive even in a painfully commercialized market, this would be it.
A thought: bad games make good games look better. GTA3's merits are more obvious when a raft of GTA clones bungle those same features (or, almost as bad, incorporate features where they're not appropriate). No?
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:19 pm |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| Klikbeep, you're right that even the flawless game that Toups describes is just more meat for the grinder. Profiteers looking for a template to exploit will be with us as long as games cost money to make. I'm curious to see what games could accomplish if they didn't have to worry about profitability, and I'm not sure that we'll ever find out. |
Here's the thing -- there are plenty of developers out there who are "profiteers" as you put it, but there are plenty of other developers who are well-meaning and who just want to make good games. I'm thinking of studios like Epic and SCE Santa Monica, Rockstar Games, and on the other side of the pond studios like Irem, Punchline, and internal teams of larger dev's like Team Silent. These studios have produced games such as Gears of War, God of War, GTA: San Andreas, Steambot Chronicles, Rule of Rose, and the Silent Hill 2 -- all games which, to varying degrees, have many elements of artistic merit, but, for varying reasons in varying areas, default to archaic gameplay themes, mechanics, story themes, character types, etc., not because they particularly contribute or complement the game's concept but because they are well-known design tropes to fall back on. All of these games start, however, with very compelling concepts, either thematically or mechanically, and if there were more games like Half Life 2 or SotC which are so purely designed around a single concept, and every element -- level design, characters, plot, art direction, etc -- is tuned to support that concept... I don't know! I think what I'm saying is this game would have to show that it ain't broke but it's still worth fixing anyway. In other words to demonstrate to these small-but-well-intentioned studios (granted not all of them are that small) that taking risks is okay -- that you don't need to rely on what's known to sell to sell.
I mean, it's not as if I'm expecting the schlock to disappear, nor do I really want it to. I think what we all want is there to be a more defined alternative. As many others have said, a genre of "highbrow" games. Even the huge juggernaut studios in the 40's would put forth money for "prestige" films, because every now and then one of those "prestige" films would be a bigger hit than any of their regular blockbusters. I just want to see something similar start happening with games.
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slipstream
hates LOTR films
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:38 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
What does that have to do with my post?
By the way, I think it's pretty stupid to label a person looking at drawings of fictional lolis a pedophile. |
No it's not.
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:45 pm |
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Back up your claim, please.
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Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:26 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Back up your claim, please. |
Back up yours. If a person gets off on naked drawings of prepubescent girls, how is it any different than getting off to kiddie porn? Before you whip out the "lolicon doesn't hurt anyone, kiddie porn is real exploitation and abuse" argument, note that it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the viewer is a pedophile.
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slipstream
hates LOTR films
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:56 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Back up your claim, please. |
You're a fucking retard.
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dark steve
secretary of good times
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: long live the new flesh
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:31 am |
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| this was going so well guys c'mon |
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The Drunken Samurai
tedious
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:09 am |
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| dark steve wrote: |
| this was going so well guys c'mon |
you saw it coming,theres always at least ONE pedo on this forum at all times
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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:17 am |
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| I knew benroit or whatever his name was was a pedophile as soon as I saw his avatar! |
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