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Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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 Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:39 pm |
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| SuperWes wrote: |
| This isn't a Neo-geo or the laserdisc. Backwards compatibility ensures that it won't be. Eventually people will be forced to upgrade even if they're really not interested. |
I hear that laserdisc players also played CDs. Those were totally backwards compatable.
Also, I don't think that you understand the laserdisc properly. Laserdisc was competing at one time with VHS tapes as the viable format. It wasn't an upgrade. Laserdisc was just as standalone and non-BC as either Bata-max or VHS. The laserdisc (higher digital quality that anyone could take advantage of but less than 1% of the population decided to) was in competition with the current formats of the time which were both of lower quality (DVD is lower than HD-ray much like VHS was to LD) and recordable (DVDs are a fairly saturated recordable market now). The comparisons between HD-ray and LD are much more apt than people are willing to give admit.
That said, referencing what Wes linked above (comparison shots between up scaled DVD and HDdvds) if anyone honestly believes that each movie is worth a $10+ entry fee and $400-$1000 worth of early adopter hardware let me know. As gamers we have the benefit of being able to cheaply test these formats, but if past generations of videogame hardware is any indication anyone who knows what the score is won’t use their console as a movie player.
Also, as eric-jon said before, a lot of this has to do with paused images. If this was all based on paused images I would be upgrading to HDdvd instantly. If this all was based on dvd players only having composite (red-white-yellow) output only, I would be upgrading instantly. If the audio was limited to mono or stereo only I would be upgrading. DVD players are capable of outputting in 5.1 digital surround with hdmi and other digital outputs. The image can be upscaled through technology to 1080p which will look exceptionally crisp and smooth in motion. After going to the theatre last Friday for the first time in a long time I realized that my good DVDs look better on my TV than the film did in the theatre. I’m also wondering how much more clear older films can get because the level of blemishes in those films can only go so low. So what this means is that out of a good 100 years of film, only about a third of it will be able to take any advantage of these items. If in five years all this stuff is the price of DVDs now and there’s no format war going on I may switch over to HD.
Having said this, I should mention that have a huge collection of DVDs. I would be someone who receives a lot of benefit from upgrading as I also have a 62” 1080p TV. You know what though? In motion out of a good upscaling DVD player, dvds are of comparable quality to HD-ray, and no where near worth dropping as a format yet.
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SuperWes
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:57 pm |
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| Shapermc wrote: |
| That said, referencing what Wes linked above (comparison shots between up scaled DVD and HDdvds) if anyone honestly believes that each movie is worth a $10+ entry fee and $400-$1000 worth of early adopter hardware let me know. |
I've already stated that it's not worth the cost to buy dedicated hardware right now. If you've already got a PS3 or Xbox 360 though I don't see why you wouldn't be at least curious. That extra $10 per movie might not be worth it either, but I'd be more likely to not buy a movie at all before I bought it in a non-HD format at this point. It just seems more prudent to rent stuff when owning something means a better version may be just around the corner.
| Shapermc wrote: |
| As gamers we have the benefit of being able to cheaply test these formats, but if past generations of videogame hardware is any indication anyone who knows what the score is won’t use their console as a movie player. |
I've heard the rumors about this, but I've also heard you can fix a broken Xbox 360 by wrapping a towel around it. This doesn't mean either one is true. But even if watching DVDs does wear out your drive, so does playing games, and if you're going to treat your system like anything you do with it might bring it closer to breaking you might as well not use it at all. Also, buying a second PS3s to replace a broken one would be cheaper than buying a dedicated player in the first place at this point.
| Shapermc wrote: |
| Also, as eric-jon said before, a lot of this has to do with paused images. |
Except for this is pretty much exactly on par with my experience. If you've actually spent time with more than just the store demo it's pretty clear that an HD image is significantly clearer and more detailed than any upscaled image you can get. But defending the upscaled image is sort of telling anyway, in that it shows that you very obviously care about your image quality. Putting the cost aside, why are you not interested in the best?
| Shapermc wrote: |
| If in five years all this stuff is the price of DVDs now and there’s no format war going on I may switch over to HD. |
You say this now, but I know that within two years you'll have a PS3. If at this point new Blu-Ray movies are closer in cost to DVDs I know you'll be buying those too.
To be clear I'm not saying that HD formats are going to catch on now. They're not and they have no reason to at their current price and movie selection. But to say that there will never be a significant number of people who are actually interested in watching their movies in HD when it's more in line with DVD's pricing is just silly given the growth in HD TV penetration.
-Wes
EDITED for clarity and to not sound like as big of a douche.
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Last edited by SuperWes on Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:33 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Moogs
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:21 pm |
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| SuperWes wrote: |
| Shapermc wrote: |
| As gamers we have the benefit of being able to cheaply test these formats, but if past generations of videogame hardware is any indication anyone who knows what the score is won’t use their console as a movie player. |
I've heard the rumors about this, but I've also heard you can fix a broken Xbox 360 by wrapping a towel around it. This doesn't mean either one is true. Regardless, I think electronics are meant to be used. Also, buying a second PS3s to replace a broken one would be cheaper than buying a dedicated player. |
A friend of mine used his 360 as a game console, DVD player, and music player. He used it for several hours everyday. It's currently with Microsoft waiting for his $140 so it can be repaired.
I've always been of the mindset that multi-purpose electronics have a greater chance of malfunctioning, and the above example kind of justified that thinking for me. |
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SuperWes
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:31 pm |
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| Moogs wrote: |
| A friend of mine used his 360 as a game console, DVD player, and music player. He used it for several hours everyday. It's currently with Microsoft waiting for his $140 so it can be repaired. |
Really? Mine broke after 14 months of just playing games on it. The replacement was free though.
-Wes
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Mr Mustache
Mean Mr. Mustache
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Bushwick
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:04 pm |
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What's Criterion's take on these formats?
Also, I am not poor, but no one I know owns an HDTV.
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Pijaibros
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Casino Night Zone
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:13 pm |
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| Mr Mustache wrote: |
| What's Criterion's take on these formats? |
People want poorly shot 16MM French Films in high-definition?
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Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:22 pm |
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Actually I was watching The Fifth Element in 1080p at an AV store the other day and it was so detailed that you could see all sorts of flaws and specks in the original film reel.
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Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:27 pm |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| Actually I was watching The Fifth Element in 1080p at an AV store the other day and it was so detailed that you could see all sorts of flaws and specks in the original film reel. |
Welcome to the future! The more detail you can see the more imperfections you can see.
That aside, I just emailed Criterion, so I'll let every one know what they say.
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Baines
banned
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:17 pm |
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| Eric-Jon Rössel Waugh wrote: |
| What you seem to be implying is that actual demand isn't a prerequisite for building a market. |
No. I'm saying that need isn't a prerequisite for demand.
Well, depending on what is meant by "need".
People certainly didn't "need" a Hummer as a personal vehicle. But the whole bigger is better status symbol mentality fueled some demand for Hummers.
Your posts have focused on why people don't really "need" HD/Blu-ray DVD. With that has been included the tone that people won't buy into such formats without some kind of additional incentive (like ceasing production of normal DVDs.)
But just because people don't need the improvements of HD/Blu-ray doesn't mean the formats are doomed. People will buy what they think they need, even if it doesn't really serve them an appreciable advantage.
Am I saying either HD or Blu-ray will dominate the DVD market without a forced phase-out of regular DVDs? No. But I'm also not saying that HD and Blu-ray are guaranteed to go the way of LaserDisc. |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:27 pm |
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| Baines wrote: |
| Eric-Jon Rössel Waugh wrote: |
| What you seem to be implying is that actual demand isn't a prerequisite for building a market. |
No. I'm saying that need isn't a prerequisite for demand.
Well, depending on what is meant by "need".
People certainly didn't "need" a Hummer as a personal vehicle. But the whole bigger is better status symbol mentality fueled some demand for Hummers.
Your posts have focused on why people don't really "need" HD/Blu-ray DVD. With that has been included the tone that people won't buy into such formats without some kind of additional incentive (like ceasing production of normal DVDs.)
But just because people don't need the improvements of HD/Blu-ray doesn't mean the formats are doomed. People will buy what they think they need, even if it doesn't really serve them an appreciable advantage.
Am I saying either HD or Blu-ray will dominate the DVD market without a forced phase-out of regular DVDs? No. But I'm also not saying that HD and Blu-ray are guaranteed to go the way of LaserDisc. |
This isn't a question of "need" at all, no matter how you define. Consumer electronics is increasingly becoming a leisure market. No one "needs" DVD's at all, or a television, even, for that matter, let alone the hi-def equivalents. It's a question of whether the desire for them is there. Is there even a compelling selling point? The difference between a hummer and a Ford F150 are pretty obvious even to someone who doesn't know how to drive -- but the difference between a DVD and an HD-DVD is nowhere near as clear, even to some movie buffs, and once it is explained, it's nowhere near as compelling.
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:31 am |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| Is there even a compelling selling point? |
"It's better!"
I mean, my parents bought an HDTV knowing next to nothing about HD. The cost came down enough though, and it was affordable so they were like "Yeah, we should get a better tv", whatever "better" means. I'm starting to think that maybe Kutaragi was right about that whole "people will buy anything because it's there to be bought" comment.
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| internisus wrote: |
| You are a pretty fucked up guy. |
True Doom Murder Junkies - Updated On Occasion |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:18 am |
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rich people will, yeah!
everyone else, maybe not so much.
it's too early to tell. it's entirely possibly for HD-Ray to catch on but there are so many mitigating factors it's just as feasible for it to never become mainstream.
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:42 am |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| it's too early to tell. it's entirely possibly for HD-Ray to catch on but there are so many mitigating factors it's just as feasible for it to never become mainstream. |
Perhaps. My folks are pretty far from rich but they have the tv. Then again, they aren't exactly voicing any major desires for a new HD player.
So, yeah. IAWTP
oh god
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| internisus wrote: |
| You are a pretty fucked up guy. |
True Doom Murder Junkies - Updated On Occasion |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:29 am |
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| Shapermc wrote: |
| I’m also wondering how much more clear older films can get because the level of blemishes in those films can only go so low. So what this means is that out of a good 100 years of film, only about a third of it will be able to take any advantage of these items. |
From what I've seen by hanging around on film restoration websites, it seems HD will be wasted on anything below 35mm; film can only hold so much detail. What that means historically, I don't know. I know an awful lot of indie stuff is on 16mm, though -- which has about the same physical resolution as SD. Tons and tons of television, as well.
Big studio stuff tends to be on 35mm, and has been since... 1892, apparently, so at least in theory the vast majority of mainstream film should be suitable. Of course there's a bunch of mitigating stuff to consider: damage, grain, how well the material was recorded to start with. As time goes on, the grain size goes down and down; recording techniques improve dramatically; and the likelihood of major damage decreases. |
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Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:59 pm |
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| Mr. Mechanical wrote: |
| Perhaps. My folks are pretty far from rich but they have the tv. Then again, they aren't exactly voicing any major desires for a new HD player. |
How long have they had that TV? You know that HDtv's have been around for like 7 years at least now right? It's not like they're jumping on the early bandwagon here.
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:24 pm |
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| Shapermc wrote: |
| Mr. Mechanical wrote: |
| Perhaps. My folks are pretty far from rich but they have the tv. Then again, they aren't exactly voicing any major desires for a new HD player. |
How long have they had that TV? You know that HDtv's have been around for like 7 years at least now right? It's not like they're jumping on the early bandwagon here. |
They've had it for a few months now, maybe as many as six, and I wasn't meaning to imply that they were early adopters. Simply that hey, regular folks are buying the fancy tvs now that the prices are coming down so maybe they'll be buying the new HD players a little later on as well.
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| internisus wrote: |
| You are a pretty fucked up guy. |
True Doom Murder Junkies - Updated On Occasion |
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