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Broco



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:18 am        Reply with quote

Adilegian wrote:

On other books: I loved Lolita, and I think it's one of the absolute best novels of the twentieth century. It panders to nothing but the belief that literary education makes a man more moral


Hmm, are you implying that Lolita teaches something about morality to its readers? I don't think it does. The novel carries different messages depending on how deeply one reads into it, and one is only able to take out of it the morality one already carries.

It's not really possible to understand the moral implications of Humbert's crime without insight into his victim's thoughts and feelings. But this is precisely the thing that Humbert tells us almost nothing about, despite going on and on in fantastic detail about her body and his own obsessions that he projects onto her. We know everything about Lolita but Dolores remains out of sight. The reader's only way to achieve moral understanding is to rely on what he himself imagines -- the text of the novel tells us nothing.

(Yes, there are a few tossed-off, poignant details -- for example, she cries every single time he rapes her. But do we really know anything about why she cries? Is it physical pain, is it shame, is it an existential emptiness that overcomes her in those moments? Humbert does not care and we do not know.)

By the way, in this connection, one of my favorite passages in Lolita is the following, an easy-to-miss gem hidden in Part 2:

Humbert wrote:
"In Kasbeam a very old barber gave me a very mediocre haircut: he babbled of a baseball-playing son of his, and, at every explodent, spat into my neck, and every now and then wiped his glasses on my sheet-wrap, or interrupted his tremulous scissor work to produce new paper clippings, and so inattentive was I that it came as a shock to realize as he pointed to an easeled photograph among the ancient gray lotions, that the mustached young ball player had been dead the last thirty years."


This passage could be said to summarize Humbert in a way, but it's also a pointed jab at the reader. Even if you're one of the few that recognized this passage as significant before having it pointed out to you in Nabokov's author's note, can you say the same about other passages in the book? Did you sympathize with Charlotte for the loss of her son, or were you too engaged with the plot to pay any attention to it? It is all too easy to read Lolita with as little attention and empathy as Humbert treats the Kasbeam barber.

Adilegian wrote:
and it even subverts that.


Yes, I wonder if that isn't a subtle poke at French literature, Humbert's speciality, which all too often is obsessed with style at the expense of humanity.

Adilegian wrote:
It's really shameful that the novel's been associated as a positive support of the perversity. It really hurts the general perception of the novel to associate it with a brand of child pornography, when, in fact, it's a story of one man's failure to understand his need for love.


Well, Lolita is among other things a novel about pedophilia, so I'm not really seeing the problem with the association. If anything I'm more bothered by the film which makes Lolita sixteen and thereby seriously distorts the story. Of course the pornographic terms "Lolita" and "Lolicon" make me wince, but considering what they refer to I would probably wince no matter what it was called.

Also, keep in mind that a pedophile reading Lolita would, I imagine, have a very different interpretation. He might focus on Humbert's misery rather than Dolores's, taking it as a tale of the unhappiness brought on by the social stigma against pedophilia. After all, if society accepted their relationship, Humbert would not be constantly blasting himself about his "monstrosity", and they could live out in the open and make friends instead of shuttling aimlessly in solitude from town to town. It could have been a happy relationship! And perhaps Lolita cries because she misses her mother?

You only arrived at your interpretation after peeling back many layers of misdirection. But the novel as seen by Humbert or his like is one of Lolita's faces, too.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:25 pm        Reply with quote

Adilegian wrote:
I don't think that the novel is that sparse on judgment.


Morality for me is more about empathy than judgement, so we're kind of talking at cross purposes here.

Adilegian wrote:
he sees his failure to love and also sees that he doesn't know how to overcome it.


He never says so in so many words. At any rate, I don't know if I want to go into the question of the reality of Humbert's apotheosis right now. I have no strong opinion either way.

Adilegian wrote:
The pedophile's reading of Lolita falls comfortably in the dregs.


Yes it does; I didn't mean to argue that the "pedophile reading" I proposed was valid, it's obviously a terrible misreading. My point was that, unlike most terrible misreadings, this one (or something like it) is quite intentionally contained in the novel as a layer of misdirection. It's therefore not really an act of misrepresentation to describe Lolita in subject-matter-centric terms -- because the novel misrepresents itself.

Adilegian wrote:
That is to say, it's assumed that Lolita in some way endorses the Lolicon crowd because the Lolicon crowd take its name as their banner.


Nabokov does not endorse it but Humbert (at least the unapotheosized, Part 1 Humbert) might, and isn't this Humbert's book too?

setzsez wrote:
Actually, she was fourteen in the movie (as was the actress).


Hmm, okay. I didn't watch the film too closely (or even entirely, to be honest). I should probably check it out again.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:31 pm        Reply with quote

option wrote:
Perfume by Patrick Suskind is a pretty incredible book.

I also love most works by Kafka.

Judging by these examples, does anyone have any reccomendations for me? When it comes to finding new reading, I struggle!


Some good books that come to mind as vaguely similar to those in some respects are, for Perfume, John Folwes's The Collector, and for Kafka, Kazuo Ishiguro's The Unconsoled or J.M. Coetzee's Elizabeth Costello. They're not really similar of course, but anyway I'm throwing them out there.

Also, it's always good to just read more Kafka. His less famous stuff, diaries included, is also amazing.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:14 am        Reply with quote

slipstream wrote:

What's there to get out of Nineteen Eighty-Four? I've read the book once or twice and it's hard to see justification for cult of personality surrounding this book. It's not prophetic in any meaningful way. Everything is so distorted and one-sided that it comes off as some libertarian adolescent's nightmare wrapped up in some nice prose.


I agree that 1984 has almost no value as literature, but I think it's excellent as a political tract. The book's world is basically an amalgam of the fascist and communist governments of Orwell's day, with some exaggeration for effect. And I would say not so much exaggeration, actually, as bringing things to their logical conclusion -- all the elements of the book, from Newspeak to two-minutes-hate, exist in totalitarian goverments in some form.

slipstream wrote:
Broco wrote:
Kazuo Ishiguro's The Unconsoled.

Is this good? I got a hardback copy at a free bookstore a few years ago and I feel like I ought to read it.


I think it's Ishiguro's masterpiece, personally, but opinions are polarized about it.

The thing about it that frustrates some people, I think, is that only does it not have dramatic momentum, it repeatedly and quite intentionally hooks the reader onto a subplot and then just when it seems about to reach a climax, it's cut off anticlimatically and with brazen illogic. Then there is a smooth segue into another interesting story which will also eventually be cut off, and so on for the entire novel. It's also written entirely in stilted, formal, distant prose. All this is done for very good reasons -- the structure of the novel reflects its themes -- but it's easy to see why some people can't stand it.

I've phrased the above to sound like bad things, but in the right frame of mind all this is totally awesome. For example, by "brazen illogic" I mean things like at one point, while driving to his destination, the protagonist runs into a literal brick wall which is senselessly built across the street. Or he spends hours preparing for an important speech, but after he steps up to the podium he only has time to say one sentence before the flimsy nightgown he is wearing (he was too rushed to get dressed that day) falls open and he finds himself naked in front of everybody.

And the individual stories themselves are fascinating, moving stuff, each of them deeply resonant in some way. I think the people that hate it are so lost in the forest that they forget to pay attention to the trees. I'd recommend if you read it that you savor it slowly, without attempting to find traditional drama or logic, and internalizing in advance the fact that any expectations you have about the plot will be thwarted.

That said, a safer place to start with Ishiguro is The Remains of the Day, his most famous novel, which has a traditionally formed narrative and is beloved by everyone who has a soul.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:17 am        Reply with quote

I've never got poems, myself. Try as I might, I can't generally see the advantage over prose. Most poems are really indirect and cryptic, but the only thing that achieves from my point of view is that every reader projects whatever they want onto the poem, and the text itself is almost an empty vessel. I overgeneralize I know, but...

The only verse I like is stuff like Eugene Onegin, that would work great as prose too. (That, and a contemporary poet called Mark Irwin, but that's only because something connects with me in his preferred imagery and it's really a whim rather than a sober critical assessment.)

I'm open to the possibility that this is a blind spot in my aesthetics -- a looking for the wrong thing -- rather than a failure of the form, but I can't see what exactly I should be appreciating. At least I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, since poetry barely sells, even in comparison to highbrow novels.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:44 pm        Reply with quote

Although I'm not very fond of Hard-Boiled Wonderland in general, I don't remember anything especially awful about Birnbaum's translation. Your complaints amount to saying that he likes to use formal expressions occasionally, and it's not clear to me that that's inappropriate for Murakami.

In fact the only thing that struck me about the translation was the clever rendering of kuroguro as "INKlings" -- a lesser translator might've gone for the literal rendering "black-blacks", and I appreciate the degree of effort and creativity that went into preserving many of the connotations there. (Admittedly it is offbeat, though.)
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Broco



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:16 pm        Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
chompers po pable wrote:
caveman, i think that "identity" is a major theme in Murakami's stories, in an existentialist sort of way. his characters seem to be in flux, identity wise (constantly)...and in that way, viewed from that angle, it more or less works.

Yeah, no. He's still boring as Hell. I've read Camus, Beckett, Hell, even Palahniuck if we're going straight for the hip writer talking about "identity" thing, and they've managed not to be total bores as well as having interesting stories to boot.

I have never, ever understood the fascination for Murakami.


Murakami is an anti- or at least un-intellectual author. If you're reading it expecting to see coherent thinking you're bound to be disappointed.

It's pretty much a gut thing. There are these undercurrents in Murakami that strongly resonate with a lot of people. He is able to find fantasy and wonder in the everyday and he makes life feel more meaningful, you could say. If you're not feeling it there's probably not anything anyone can do to defend it.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:19 am        Reply with quote

parkbench, at first I thought you were talking about actual Kafka there (as opposed to Kafka). The same thing is often said about his works.

There are literally thousands of books devoted to interpreting Kafka's pure symbols as allegories for God, Marxism, Judaism, sexuality, parent-child relations, whatever. They are all plausible but finally pretty unsatisfying. One recent critical essay I read argued that Kafka's symbols were designed intentionally to be fraught with strong yet undetermined meaning, goading the reader into endlessly, fruitlessly trying to interpret them -- much as the characters in the stories obsess over their own futile quests.

Kafka's first great story, The Judgement, is probably the worst in this regard. As I recall there even exists a book entitled Thirty Interpretations of Kafka's The Judgement. I myself tend to take most of Kafka's books more or less at face value, but when I first read that story I felt compelled to spend several hours rereading it over and over to concoct an elaborate explanation for it. It is just too perfectly tight and self-consistent and carries too many implications and undertones for it not to have some ultimate hidden meaning -- and yet you can't find it. I don't remember what I came up with anymore, except that it involved multiple layers of deceit and the claim that one character was an oblique renaming of the narrator (because of his shame, he externalized a part of himself). All this for a 10-page short story.

Of course, if Kafka had ever gone out and provided an "official" interpretation of anything, that would very much have cheapened his work.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:38 am        Reply with quote

Yeah Dickens kind of deserves a little birdy disrespect though.



"You would need to have a heart of stone not to laugh at the death of Little Nell." -- Oscar Wilde

(Ohhhh burn.)
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Broco



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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 4:50 am        Reply with quote

I also like Kierkegaard's way of creating multiple characters and ascribing different points of view to them. (Although, er, admittedly I haven't read him. But I like it in principle.)

As for things more recently written, J.M. Coetzee's Elizabeth Costello (which is halfway between a novel and a work of philosophy) also makes very effective use of the multiple character technique. What's particular about that one is that Elizabeth, as brilliant as she is, seems to be going a little crazy in her old age and her opinions are clearly extreme. So there is an unusually large distance between the opinions expressed and the author. The overall effect of the book is very unsettling -- like truth always has elements of falsity and falsity elements of truth, and they almost seem to blend together in all the ambiguity and complexity after a while.

I'm inclined to say methods like this are the only way to honestly philosophize, once you've accepted that philosophy is built on mud and it's mud all the way down.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:09 pm        Reply with quote

Yeah I like Hear The Wind Sing. It is better than Pinball and Wild Sheep in my personal opinion (I didn't much like those two either). It is very short, in brief fragments and disjointed compared to Murakami's later work, but the essence of what makes him good is there.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 4:09 am        Reply with quote

Just read Primo Levi's If This Is a Man (a.k.a. Survival in Auschwitz). At some level I did not really want to read it, but I'd been a great fan of Levi since I read The Periodic Table last year, and bought it along with A Tranquil Star. Now I can't stop thinking about death camps all day. But it was worth reading.

Code:
    [And] a dream full of horror has still not ceased to visit me, at sometimes frequent, sometimes longer, intervals. It is a dream within a dream, varied in detail, one in substance. I am sitting at a table with my family, or with friends, or at work, or in the green countryside; in short, in a peaceful relaxed environment, apparently without tension or affliction; yet I feel a deep and subtle anguish, the definite sensation of an impending threat. And in fact, as the dream proceeds, slowly and brutally, each time in a different way, everything collapses, and disintegrates around me, the scenery, the walls, the people, while the anguish becomes more intense and more precise. Now everything has changed into chaos; I am alone in the centre of a grey and turbid nothing, and now, I know what this thing means, and I also know that I have always known it; I am in the Lager once more, and nothing is true outside the Lager. All the rest was a brief pause, a deception of the senses, a dream; my family, nature in flower, my home. Now this inner dream, this dream of peace, is over, and in the outer dream, which continues, gelid, a well-known voice resounds: a single word, not imperious, but brief and subdued. It is the dawn command, of Auschwitz, a foreign word, feared and expected: get up, "Wstawàch."
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Broco



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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 5:56 am        Reply with quote

Yeah Murakami is generally so disconnected anyway that he doesn't gain that much from length. Unless you consider the disconnection itself to be a strength, as many people do with Wild Sheep Chase. But I think that's just mental jujitsu to try to explain why we persist in thinking it's so awesome despite being full of extravagant plot holes: it must be, we tell ourselves, that the plot holes themselves are somehow awesome. But I'm inclined to think it's more a question of "despite" than "because", and the short stories bear me out.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 3:54 am        Reply with quote

I've read about half of Nabokov's work, and I can say that Lolita is distinctly a level above his other work. Pale Fire -- and most of his other books, which are very cold and tend to revolve around complicated patterns, wordplay and narrative trickery -- is about on the level of Joyce, and similarly overrated by a vocal minority. Ada is passionate and filled with a vast amount of elaborate trickery but ultimately shallow and implausible. His autobiography has some great lines in it but I find it too unrevealing (as I recall it has been called the least informative autobiography ever written) and self-indulgent.

In Lolita Nabokov is both passionate and at the height of his analytical powers. The book is full of humanity (despite/because it has Nabokov's most monstrous narrator) and it is completely immune to reductionist analysis. The only real flaw with it is the unfortunate loss of narrative momentum in the second half, which probably leads a lot of people to stop reading at that point though the best is yet to come. (Nabokov very cleverly attempts to quash this particular criticism in the afterword by implying people who bring it up are shallow pornography-seekers, but don't let him get away with it!).
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Broco



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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:08 pm        Reply with quote

Since we're on the topic, the saddest novel I've ever read is Kazuo Ishiguro's The Remains of the Day.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:29 pm        Reply with quote

rf wrote:
Interesting stuff. I've wanted to like one of Nabokov's books other than Lolita for a fairly superficial reason: Lolita is so freaking popular. Its fame has caused so many people to read / "read" it, even people who don't care much about literature, that the statement "I like Lolita" doesn't suggest as much as it should about your taste/worldview to other people. People who love, say, Shakespeare probably also have this problem, since everyone "loves" Shakespeare, even people who barely know who he is.


Yes Lolita is popular because of its prurient subject and the (failed) Kubrick adaptation. That it is also Nabokov's best is a happy coincidence.


Last edited by Broco on Fri May 25, 2007 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:40 pm        Reply with quote

I actually like it on its own terms, but yeah it fails completely in terms of adapting Lolita the novel. Everything is either removed or weirdly distorted and there is almost no element of the novel that it carries over accurately. The overall experience is nowhere near as sublime.
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 6:28 pm        Reply with quote

Again, I didn't say "bad", I said "failed". And I'm only asking for an adaptation to at least carry over some of the spirit of the thing.

Okay, for instance. The Quilty murder is arguably the high point of the film, and I love it in itself. But it distorts the book in so many ways. The fact that it's a flashback shown at the beginning means that the long mystery as to whether Quilty actually exists or is a figment of Humbert's paranoid imagination is eliminated -- along with the whole "mystery-novel" element of Lolita, with all the subtle hints as to his existence ("Qu'il t'y", the Enchanted Hunters, etc). The misleading impression that Humbert will probably end up murdering either Charlotte or Lolita (since he admits to being a murderer on the first page, but doesn't specify who) is eliminated. Quilty is no longer drug-addled, and his murder is far less prolonged and bloody. The implication that Quilty is Humbert's doppelganger no longer exists. He appears as a cheerful fellow rather than a dark shadow dogging Humbert. I could list a similar litany of serious distortions on the subject of Lolita, Charlotte, and most of all Humbert himself, whose eloquent voice completely dominates the novel while he is reduced to silence in the film.

This isn't just fan whining about certain trivial details; everything that makes Lolita Lolita is lost. What is the point of making an adaptation of a masterpiece if you are not intending to preserve anything that makes it a masterpiece, but rather recreate another, merely good film from its bare outline? That is why I say the film is a failure.
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:54 pm        Reply with quote

Well yeah, of course, the "loyal" 1997 Lolita film, weighed down by a droning narration etc, was by all accounts (I haven't bothered seeing it personally) an even greater failure than Kubrick's. Actually I don't think it is even possible to succeed at adapting Nabokov.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:58 am        Reply with quote

Hmm... it's been several years since I read him, but I remember there was something clunky and schematic about D.H. Lawrence's characterization and morality that really rubbed me the wrong way.

running 5k wrote:
recently read the trial (kafka). deliberate but pitch-perfect translation by breon mitchell ... i regret not having gotten around to this sooner.


I recommend trying out all of Kafka's other work then! It's virtually all gold -- remarkably, there's hardly a bad word in the pile of recovered fragments. I have special affection for some of the underrated stuff, like Amerika and Blumfeld, An Elderly Bachelor.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:27 am        Reply with quote

Finally read Ian McEwan's On Chesil Beach. It's put me in a melancholy mood for most of the weekend.

McEwan's never written a bad word, but this is the first book of his that makes me think he might be a great writer as opposed to merely solid. There's a lucid, fearless beauty and simplicity to it. McEwan is maturing as a writer in an unexpected and wonderful direction: shedding complexity and gimmicks and affectations to yield a startlingly taut and powerful book.

Weird connection maybe, but one image that latched onto me from McEwan's previous book The Child in Time is the description of the nonexistent novel Lemonade, written by a character who is a writer. I barely even remember anything else about The Child in Time, but I remember that fake novel Lemonade which was only sketched out in a few sentences, this simple and powerful story of childhood affection and profound loss in a vivid natural setting. In some respects the concept of On Chesil Beach is similar, and I wonder if I am right in thinking that it's an evolution of Lemonade in McEwan's mind. At any rate, this is the novel I've always secretly wished McEwan would write.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:27 pm        Reply with quote

Vehicular Manslaughter wrote:
II've just been talking about it with dhex and he shared with me the information that in one of his wife's lit classes, there were female students who were sympathetic with Humbert. Not that they felt some sympathy for Humbert, that they identified and felt he was a sympathetic character. Which is pretty boggling/scary, although on one hand I understand it because Nabokov is such a good writer and Humbert is so sincere about his perceived right to his manipulations that it becomes hard to say "this man is sick". I'd compare it to In Cold Blood in terms of entering the mind of a sociopath and the power associated with such.


Oh yeah I mean Humbert Humbert is a charming hilarious guy: how could you not like him at least on a superficial level. It's not so much that it's hard to say he's sick: after all, he himself insists repeatedly that he's a monster that the reader/"jury" should be reviled by. His very pseudonym has been chosen by him because it sounds appropriate for some kind of hideous goblin. He defuses our anger in advance by admitting he deserves it (while simultaneously spinning his stories to make himself sound not so bad).
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:59 am        Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
chriservin22 wrote:
there is something inherently soulless in Nabokov's work, except for Lolita, and Speak, Memory.

I...

Jesus...

What the fuck?


I actually agree with the general thrust of this criticism. Along with his total lack of interest in pacing, it's basically the reason I've lost much of my enthusiasm for Nabokov over the years. Although soulless is not the right word: it's just a lack of warmth, without a thematic framework that gives meaning to coldness (as in, say, J.M. Coetzee or Kafka). Pale Fire and Pnin, among others, I think are somewhat dismal novels for this reason. Unattractive, neurotic men, presented with dispassionate humor. Without a poignant undercurrent, Nabokov's meticulous prose and intricate patterns are little more than a technical exercise.

Strangely, Lolita is one of his novels which suffers least from this problem, yes, despite having a certified sociopath for a narrator.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:51 pm        Reply with quote

chriservin22 wrote:
Broco wrote:
Dracko wrote:
chriservin22 wrote:
there is something inherently soulless in Nabokov's work, except for Lolita, and Speak, Memory.

I...

Jesus...

What the fuck?


I actually agree with the general thrust of this criticism. Along with his total lack of interest in pacing, it's basically the reason I've lost much of my enthusiasm for Nabokov over the years. Although soulless is not the right word: it's just a lack of warmth, without a thematic framework that gives meaning to coldness (as in, say, J.M. Coetzee or Kafka). Pale Fire and Pnin, among others, I think are somewhat dismal novels for this reason. Unattractive, neurotic men, presented with dispassionate humor. Without a poignant undercurrent, Nabokov's meticulous prose and intricate patterns are little more than a technical exercise.

Strangely, Lolita is one of his novels which suffers least from this problem, yes, despite having a certified sociopath for a narrator.


Yeah, soulless wasn't the right word to use. But... he's a genius at noticing things and describing them in that Nabokovian way, but there's noticing (cf Henry James) and then there's noticing as a visual fetishist.

This is from some half-remembered college lecture I got in 20th century lit, but I remember being told this telling story about Nabokov: While he was lecturing at Cornell on Russian literature, he spent an entire class period on Anna Karennena's final moments at that train platform. Where was everyone standing? What did the train look like? How fast was it moving? He drew a diagram on the chalkboard.

Nothing about what Anna was thinking about, in those final moments before suicide.

That's just the way he viewed art -- it doesn't make him a lesser artist at all, and I don't begrudge his choices at all. They aren't quite for me all the time, is all.


Yeah. Speaking of Nabokov and suicides, the suicide near the end of Ada falls completely flat, even though (if we believe Boyd anyway) it's supposed to be the centerpiece of the novel.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:28 am        Reply with quote

Felix wrote:
Broco wrote:
Yeah. Speaking of Nabokov and suicides, the suicide near the end of Ada falls completely flat, even though (if we believe Boyd anyway) it's supposed to be the centerpiece of the novel.


Good lord, I don't even remember it. Beyond the excellent first couple hundred of pages where Nabokov finally gave childhood love the due he always seemed to want to, Ada seemed to me like (another) homage to hope-he-knew-what. Granted that I enjoyed the vast majority of it.. if memory serves.


Yeah, I enjoy Ada as well, regardless of the largely correct consensus that it's a self-indulgent mess. That one scene with the honey and the wasp... perhaps Nabokov's most erotically charged.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:19 pm        Reply with quote

Elizabeth Costello is a very experimental work and an unconventional place to start with J.M. Coetzee (it happened to be where I started, and I liked it, but your mileage may vary). His most widely praised work is Disgrace.
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