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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:32 pm |
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And me just back from Comiket.
Man . . . still trying to digest that place. One thing that seemed very interesting to me about the doujin scene -- and actually by extension, Akihabara itself -- is that the otaku hang together much better than they do in the West. In Japan, being into games or manga or anime or cosplay or any otaku thing really kind of lumps you into the same pot - - one of them. As such, everyone seems to have kind of a live and let live thing going on, and it all mingles right out in the open. People just kind of see what they feel like seeing.
They're building a whole freaking new world in that place. It's like one huge shared vision, 24/7. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:48 am |
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Pop Music and Animated Bestiality: NO THANKS!!
I saw a video. Partially animated. Pop song. Pretty good stuff -- definitely had a modern edge to it. Then I noticed something. Inferred animated bestiality. That is fucking sick. I know that it might appeal to all of the furry humping pervert basement dweller net clicker sidewinder Japanophile wankoff perverts out there, but seriously. Grow up and get a job. And not one where you touch animated animals.
Anyway, that girl. I saw her on American Idol, not because I watch that show, which I totally don't, because it's full of Britney Spears wannabes and fake plastic people that are huge jerks. But it was on by accident at my friend's house, where I go a lot, because that's where we're working on our JAMMA cabinet, and somebody accidentally hit the remote with their foot, and the TV clicked on, and I made the connection. Then I closed my eyes, and sort of held my hand behind my back, and I walked backward at the TV until I could turn it off so I wouldn't have to look at it.
I asked my friend how something like this could happen. He didn't have a good answer for me. He said something about a guy who I'd never heard of, and I don't want to know anything about the person at all, because inferred animated bestiality is completely gross.
Man, what is the deal with it!?!? I would be really interested to know more about what could cause someone to make and broadcast something like this, except it is COMPLETELY WRONG and also SICK so I am not interested.
What do you think??
SO EXCUSE ME WHILE I GO TAKE A SHOWER |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:45 am |
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What's up, James? ^_^ Hello!
I was kind of making a little joke there (see previous post)!
I guess I'm just trying to figure out your tone here. Is moé in doujin games something you find disturbing and confusing and want to understand? Was it just sort of a general venting about stuff you dislike? Man, stuff that people dislike -- there's a bottomless well for you!
Your whole angry attitude about stuff is pretty funny! But~~! Don't you think that you've kind of wrapped up the discussion before it starts when you do that? Basically, anyone who might want to try laying out information for you already feels on the defensive.
I find the gross stuff pretty gross, but I'm fascinated as to how it's so firmly intertwined with other aspects of otaku fancruft here. It's just that anyone that might be inclined to "rap" with you might feel a little put-off by your kind of full-on attitude!
Why did you imply that I am fat and pimply and bearded and wearing a kimono, James? |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:52 pm |
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| Mr. Mechanical wrote: |
| Oh God klikbeep wins this thread. |
Man, I don't want to WIN. I just want to know what's going ON. Nobody EVER tells me what's going on. It's pretty much a recurring theme. I feel like the only man without a peg leg at the Pirate Disco.
James, please tell me why you strongly implied all of those things about me. They are COMPLETELY wrong ideas. Where did you get all of those ideas James if it was from a person maybe I could talk to them |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:33 pm |
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| luvcraft wrote: |
| I don't know why he picked on you, though, klikbeep. Everyone knows that you really look like Orlando Bloom as drawn by Tom of Finland. |
Or a Chia Pet as cut by Hawkes of Savile Row. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:23 pm |
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No, that's me -- Brendan! Brendan Lee. I am holding a bag of pork rinds in that photo! Boy, do I look happy.
Boy, somebody musta switched your refrigerator Post-Its, or something! That happened to me once, and I went to the doctor to try and get a dozen eggs! Whoops!
Hey James -- what did you use to make your avatar? Is it a loop, or will it stop eventually? Because I've been looking at it for a while now, and no end in sight! |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:05 pm |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| klikbeep wrote: |
No, that's me -- Brendan! Brendan Lee. I am holding a bag of pork rinds in that photo! Boy, do I look happy. |
Not just pork rinds -- microwavable pork rinds!
The first time I came across those was a very joyful moment. I got them as a birthday present for the bassist in my band. |
Man, so how do they work? I never bought them. Is there condensation in there that puffs them up, or what? Are they soft or crispy?
| Mr Mustache wrote: |
| Separating form from content is a tricky thing. I don't think it works. If a game is a chore to look at, it will be a chore to play. |
I guess what's really interesting to me is how closely aligned the aesthetic is. While I think moé is still kind of a word looking for a definition - - I've heard it applied to more than just lolita types - - they sure do like to gussy up their pastel shooters.
I'm not sure if the whole moé thing is a labor or love or just clever marketing to a solid fanbase. Maybe a little of both. I've heard some theories floated that it'll burn itself out -- I mean, how many different times can you put a different-colored hat on a character and call her someone new?
Then again, I figure it probably would have by now if it was gonna. Seems to be concentrating . . . building to something.
Something kinda worrying. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:35 pm |
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| RecessRapist wrote: |
| (I started using this SN recently) |
And it clearly marks you as an individual of class and distinction! No doubt you'll soon be receiving a lot of unsolicited advertorials from wealth management firms. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:16 pm |
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| luvcraft wrote: |
| q 3 wrote: |
| Nintengirls: Brunette and Friends? |
Remember not to let your precious child eat spaghetti out of the garbage during walks. |
Seriously, yeah. We're getting there.
The reason that I find The Idol M@ster so interesting is that it represents a next-level step for the entire moé cult -- at least as it relates to video games. The two most interesting bits (the card reader and touchscreen) are missing from the Xbox version, but these seem like such logical progressions of interactivity that it's a wonder that nobody's delivered a home version of them yet. Virtual girls that you can actually touch -- if they let you. Photos of them that you print out and carry around in your pocket. I'm thinking something like a DS; a girl you can take along with you, who's always there for you.
The internet connection in idolm@ster (btw I cry when I masturbate) was a natural progression too, but it's really only used for audition competitions and rankings. I think that the real key is going to be in user-created content . . . a MMORPG dating sim, where you can be a girl or a guy, or pretend to be . . . people competing for the best girls, or to be the best girls. Right now, that's where the illusion falls apart in dating sim games -- eventually you've played all of the scenarios, and you're stuck buying another game.
Then again, maybe that's part of the allure. Always a new romance; always a first kiss; always a new chance for the love you never got in high school. In a sense, maybe moé is an attempt to rewrite or relive the past for a lot of lonely people. Or maybe it's an attempt to legitimize some seriously dark and unspeakable fantasies. Or maybe it's an attempt to celebrate innocence. Or maybe it's an attempt to cynically market to a desperate fanbase. Or maybe it's just the averaging of a lot of basic urges from a homogenized group of soap-averse backpack enthusiasts.
Maybe a little of each. There's quite a lot of stuff that gets the moé label slapped on. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:17 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| So it's not a PC-PC affair at all... It always seemed like it was. |
Hm. Well, I guess they could keep updating it with new material from some sort of team of frantically typing writers, but I feel like user-created would be the only thing to keep it truly moving in a persistent and free-form way.
| Quote: |
| I know it's not loli per se, but this thread seems to be a moe/loli/SD free for all, and I think the reasoning is applicable for all the relevant parties anyway. |
Well, yeah . . . I think that's because you've got quite a sweeping gradient between totally innocent depictions and totally sexualized ones, and everyone is going to have a slightly different definition of where the line is. I guess that's why it's such a polarizing topic. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:00 pm |
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| luvcraft wrote: |
| Levi wrote: |
| So then chibi is moe now? |
no no no, this is the thread where we throw around the words "chibi", "moe", "SD", "loli", "pedophilia" and "yukelele" as if they all mean exactly the same thing, but then refuse to define that same thing that they all mean.
By which I mean: I think this thread has spun out of control and is now worthless. :( |
Okay. To leave semantics on the shelf for a moment, and to try and tap the core of why I find this topic so interesting:
What massive psychological accident has happened to the True Hardcore 110% otaku, that they would forgo everything, everything, that normal people derive pleasure and meaning from, and instead fixate on a shared delusion? They give everything they are for the sheer unadulterated love of this . . . thing that we're trying to pin down. I guess it comes in various flavors, whatever it is, but it's got some sort of common thread that I just can't get a grip on. Is it the worship of innocence, or perfection, or youth? Or the hatred of it, by the looks of some of the darkest stuff? And why the same basic images, again and again and again?
It's like everyone looking for images of Christ, and seeing him everywhere -- now in this tree, now in that crumpled bit of newspaper. It's like the entirety of Akihabara is possessed by this ghost; they keep sketching out little slips of it, trying to nudge it closer to reality.
They fucking talk to it, man! They laugh to it and tell it secrets! They whoop and hum along with the music it's singing inside their heads!
I've seen people get tattoos in America for . . . you know, the ColecoVision Roller Controller or whatever, and they are HARDCORE.
But . . . these otaku are fucking DYING for this stuff. They are giving their entire lives, they are fully orienting themselves to the pursuit of IT, they will die with IT on their lips, and the last fade-out burning across their optic nerves will be for one last final look at one last final smile on one last final face of whatever the hell IT is.
THE MELANCHOLY OF HARUHI SUZUMIYA: EPISODE 9 |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:31 pm |
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Well. And now I'm whoring, but:
I did write this. I think that there's mo(r)é to be written.
You know, Religion is a funny word. I feel like it conjures up specific ideas about right and wrong. I don't really sense those in this . . . otakudom-thing. Religions usually have defined precepts.
Maybe Look, But Don't Touch ?
It sounds really trite, but it seems more like another view of Reality.
?
Or maybe a Delusion?
?
Or maybe a kind of filter layered over this reality?
?
Or maybe a security blanket?
?
Or maybe a Whore?
?
Maybe I need to learn a little more Japanese.
| Quote: |
| The elevator scene is legendary. |
I never made it all the way through EVA. Can you give me the gist of the scene? I am interested! |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:00 pm |
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| Yeah, Gainax and the money saving, huh? See also: Gunbuster. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:20 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
It strikes me that wish fulfillment is the underlying shortcut, here--the unifying principle of making games cheaply that will make mad profits.
So, here's a question: how do you make the alternative appealing? |
Making expensive games that won't turn profits? Not being flip, here -- just . . . is that what you mean? |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:00 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| klikbeep wrote: |
| Making expensive games that won't turn profits? Not being flip, here -- just . . . is that what you mean? |
No, no. I mean, are there videogame concepts that could be successful that somehow don't make use of the wish-fulfillment underlying structure? |
Ah. Actually, I don't think it's possible. Since all games are judged based on how much "fun" they are, they shut off huge ranges of possible expression. Games are the only - - and I'm being charitable here - - art form that caters specifically to audience demands.
I suppose you do have times when stuff slips through the cracks, but the current system certainly doesn't encourage it. The audience meets production squarely in the middle, and you can calculate what game will sell to what person almost to the man. Kind of neat for accounting purposes. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:37 pm |
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| Joe wrote: |
| Takeshi's Challenge is a non-wish fulfillment game. |
Quite right! (b^^)b I have a rather - - by my standards - - clever article waiting in the old Insert Credit queue on this very topic. It's got more edge than a pack of Gillette Fusion refills. Please take a moment and read it when it appears. I'll try and cough up a whoring link at the appropriate time.
| Maxson wrote: |
| Aw thanks guys. |
There might be something to this Internet after all!
| Quote: |
| Would a more varied audience make non-wish-fulfillment games viable? The variety of books and movies available must be based on some theory of profitability- smaller profits for smaller markets, no doubt, but still profitable. We know there is a market for non-wish-fulfillment games- some of the people in this thread seem interested- but it's probably not profitable right now. |
Interesting question. Honestly, with conditions as they are, I'm not really sure what kind of audience variance there is to exploit out there. People keep sniffing for gold in the Casuals, but that's really just normal everyday everybody discovering old game concepts (Wii Sports!) with more intuitive control schemata. If you're looking for the game market equivalent of Guy With Glasses Who Scratches His Chin At Record Shops . . . well, I'm pretty sure Select Button is more or less it. Given the costs of development . . . not really a viable option.
| Quote: |
| I think one way to create a varied gaming market would be to expand the basic gaming market- more people would introduce more varied demands. This would be a counterbalance to the "democratized game production" theory. A larger market could make non-standard production viable, but a larger market also goes through new ideas extremely quickly. |
True, but there are basically two ways to expand the market -- you can either make something so fresh and innovative that people voluntarily overcome their mental blocks to check it out (Katamari Model), or you cater to the lowest common denominator (Tits Model). Of course, both of those involve higher amounts of risk than just selling to a smaller, carefully cultivated marketplace where all of the variables are more or less known (Moé/Madden Model [MMM]). It makes far more sense to rehash and retread.
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| I think the "wish-fulfillment" thing isn't a problem in and of itself -- some of the greatest films ever made are also escapist fantasy, after all. |
Sure -- but not all of them. Games are judged by criteria that is completely out of whack with the desire for the medium to grow and challenge. The audience always has to get a Satisfying Experience. The thing is supposed to be enjoyable, or it sucks (alt: blows). The ethos-challenging and worldview-rattling of the art world can't be mapped onto gaming, because the customer is always Right.
I . . . I have an article coming about this. A trifle excited about it!
| Quote: |
| As far this messianic game that I've been alluding to, Half Life 2 and Shadow of the Colossus are the two closest things that come to mind, but they both have significant flaws (SotC in its gameplay, HL2 in its narrative). These flaws don't ruin the game and they don't keep them from being great, but a the sort of game I'm thinking about would have to transcend those sorts of problems as well. |
Okay . . . but basically you just want a Very Good Game. 10s where there are 9s and 8s. My point isn't that games aren't Totally Rad (They Are So Rad!), it's that they're trapped in a horrific box of industry control, stale archetypes, and nostalgic masturbation. You might as well throw Panty-tan in your v-scroll shooter; she's not hurting anything. How does her presence mar the otherwise Very Worthwhile pursuit of dodging hit boxes?
It's like raging against the presence of Lucky on the box of Lucky Charms. Goofy, sure. Embarrassing-ish.
But consider the fucking product. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:43 am |
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| Quote: |
| Well, the thing is, I think in order for the type of game you want to become possible, we first need the sort of game I'm talking about. Something to break some new ground, blow a few doors open, release some floodgates, etc. A game which will demonstrate that "GAMEPLAY AWESOME GRAPHICS EXCELLENT" are not the only things that can sell a game. |
Toups, you know I respect you, dogg. You know our chat up on the Xbox Live -- that wasn't playin'. But I gotta disagree with your opinion.
This Splendid game that you're talking about . . . well, no doubt it would be very Rad indeed -- perhaps landing squarely in the bounds of the mythical Ultra Rad. Unfortunately, it would just be proof that the current system works. Your game would be filleted and copied and recycled until people began to question the worth of the original game.
That, and stuff just isn't given the opportunity to age in this medium. While your awesome game would certainly be hot shit in the beginning, it wouldn't be able to sustain that kind of reputation over time as the Relentless March of Technology (and Joe Gamer's March of Boredom with It) shuffled along. Nobody looks to the past -- at least, not enough nobodies to form a financially solid base.
Man, innovation beset on all sides these days. |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:17 am |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| I knew benroit or whatever his name was was a pedophile as soon as I saw his avatar! |
You're almost there, JamesE! Just one more virgin shit-stained cockfag cuntcock fagshit pedoGeddon hi Tim furry-licker volley for the win! Do it! DO IT!!
You can still loop this thread around to worthless.
There is still time, JamesE.
EVERYONE IS PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU RIGHT NOW.
Also! If you misspell a name in your post (Like 'JarnesE') people won't be able to search for their name using the search function! That's an important thing to remember -- people love searching for their name on the internet.
Smoking pile of tires aside, did you and Tim ever get that Sonic article going? I wanted to read that.
| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
| I want to try paraphrasing the relevant bits of conversation: |
Seems to sum up my bits quite well!
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| Even the huge juggernaut studios in the 40's would put forth money for "prestige" films, because every now and then one of those "prestige" films would be a bigger hit than any of their regular blockbusters. I just want to see something similar start happening with games. |
I think this is a great idea, but I think that there are a few logistics problems:
1) There needs to be some way that everyone can have access to a title. The fragmentation of consoles, the disappearance of arcades, PC/MAC gaming . . . there's very little way for anything to reach everybody. Books are universal, because they give you their content delivery system with the product. Visual media -- paintings, photography -- work the same way. Movies and music have higher barriers to universality, though far less than gaming. We've got, what -- 3 major next-gen consoles, 2 portables, PCs, and then legacy gaming for older systems . . .
2) Games are long, probably by necessity. The ones you describe provide hours and hours of entertainment, which means huge budgets. Probably it would be better to train people to expect a much shorter game that was cheaper to produce. You'd have to sell it cheaper too, though, so maybe that would eat up your incentive. Dunno. Have heard that there have been moves in this direction.
3) You don't really want too much innovation, because then things get difficult to calculate. A company knows what a third Halo will sell, but it's a lot trickier to figure out what a Memento-esque Grandmother simulator covering 5 generations of immigrants is going to do. How much do you fund something like that? How do you advertise it? |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:57 am |
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| JamesE wrote: |
Yeah, a one-liner jab represents a major diversion in this thread. Well done, your frantic straining (for making poos) has once again given the floor, and I cede to your fat goth timcloneness. Cool it off, screech.
Or: someone with a child-like avatar with big cutesy wutesy eyes, a fairy thing and a shapely bust is at least a tiny bit more likely to support getting off on looking at kids. They've already demonstrated an affinity towards sexualised yet infantalised characters.
I need to mail Tim (your infinitely superior genetic initeration) about that Sonic article. I'm really excited for it! |
Ah, that's the stuff. I am blowing you kisses! You should feel them on your neck just as you drift off to sleep tonight.
Have you written anything else? I went to your old Super Combo thing back in the day, but it doesn't seem to be updating. Do you have any 500-word blocks of stuff I could read? Bit out of bounds for the thread, maybe toss me a PM? |
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klikbeep
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:05 pm |
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| Maxson wrote: |
| Would you consider any previous times in gaming history as ones where highbrow games were encouraged? I'm wondering if two times in particular- the height of text-adventure games (some of the old Infocom ones, like Suspended, were interesting) and the height of EGA/VGA adventure games (when Sierra/Lucasarts made lots of them)- would fit your description. Both of these times featured serious graphical roadblocks, and both times arguably died out because these roadblocks were lifted. |
Hm! Man, yeah, I started thinking about IF games a lot lately. They're definitely able to be designed by one person on a nothing budget, and have a high ability to be ported cross-platform. Then again, there's a learning curve for parsers, and the games seem pretty outdated by today's standards.
Although I loved (love?) adventure games, I feel like they had some serious problems that doomed them. Why click the CREAM PIE on the ABOMINABLE SNOWMAN, and not the OLD BOOT? That, and the whole thing felt awfully on rails as you clicked around for hot spots.
How could you do and end-run around the majors? Something universal, compelling, and cheap enough to get everyone interested? A more universal format for interactive entertainment, out of Game Industry control.
Let's say a complete, 5-hour experience, delivery system included, for 20 US dollars. Something in line with a book purchase or a movie or a CD.
What kind of thing could that be? |
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