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Persona-sama
artistically unofficial
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: cosmic eternity
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 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:28 pm |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
On the placement of that conversation in the script... we're not exactly hitting the translation material in sequential order. We're tackling it one batch at a time, as it appears in the code. The text that that particular moe conversation comes from is designated, by its placement in the code, as (1) a Control Room Conversation that (2) might or might not occur according to what has happened to the player during the game.
From the long view, I'd say that the moe-heavy stuff comes more toward the late middle of the game. |
Ah, updating myself on your 1up blog, I see what you mean about where you are in the game. I wish you much good fortune with the project as you continue on - despite disappearing programmers! Who knows, maybe he went to have an affair with a woman, and will come back home with his tail between his legs like the programmers in the simulation side of SGGG do!
I have a question about how you're approaching the project though:
Have you finished translating everything yet and are now going back and giving things a good gloss, or are you translating areas batch by batch while sometimes going back and finalizing parts you've already gone through once? Most translation projects I've seen finish their first draft translations before going back and really polishing everything to its finalized form and I was wondering how you were approaching it in comparison.
EDIT:
Also, those articles about Tom Kalinske are really interesting. I'm more familiar with Bernie Stolar and Peter Moore's history with Sega so it was interesting to see how things were for Tom back during the earlier years.
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:26 pm |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| I don't know who Ken Akamatsu is |
He's the author of the mangas Love Hina, AI Love You and Negima.
| Triton wrote: |
| If they aren't masturbating to lolikon, they would be to the JCPenney catalog. |
Lolicon are the men who are into lolis, which are young girls.
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| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:12 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| JamesE wrote: |
| I don't know who Ken Akamatsu is |
He's the author of the mangas Love Hina, AI Love You and Negima.
| Triton wrote: |
| If they aren't masturbating to lolikon, they would be to the JCPenney catalog. |
Lolicon are the men who are into lolis, which are young girls. |
lol shame
Though it is a clever pun. Mix up the Ls and Rs in "Rally" and you get "Lolly."
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:53 pm |
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What does that have to do with my post?
By the way, I think it's pretty stupid to label a person looking at drawings of fictional lolis a pedophile.
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Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:03 pm |
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This is really interesting! Thanks for posting it.
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luvcraft
buy my game buy my game me me me
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Cobrastan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:56 pm |
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after much headache and contradictory definitions, I think I've finally come up with a concise definition of moe (that actually has nothing to do with the definition I tried to provide earlier in this thread):
Moe is when you consider a child the same way you would consider a puppy. You want to bask in its cuteness, you want to watch it romp and play, you want its attention, you want to snuggle it and take care of it. You probably don't want to fuck it, though. On the other hand, you don't want it to grow up, you don't want to have a meaningful conversation with it, and you don't want it to become independent.
There. As far as I can tell, that's the most succinct definition of moe on the interwebs, compiled by reading a lot of suggested definitions of it, most of which try to cast it in too positive a light (by ignoring the whole "never grow up" aspect), and a few of which cast it in too negative a light (by confusing the snuggling and taking-care-of desires with sexual attraction), and then extrapolating from all of those.
I realize that defining moe is not the purpose of this discussion, but moe is the subject, and since it's never been clearly defined before it's kind of hard to have a serious discussion about it when it means completely different things to different people. |
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The Soviet Onion
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:03 pm |
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| Persona-sama wrote: |
James, I think your opening post is just too riled up with anti-Japanese and pedophilic sentiment. |
Yeah James, you'd better watch out: we're not going to stand for that kind of bigotry against child rapists here at Select Button.
We'd kind of like you to stop being so harsh about pedophiles too. |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:32 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
What does that have to do with my post?
By the way, I think it's pretty stupid to label a person looking at drawings of fictional lolis a pedophile. |
Sorry, I should have clarified my meaning. And by "clarified" I mean "stated."
"Lolicon" is a truncation of "Lolita Complex." "Lolicon" ends with an "n" because it's the only consonant in Japanese that stands on its own, and it kind of sounds like the "m" sound in "Com."
"Lolicon" refers broadly to manga, anime, and videogames that exploit the image of pre-pubescent girls for the sexual pleasure of their readers. "Sexual pleasure" does not equal "masturbation." Sexuality takes many strange, banal forms. "Lolicon" refers to a genre, rather than the person who enjoys the genre.
"Lolly" is a further truncation of "Lolicon." Example: "Are you into loli?" Take that one for a spin on 4chan, and I expect people will read it as, "Are you into Lolicon?"
An identical term is sometimes used to refer to a specific girl drawn in the Lolicon genre. Example: "That's my kind of loli!" In this instance, "Loli" is being used as a short form of "Lolita."
I presented the picture as an amusing example of the term "Lolly" in actual context.
And, no, a person who regularly looks at drawings of sexualised prepubescent girls is not a pedophile. He is, however, pedophilic.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:53 pm |
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Other responses too!
| Persona-sama wrote: |
| Ah, updating myself on your 1up blog, I see what you mean about where you are in the game. I wish you much good fortune with the project as you continue on - despite disappearing programmers! Who knows, maybe he went to have an affair with a woman, and will come back home with his tail between his legs like the programmers in the simulation side of SGGG do! |
To be honest, I'm concerned for his well-being. I've always wondered what happens to acquaintances on the internet when they die, and it would jar me to learn that he had been incommunicado because of paralysis or death. He was user SixFortyFive on the IC boards, so if anyone knows how to get hold of him, please drop me a line.
Not to spread rumors of his death, mind.
| Persona-sama wrote: |
| I have a question about how you're approaching the project though: Have you finished translating everything yet and are now going back and giving things a good gloss, or are you translating areas batch by batch while sometimes going back and finalizing parts you've already gone through once? Most translation projects I've seen finish their first draft translations before going back and really polishing everything to its finalized form and I was wondering how you were approaching it in comparison. |
Well, we've got one of the main batches of text translated into first draft form. I get that draft from my head translator, work it into a first draft, and then consult my redactor on nuances in the text. This is basically to get everyone on the same page, so to speak, and bring everyone up to speed on the content.
Now that there's plenty of text on hand to get a feel for the various characters, I'm working on their voices. (I wrote about the tonal considerations in the latest blog, posted sometime back in October.) This is mainly to make future work smoother. It'll be easier to polish future work from halfway good text that's in-character, rather than having to review the WHOLE OH MY GOD BODY OF TEXT and nurse all the lines into character.
| Persona-sama wrote: |
EDIT:
Also, those articles about Tom Kalinske are really interesting. I'm more familiar with Bernie Stolar and Peter Moore's history with Sega so it was interesting to see how things were for Tom back during the earlier years. |
Thanks! It's weird... on the Kalinske material... I have a vague concern in the back of my head that Sega might sue me for exposing the slant-ways libelous caricature of Kalinske, moreso than they'd care about copyright infringement!
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| This is really interesting! Thanks for posting it. |
Thank you very much! It makes me happy to know that people care about the real work we're putting into this.
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RecessRapist
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:50 am |
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| The Soviet Onion wrote: |
Yeah James, you'd better watch out: we're not going to stand for that kind of bigotry against child rapists here at Select Button.
We'd kind of like you to stop being so harsh about pedophiles too. |
Power to the people! |
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Triton
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:18 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Triton wrote: |
| If they aren't masturbating to lolikon, they would be to the JCPenney catalog. |
Lolicon are the men who are into lolis, which are young girls. |
Sorry, my mistake, I always thought lolicon was the name of erotic manga with the moe aesthetic, but now that I think about it that doesn't make good sense.
I heard an interesting word the other day, sophistry, and I immediately thought of this thread. I guess pedophilia is such a touchy subject that it almost implies a deceptive argument, from either proponent.
| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| It's a coherency issue. |
Absolutely. A game that includes something as risque as a half naked child is probably trying to compensate for something though. Any game where the form of the characters doesn't match the theme of the game itself has design problems. This is like trying to define what an erotic photograph is, of any subject matter.
For me, Etna and Marona are perfectly suited for their environments, and Prier is quite clearly an adult. I know this isn't doujin, but I had seen NIS indicted for being "Moe". The shrine maidens of the Touhou games aren't even drawn using the same style as "generic anime", and they're perfectly suited to their game world. Then there's games where the technology is low and the character is made female simply to avoid looking too generic, like Lethal Application (which is great fun btw). They often end up looking "loli" in this case. I'm just trying to say that there are games where it is appropriate, at least to me. |
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Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:39 am |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| To be honest, I'm concerned for his well-being. I've always wondered what happens to acquaintances on the internet when they die, and it would jar me to learn that he had been incommunicado because of paralysis or death. He was user SixFortyFive on the IC boards, so if anyone knows how to get hold of him, please drop me a line. |
I have the feeling I may be on the verge of stirring up some horrible drama, or just plain doing what I shouldn't, but...
Didn't I point you to the Mr Monkey Man forums?
You might want to check there? Again?
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:48 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
The "pedophiles on wikipedia" topic is a distraction; ignore it. They may be an unfortunate inevitability of natural selection. They may be choking our prison system and likely to offend again. Whatever. The subject is "moe's prevalence in games", and the implications thereof.
Art is successful when it is unconventional. An artist working from a formula or template should look for ways to break that template. If only part of a work is formulaic, then that part must not be what the artist considered important.
So, doujin games using the moe style are lopsided experiments in gameplay. Likewise their counterparts in the commercial sector! Smething asymmetrical like Disgaea is more like a short story, while something symmetrical like Cave Story is more like a novel. Notice that length isn't the determining factor: whether the asymmetrical game is made by one person or a hundred--whether it lasts fifteen minutes or fifty hours--it's distinct from the symmetrical experience. |
I think you may have missed it when I said this.
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q 3
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:16 am |
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| luvcraft wrote: |
| Moe is when you consider a child the same way you would consider a puppy. You want to bask in its cuteness, you want to watch it romp and play, you want its attention, you want to snuggle it and take care of it. You probably don't want to fuck it, though. On the other hand, you don't want it to grow up, you don't want to have a meaningful conversation with it, and you don't want it to become independent. |
Nintengirls: Brunette and Friends? |
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:52 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
Whatever. The subject is "moe's prevalence in games", and the implications thereof.
Art is successful when it is unconventional. An artist working from a formula or template should look for ways to break that template. If only part of a work is formulaic, then that part must not be what the artist considered important.
So, doujin games using the moe style are lopsided experiments in gameplay. Likewise their counterparts in the commercial sector! Smething asymmetrical like Disgaea is more like a short story, while something symmetrical like Cave Story is more like a novel. Notice that length isn't the determining factor: whether the asymmetrical game is made by one person or a hundred--whether it lasts fifteen minutes or fifty hours--it's distinct from the symmetrical experience. |
I'm taking your last paragraph to mean that moe is automatically formulaic. If that's not what you're writing, my mistake.
The prevalence of moe in games would only be a problem if it somehow restricted people from making non-moe games. I agree that moe in most games has become formulaic- at best, mere filler art/story to get the interesting parts of the game across; at worst, a cheap attempt to sell a lackluster game. But nothing prevents an artist from producing a game without moe, especially in the sprawling doujin scene. It may sell less, but great art never guaranteed riches.
Besides, is moe automatically filler? Can't it be a part of the symmetrical experience? Even if we adopt luvcraft's definition (I like it, but still have some issues with it), I can see a game making that a central concept. Something Princess Maker-like. |
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Triton
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:41 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| I think you may have missed it when I said this. |
Yeah, I did, thanks. I agree on disgaea, I can see why this would turn some people off. It certainly feels like the developers were more interested in creating the mechanics of the game before pretty much any other aspect. I think this is sort of the whole low-tech thing that I mentioned. I'm sure there wasn't too much money available for the project at least at first. They did what they could with the limited resources, and gave the game the "moe" theme because they knew there would be people receptive to it. If they hadn't, Disgaea might have never been published.
That's actually one of the big things that attracts me to homebrew and doujin software, the fact that it's imperfect. I guess to me something amazing created by one person (Cave Story) is more exceptional than the same thing created by a dozen people. Maybe it's the experience of, "the person that made this is just like me!", which kind of instills self confidence. Most of the commercial games I own have that imperfect doujin feel, I think that games like this need to really deliver in terms of gameplay in order to get published.
Maybe sometimes its ok to take shortcuts as long as the game delivers elsewhere? |
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Takashi
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:24 am |
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Thanks for responding, Maxson and Triton. Despite taking different approaches, I think you share a common point: that the abundance of moe elements in doujin games is a convenient shorthand that allows said games to exist in the quantities that they do; that at worst, such elements are a harmless eccentricity. Am I interpreting correctly?
It seems like a safe attitude to maintain. It was the attitude I held toward the moe phenomenon for a long time, anyway. I'm beginning to feel otherwise.
The more you democratize a given artform, the less you'll find exemplary work in that form. This seems counterintuitive, but it's been happening for literature over the last half of the 20th century. I see two reasons why this should be the case.
The first issue is one of craftsmanship. The more time educators spend making the form accessible, the less time they have to pass on the lessons of mastery. The importance of this issue increases proportionally to the complexity of the craft, so this idea is very important for programmers.
The second issue is the interaction between art and design space. As Delany wrote, the quality of art is a function of its originality. The more artists you have working in a field, then, the faster they cover the available design space. I can hear the complaints now--"There's nothing truly new under the sun," and "there will always be revolutions in the way art is made." Still, the problem is intensified when you've got a higher density of artists working in the form: what's new becomes old much faster, the novel rapidly becomes formulaic, and the audience at large begins to look outside the artform for new entertainments.
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:35 am |
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| Takashi wrote: |
| Maxson wrote: |
| Besides, is moe automatically filler? Can't it be a part of the symmetrical experience? Even if we adopt luvcraft's definition (I like it, but still have some issues with it), I can see a game making that a central concept. Something Princess Maker-like. |
There's a perfect example : idolm@ster (btw I cry when I masturbate) is 100% real-definition (and High Definition, even) moe. |
Again, I have no problem with this. It's the "let's make our shooter protagonist a cute little girl, because why not?" instinct that I find troublesome.
However!
This brings to mind my problem with luvcraft's definition. There's cuteness and innocence in moe, yes. There's more to it, though: to power up the innocence, there has to be something opposing it, a strong contrast of some sort. Whether it's violence or sexual content or merely ironic, "mature" behavior (I'm thinking here of Chiyo scolding the older girls in Azumanga Daioh--a moe moment in an otherwise not-terribly-moe show), true moe arises out of the juxtaposition of the adorable and the unadorable.
That strikes me as more consistent with the way I've seen the word used in the past, anyway.
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:57 pm |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| The more you democratize a given artform, the less you'll find exemplary work in that form. This seems counterintuitive, but it's been happening for literature over the last half of the 20th century. |
If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) I don't see a way of changing it. Since the tools for producing art- be it literature or video games- have become cheap, democratization was inevitable. The doujin market itself is an example of cheap tools producing a new market.
| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| The first issue is one of craftsmanship. The more time educators spend making the form accessible, the less time they have to pass on the lessons of mastery. The importance of this issue increases proportionally to the complexity of the craft, so this idea is very important for programmers. |
I'm not sure how passing on the lessons of mastery generally occurs in an artistic medium. I assume it happens through example- someone produces something great, others learn from it. If so, only something that breaks the trend of following the market will succeed here. I don't really see moe as a threat against innovation so much as a symptom of an insular otaku-driven market, which is the real problem.
If you also mean technical mastery, like programming skill, I think sponsorship was generally the means by which new ideas became well-known. The Japanese have just set up government sponsorship to encourage new ideas- maybe it'll help.
| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| The second issue is the interaction between art and design space. As Delany wrote, the quality of art is a function of its originality. The more artists you have working in a field, then, the faster they cover the available design space. I can hear the complaints now--"There's nothing truly new under the sun," and "there will always be revolutions in the way art is made." Still, the problem is intensified when you've got a higher density of artists working in the form: what's new becomes old much faster, the novel rapidly becomes formulaic, and the audience at large begins to look outside the artform for new entertainments. |
(I haven't read Delany, so I'm working off what you've said he said.) I agree up to the point of the audience leaving to seek something new- the main consumers of the doujin market are otaku, they don't want anything new. They still want a thrill, so they take the old ideas and rile them up- as you put it, they power up the innocence. This is basically fetishizing, which explains why so much of moe focuses on little girls- they're the easiest sacred cow to slaughter. As a result, the market will merely stagnate, its growth based entirely on the new otaku constantly produced by society. The market grows out instead of growing up (shades of superflat theory?).
If democratizing a form of art reduces the quality of the work, technology itself is to blame for the large numbers of moe schoolgirl/grunting space marine work we see clogging the video game industry today. That, mixed with an otaku/hardcore market that refuses to dry up and become unprofitable, produces modern gaming. The prevalence of moe is no different than the prevalence of WW2 shooters- the market doesn't want to grow up and doesn't need to, either. |
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luvcraft
buy my game buy my game me me me
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Cobrastan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:08 am |
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| q 3 wrote: |
| Nintengirls: Brunette and Friends? |
Remember not to let your precious child eat spaghetti out of the garbage during walks. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:16 pm |
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| luvcraft wrote: |
| q 3 wrote: |
| Nintengirls: Brunette and Friends? |
Remember not to let your precious child eat spaghetti out of the garbage during walks. |
Seriously, yeah. We're getting there.
The reason that I find The Idol M@ster so interesting is that it represents a next-level step for the entire moé cult -- at least as it relates to video games. The two most interesting bits (the card reader and touchscreen) are missing from the Xbox version, but these seem like such logical progressions of interactivity that it's a wonder that nobody's delivered a home version of them yet. Virtual girls that you can actually touch -- if they let you. Photos of them that you print out and carry around in your pocket. I'm thinking something like a DS; a girl you can take along with you, who's always there for you.
The internet connection in idolm@ster (btw I cry when I masturbate) was a natural progression too, but it's really only used for audition competitions and rankings. I think that the real key is going to be in user-created content . . . a MMORPG dating sim, where you can be a girl or a guy, or pretend to be . . . people competing for the best girls, or to be the best girls. Right now, that's where the illusion falls apart in dating sim games -- eventually you've played all of the scenarios, and you're stuck buying another game.
Then again, maybe that's part of the allure. Always a new romance; always a first kiss; always a new chance for the love you never got in high school. In a sense, maybe moé is an attempt to rewrite or relive the past for a lot of lonely people. Or maybe it's an attempt to legitimize some seriously dark and unspeakable fantasies. Or maybe it's an attempt to celebrate innocence. Or maybe it's an attempt to cynically market to a desperate fanbase. Or maybe it's just the averaging of a lot of basic urges from a homogenized group of soap-averse backpack enthusiasts.
Maybe a little of each. There's quite a lot of stuff that gets the moé label slapped on. |
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luvcraft
buy my game buy my game me me me
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Cobrastan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:43 pm |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
| The reason that I find The Idol M@ster so interesting is that it represents a next-level step for the entire moé cult -- at least as it relates to video games. The two most interesting bits (the card reader and touchscreen) are missing from the Xbox version, but these seem like such logical progressions of interactivity that it's a wonder that nobody's delivered a home version of them yet. Virtual girls that you can actually touch -- if they let you. Photos of them that you print out and carry around in your pocket. I'm thinking something like a DS; a girl you can take along with you, who's always there for you. |
For a long time I wanted to make a "kidnapped little girl locked up in your basement" virtual pet parody game, just for the shock factor, but I could never quite bring myself to do it.
| klikbeep wrote: |
| I think that the real key is going to be in user-created content . . . a MMORPG dating sim, where you can be a girl or a guy, or pretend to be . . . people competing for the best girls, or to be the best girls. Right now, that's where the illusion falls apart in dating sim games -- eventually you've played all of the scenarios, and you're stuck buying another game. |
http://www.invertedcastle.com/archives/2006/04/25/im-exchange-otd/
| klikbeep wrote: |
| In a sense, maybe moé is an attempt to rewrite or relive the past for a lot of lonely people. |
I would say that the majority of popular media is an attempt to rewrite or relive the past for a lot of lonely people. |
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:51 pm |
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| Quote: |
| http://www.invertedcastle.com/archives/2006/04/25/im-exchange-otd/ |
o_O
So it's not a PC-PC affair at all... It always seemed like it was.
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| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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Levi
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:19 pm |
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| Is it incorrect to assume that the reason for the loli aesthetic in the first place was the inherent irony of cute things performing violent acts? Isn't it for this reason that the screams of agony are so effective in Final Fantasy Tactics? I know it's not loli per se, but this thread seems to be a moe/loli/SD free for all, and I think the reasoning is applicable for all the relevant parties anyway. |
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luvcraft
buy my game buy my game me me me
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Cobrastan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:19 pm |
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| Levi wrote: |
| Is it incorrect to assume that the reason for the loli aesthetic in the first place was the inherent irony of cute things performing violent acts? |
If by "loli" you mean "moe", then I think it's more just a natural progression of the graphic styles that communicate a sense of "fun". Mario in SMB3 is much cuter than Mario in SMB1, and Mario in Sunshine is even cuter still. Watching children play is significantly more whimsical and carefree and fun than watching Die Hard. Thus, since most games want to convey a sense of whimsy and fun, they star children or child-like characters. When a game wants to feel serious and dour (HL2, God of War, Contra), it stars serious characters and looks more like Die Hard. Bloodless combat or shooting pink bulllets at goofy monsters looks a lot more like childhood play than "violent acts"; with the sole exception of the parody video Pirate Baby's Cabana Battle Street Fight 2006, I've never seen any bloody decapitations or any other sort of gore in cute games. |
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:22 am |
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| luvcraft wrote: |
| If by "loli" you mean "moe", then I think it's more just a natural progression of the graphic styles that communicate a sense of "fun". Mario in SMB3 is much cuter than Mario in SMB1, and Mario in Sunshine is even cuter still. Watching children play is significantly more whimsical and carefree and fun than watching Die Hard. Thus, since most games want to convey a sense of whimsy and fun, they star children or child-like characters. When a game wants to feel serious and dour (HL2, God of War, Contra), it stars serious characters and looks more like Die Hard. Bloodless combat or shooting pink bulllets at goofy monsters looks a lot more like childhood play than "violent acts"; with the sole exception of the parody video Pirate Baby's Cabana Battle Street Fight 2006, I've never seen any bloody decapitations or any other sort of gore in cute games. |
I don't think this definition of moe covers characters like Saber from Fate/Stay Night. Child-like play may indeed explain some aspects of moe, but it also highlights the differences between moe and loli. Like a Venn diagram, they're related but not identical.
As for bloody decapitations in cute games, there's Metal Slug, which sardonically plays the cute card. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:17 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| So it's not a PC-PC affair at all... It always seemed like it was. |
Hm. Well, I guess they could keep updating it with new material from some sort of team of frantically typing writers, but I feel like user-created would be the only thing to keep it truly moving in a persistent and free-form way.
| Quote: |
| I know it's not loli per se, but this thread seems to be a moe/loli/SD free for all, and I think the reasoning is applicable for all the relevant parties anyway. |
Well, yeah . . . I think that's because you've got quite a sweeping gradient between totally innocent depictions and totally sexualized ones, and everyone is going to have a slightly different definition of where the line is. I guess that's why it's such a polarizing topic. |
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:54 pm |
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| Quote: |
| I don't think this definition of moe covers characters like Saber from Fate/Stay Night. |
Since when was Saber considered moe? She's an adult.
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| udoschuermann wrote: |
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:20 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't think this definition of moe covers characters like Saber from Fate/Stay Night. |
Since when was Saber considered moe? She's an adult. |
Moe isn't restricted to characters that look like little girls. Those get the most press, but moe covers a wide range of ages (and I don't mean "she just looks like a little girl" age). I'd say a large portion of galge focus on characters in the 14-17 range- both "official" age and appearance-age (like Tamaki from To Heart 2). If you mean strictly over-18 adults, there are fewer, but characters like Yomiko Readman from Read or Die are moe.
I readily admit moe tends to focus on youthful looks. But I think the internet English use of the word is becoming pejorative, and as such, focused on its nastiest possible meaning. |
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:38 pm |
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The Internet does that to a lot of things. "Hentai" doesn't actually mean "cartoon porn," and yet that's what the Internet uses the word for.
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Takashi
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:02 pm |
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| Maxson wrote: |
| If you mean strictly over-18 adults, there are fewer, but characters like Yomiko Readman from Read or Die are moe. |
Is "moe" or becomes "moe"? I don't feel like Yumiko is directly moe, but it fits on a particular theme and flavor of the bishoujo theme that favors moe-themed... fancruft? Simmilarly, Marmite characters aren't directly moe, but it's often approached that way. So, it's needed to separate characters that are born as moe and those that are made moe by the fans themselves.
Relating to age, for example, there is alot of "moe" sentitivity on a good amount of the DOA cast, especially in the XBV games.
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!=
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: the planet of leather moomins
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:25 am |
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I didn't not really want to post in that thread, since I don't understand half of it, but couldn't the focus on children and "cute" things be merely a factor of 2d graphics?
Working on my supergame bakedown entry, I was originally trying to make a normally sized 2d character. But then I saw this wasn't making a very good use of the 4/3 screen we have: taking much more height than width, imbalanced and screenspace-hungry.
The obvious answer to that observation is to change the character's proportions, making your character squat rather than slim, short rather than tall. Either some sort of fantasy animal or children. |
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:41 am |
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| Takashi wrote: |
| Maxson wrote: |
| If you mean strictly over-18 adults, there are fewer, but characters like Yomiko Readman from Read or Die are moe. |
Is "moe" or becomes "moe"? I don't feel like Yumiko is directly moe, but it fits on a particular theme and flavor of the bishoujo theme that favors moe-themed... fancruft? Simmilarly, Marmite characters aren't directly moe, but it's often approached that way. So, it's needed to separate characters that are born as moe and those that are made moe by the fans themselves.
Relating to age, for example, there is alot of "moe" sentitivity on a good amount of the DOA cast, especially in the XBV games. |
I don't think strict categories of "born as moe" and "made moe" can be made. It's more a matter of degree, and as klikbeep noted, everyone has different definitions. For example, I think the Marimite characters are "born as moe" (the animated versions anyway).
Any attempt at an all-encompassing definition will need many different factors, and that's just too much work for something that's basically what Ken Akamatsu said it was- a vague feeling, not a hard-and-fast rule.
I don't think moe is inherently based on sex, it's just really easy to sexualize. And since straight-up moe gets old fast (Intentionally Wrong's theory that democratized game production leads to quick boredom and a need for something stronger), adding sex becomes more and more common. It's like women's professional tennis.
| /!= wrote: |
| The obvious answer to that observation is to change the character's proportions, making your character squat rather than slim, short rather than tall. Either some sort of fantasy animal or children. |
That'd certainly explain the characters the 8-bit systems got. Mix in an obsessed and inclusive fanbase and the loli doujin game becomes reality. Though I don't know if one created the other or if the two just work well together. |
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Levi
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:52 pm |
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So then chibi is moe now?
(the nouns in that sentence are staggering me right now) |
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Maxson
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:59 pm |
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| Levi wrote: |
So then chibi is moe now?
(the nouns in that sentence are staggering me right now) |
More like chibi + moe = extra special fetish time |
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luvcraft
buy my game buy my game me me me
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Cobrastan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:43 pm |
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| Levi wrote: |
| So then chibi is moe now? |
no no no, this is the thread where we throw around the words "chibi", "moe", "SD", "loli", "pedophilia" and "yukelele" as if they all mean exactly the same thing, but then refuse to define that same thing that they all mean.
By which I mean: I think this thread has spun out of control and is now worthless. :( |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:00 pm |
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| luvcraft wrote: |
| Levi wrote: |
| So then chibi is moe now? |
no no no, this is the thread where we throw around the words "chibi", "moe", "SD", "loli", "pedophilia" and "yukelele" as if they all mean exactly the same thing, but then refuse to define that same thing that they all mean.
By which I mean: I think this thread has spun out of control and is now worthless. :( |
Okay. To leave semantics on the shelf for a moment, and to try and tap the core of why I find this topic so interesting:
What massive psychological accident has happened to the True Hardcore 110% otaku, that they would forgo everything, everything, that normal people derive pleasure and meaning from, and instead fixate on a shared delusion? They give everything they are for the sheer unadulterated love of this . . . thing that we're trying to pin down. I guess it comes in various flavors, whatever it is, but it's got some sort of common thread that I just can't get a grip on. Is it the worship of innocence, or perfection, or youth? Or the hatred of it, by the looks of some of the darkest stuff? And why the same basic images, again and again and again?
It's like everyone looking for images of Christ, and seeing him everywhere -- now in this tree, now in that crumpled bit of newspaper. It's like the entirety of Akihabara is possessed by this ghost; they keep sketching out little slips of it, trying to nudge it closer to reality.
They fucking talk to it, man! They laugh to it and tell it secrets! They whoop and hum along with the music it's singing inside their heads!
I've seen people get tattoos in America for . . . you know, the ColecoVision Roller Controller or whatever, and they are HARDCORE.
But . . . these otaku are fucking DYING for this stuff. They are giving their entire lives, they are fully orienting themselves to the pursuit of IT, they will die with IT on their lips, and the last fade-out burning across their optic nerves will be for one last final look at one last final smile on one last final face of whatever the hell IT is.
THE MELANCHOLY OF HARUHI SUZUMIYA: EPISODE 9 |
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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luvcraft
buy my game buy my game me me me
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Cobrastan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:35 pm |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
| THE MELANCHOLY OF HARUHI SUZUMIYA: EPISODE 9 |
it sounds like you're speaking from firsthand observation of moe-obsessed otaku. If you are, could you please tell us more about it, specifically the social effects that we outside of Japan do not see, and thus can only judge it on its artistic merit? |
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Sub
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:04 pm |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
THE MELANCHOLY OF HARUHI SUZUMIYA: EPISODE 9 |
This is the episode where they try to outdo the elevator scene in Evangelion but don't quite make it.
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