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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:34 am |
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I... don't see anything wrong with this.
Would the offended parties please speak with me via PM or email as to why this is an inappropriate frontpage post? I mean I guess I'm not so educated about the subject matter here so maybe I'm missing something. My only problem is that it's a double post, really.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:47 am |
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The thing is -- no, not everyone who is playing (or even making) these games is getting off on it sexually. But you can't deny that in all of these games -- and the subgenre of anime from which their characters come from -- underage girls are sexualized. Panty shots, camel toes, enormous breasts, skimpy outfits: it's all really fucking creepy. I find it hard to defend any of that as just being "cute". It's creepy and weird and it makes the games difficult to enjoy for some people.
Little girls can be presented as cute in a manner that's genuinely endearing and likable and not sexualized at all -- see Pearly in Phoenix Wright, for instance. There's a huuuuuuge difference between this:
and this:
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:14 am |
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it gets hard to tell after awhile
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:15 pm |
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| BotageL wrote: |
I apologize for somewhat snapping earlier in this thread - it was late and I had a headache.
However, I will attempt to clarify my complaints with James' post here:
- He immedietly goes for the "oh those wacky animu fans and their obsession with all things Japanese being better" stereotype. Commence eye-rolling.
- Whips out the "all of these games involve prepubescent girls" stereotype in the second paragraph.
- Brings in the usual "hey guys Japan is fucked up and creates pedophiles- I MEAN 'fans', just look at all the creepy costume cafes and shit man. ISN'T THAT ZANY?!" bullshit.
- Equates all portrayal of any girl that doesn't look like an american supermodel with the lol-tastic "moe" trend, which is only sometimes (okay, usually) linked to pedophilia.
You lack tact, you do little more than trot out old stereotypes for shits 'n' giggles, you offer no insight into any of this, and don't even talk about what particular games offended you so so one could properly respond to your claims of "oh them jap doujin games are all pedo-bait except three or four stock freeware games everyone and their dog already knows about." |
Why don't you present some counter examples or arguments. What you say may be true but based on the things I've seen from the doujin scene in Japan James is pretty much right on with a lot of his observations. Of course I don't have much knowledge when it comes to this stuff, so... educate me!
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:36 pm |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
No, that's me -- Brendan! Brendan Lee. I am holding a bag of pork rinds in that photo! Boy, do I look happy. |
Not just pork rinds -- microwavable pork rinds!
The first time I came across those was a very joyful moment. I got them as a birthday present for the bassist in my band.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:25 pm |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| klikbeep wrote: |
No, that's me -- Brendan! Brendan Lee. I am holding a bag of pork rinds in that photo! Boy, do I look happy. |
Not just pork rinds -- microwavable pork rinds!
The first time I came across those was a very joyful moment. I got them as a birthday present for the bassist in my band. |
Man, so how do they work? I never bought them. Is there condensation in there that puffs them up, or what? Are they soft or crispy? |
I have no idea! I'm way too terrified of the holy power of microwavable pork rinds to ever actually TRY them. I reckon they inflated like a bag of popcorn or something. No telling how it tastes though.
I can't eat pork rinds because they will forever pale before the glory that is cracklins
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:03 pm |
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This is really interesting! Thanks for posting it.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:24 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| klikbeep wrote: |
| Making expensive games that won't turn profits? Not being flip, here -- just . . . is that what you mean? |
No, no. I mean, are there videogame concepts that could be successful that somehow don't make use of the wish-fulfillment underlying structure? |
Well, to be frank, I think the "wish-fulfillment" thing isn't a problem in and of itself -- some of the greatest films ever made are also escapist fantasy, after all. I reckon what we need is a game that does both at once, and perfectly -- can supply deeply satisfying wish fulfillment (which, I should note, doesn't necessarily entail having Gruff McHardBody or Mary McMoePanties as the protagonist) along with a dramatically/intellectually/emotionally challenging/engaging scenario. Along with whatever other unknowns might be associated with this idealized "great artistic game", of course.
The problem right now is that no such game exists to be a role model -- to demonstrate that an (nominally) original IP can appeal to its built-in audience while still maintaining artistic excellence. And so in the mean time you have two scenarios: one is well meaning people who want to make a good game but shoehorn it into existing archetypes which are guaranteed to be appealing to the target audience; the other is soulless hacks who are only interested in producing half-baked schlock that sells based on license on image. The former produces games like Gears of War and Asuka Burning Fest, and the latter produces BloodRayne and [insert random gundam shovelware title here].
As far this messianic game that I've been alluding to, Half Life 2 and Shadow of the Colossus are the two closest things that come to mind, but they both have significant flaws (SotC in its gameplay, HL2 in its narrative). These flaws don't ruin the game and they don't keep them from being great, but a the sort of game I'm thinking about would have to transcend those sorts of problems as well.
This is a good thread~!
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:43 pm |
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| klikbeep wrote: |
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| I think the "wish-fulfillment" thing isn't a problem in and of itself -- some of the greatest films ever made are also escapist fantasy, after all. |
Sure -- but not all of them. Games are judged by criteria that is completely out of whack with the desire for the medium to grow and challenge. The audience always has to get a Satisfying Experience. The thing is supposed to be enjoyable, or it sucks (alt: blows). The ethos-challenging and worldview-rattling of the art world can't be mapped onto gaming, because the customer is always Right.
I . . . I have an article coming about this. A trifle excited about it!
| Quote: |
| As far this messianic game that I've been alluding to, Half Life 2 and Shadow of the Colossus are the two closest things that come to mind, but they both have significant flaws (SotC in its gameplay, HL2 in its narrative). These flaws don't ruin the game and they don't keep them from being great, but a the sort of game I'm thinking about would have to transcend those sorts of problems as well. |
Okay . . . but basically you just want a Very Good Game. 10s where there are 9s and 8s. My point isn't that games aren't Totally Rad (They Are So Rad!), it's that they're trapped in a horrific box of industry control, stale archetypes, and nostalgic masturbation. You might as well throw Panty-tan in your v-scroll shooter; she's not hurting anything. How does her presence mar the otherwise Very Worthwhile pursuit of dodging hit boxes?
It's like raging against the presence of Lucky on the box of Lucky Charms. Goofy, sure. Embarrassing-ish.
But consider the fucking product. |
Well, the thing is, I think in order for the type of game you want to become possible, we first need the sort of game I'm talking about. Something to break some new ground, blow a few doors open, release some floodgates, etc. A game which will demonstrate that "GAMEPLAY AWESOME GRAPHICS EXCELLENT" are not the only things that can sell a game.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:19 pm |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| Klikbeep, you're right that even the flawless game that Toups describes is just more meat for the grinder. Profiteers looking for a template to exploit will be with us as long as games cost money to make. I'm curious to see what games could accomplish if they didn't have to worry about profitability, and I'm not sure that we'll ever find out. |
Here's the thing -- there are plenty of developers out there who are "profiteers" as you put it, but there are plenty of other developers who are well-meaning and who just want to make good games. I'm thinking of studios like Epic and SCE Santa Monica, Rockstar Games, and on the other side of the pond studios like Irem, Punchline, and internal teams of larger dev's like Team Silent. These studios have produced games such as Gears of War, God of War, GTA: San Andreas, Steambot Chronicles, Rule of Rose, and the Silent Hill 2 -- all games which, to varying degrees, have many elements of artistic merit, but, for varying reasons in varying areas, default to archaic gameplay themes, mechanics, story themes, character types, etc., not because they particularly contribute or complement the game's concept but because they are well-known design tropes to fall back on. All of these games start, however, with very compelling concepts, either thematically or mechanically, and if there were more games like Half Life 2 or SotC which are so purely designed around a single concept, and every element -- level design, characters, plot, art direction, etc -- is tuned to support that concept... I don't know! I think what I'm saying is this game would have to show that it ain't broke but it's still worth fixing anyway. In other words to demonstrate to these small-but-well-intentioned studios (granted not all of them are that small) that taking risks is okay -- that you don't need to rely on what's known to sell to sell.
I mean, it's not as if I'm expecting the schlock to disappear, nor do I really want it to. I think what we all want is there to be a more defined alternative. As many others have said, a genre of "highbrow" games. Even the huge juggernaut studios in the 40's would put forth money for "prestige" films, because every now and then one of those "prestige" films would be a bigger hit than any of their regular blockbusters. I just want to see something similar start happening with games.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:07 pm |
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...if you really want it, yeah.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:33 pm |
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it is done!!
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