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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:51 pm |
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| Pijaibros wrote: |
| Guys, outside Club Dork nobody cares about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. |
This is the best summation I've seen. |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:25 am |
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I'm kind of pulling myself out of a several-month-long funk where it was hard to focus on anything. Maybe seasonal.
My most recent (paid) thing is over here. It's not really about Dragon Quest. There are a couple more to follow (one of which I'm writing right now). I'm guessing I'll be doing some more GamaSutra stuff for GDC. That should be a decent change. Get me out of the house, anyway!
Biggest problem is just getting my act together. It's frustrating; were I to take up everything requested of me, I could be pretty set. I guess I've got my pace, though -- and that pace is lethargic. |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:59 pm |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| sup aderack, get a therapist |
What use is a therapist when I have you in my life, James?
Anyway. I wrote this somewhere else recently, for events such as this. Mr. Wrong, Pijai, and Toups have basically covered it; still, here's another summation:
Both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are going to bomb, people. Not as badly as UMD, though that should give you an idea what we're dealing with. One or both will hobble on for a while as a high-end videophile format; there's a hole to fill, now that laserdisc's gone away. As a mass format, though, DVD's not budging. Not so long as most people don't even know if they're watching a TV show in the right aspect ratio, and not so long as there's nothing wrong with DVD.
People change their ways when they've damn good reason to, and not a moment before. Plain old DVD is going to stick around until it's too unwieldy to maintain any longer -- if for no other reason than that there's too much personal and architectural investment in the format to arbitrarily pick up and switch to something that's exactly the same except that guy you know who will scream at you for not hooking up your stereo correctly insists it's somehow better.
For there to be a successor to a format as established and perfect, for its part, as DVD that new format will have to offer something so significantly different and so obviously better in every aspect of convenience, simplicity, and quality, that there is no comparison between the two. You create something that's meant to be compared, and you've lost before you've begun -- however nice your product in its own right. Nobody cares! At least, nobody outside the geek ghetto -- and that's the whole issue, in a nutshell.
Last edited by aderack on Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:07 pm |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| toupe |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:33 pm |
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| Better: animate 'em. |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:45 am |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| You might even learn to write articulately! |
| Quote: |
| People who view luxury markets as having to somehow necessary don't get it :( |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:16 pm |
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| And Iron Brew. Of course. |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:52 am |
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Was anyone else at the final E3? Did you notice the way every single game was hooked up to a HDTV, and every single game was upscaled and horizontally stretched? And nobody fixed any of them for the entire show?
I mean. I don't know what the hell that says. I'm sure I spot irony, however! |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:34 am |
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| Joe wrote: |
| It's Bru, Aderack. |
Only for the last sixty years. I did miss the hyphen, though. Hm.
I think people might also need a widespread public "education" campaign for how to connect and set up their HDTVs. See how well that goes over.
Though, hey. It's been a while since I've heard anyone bitch about letterboxing. So I guess these things do work, sometimes.
EDIT: Hey, it's not 1996 anymore!
Last edited by aderack on Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:21 pm |
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| Maztorre wrote: |
| That's kind of a misnomer. |
That's kind of a misnomer. |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:54 pm |
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The same discussion happens everywhere on the Internet at once. The following (up until the break) is from another forum, from a few weeks back. I pasted it here because some of the above points reminded me of it.
| Quote: |
| I've seen HD compared with SD and I have to say that the difference is as big as that between VHS & DVD. |
Not really. The only real difference is of quality, which is pretty subjective -- and which, again, most people frankly don't give much of a damn about. Rightly so, really; the point of TV and film is motion. As long as the picture is clear and unblemished, it doesn't matter how crisp it is. That's not to say that a higher resolution isn't nice; just that it isn't very important. See how often people watch TV in the right aspect ratio, or bother to find the right cables. All that matters is that they can see what they're watching, and that there's nothing clearly wrong with it.
As far as formats go, the difference between VHS and DVD is enormous. DVD allows random access; you don't have to rewind; it doesn't decay with use; it's more compact; its capacity and random access functions allow for all manner of special features. VHS is... tape. It's linear, it's bulky, it falls apart, it gets jammed in the tape heads.
Those are the reasons DVD has taken off; it's the first real "hard copy" consumer format for film and television. It's convenient, powerful, and semi-permanent. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray don't have much to offer that DVD doesn't already have. It's pretty much just more of the same, except more "elite" -- and elite in a direction that, for reasons partially outlined above, won't make much of a difference to anyone who isn't an A/V or tech fetishist.
Hell, I've got a HDTV and I hook up everything through composite. Why? It's easier and cheaper, and I'm sitting across the room anyway. I do change the aspect ratio to fit, as otherwise the geometry is all weird; my doing so usually causes my partner to roll her eyes, as if I'm really being that anal. Her father, who is a tech geek, and always needs the newest, most expensive hardware, never does change the ratio. And, well, whatever.
So. Yeah. The same people who used to buy laserdiscs and who listen to music DVDs will be thrilled. The people who absolutely cannot live without the most recent graphics cards in their computers will love it. For everyone else, good enough is good enough. As long as there's nothing obviously wrong with DVD, there's no reason to bother with anything else.
==
Again, that's assuming the industry doesn't just up and stop manufacturing DVDs -- which ain't gonna happen until there's a certain critical mass, which is going to be difficult to attain if there's no clear incentive for people to get rid of what they already own for something that's basically the exact same thing, only slightly better in one respect.
I believe this is what Toups was saying, as far as "quality" is concerned: the picture to your average DVD is perfectly fine: clear, stable, unblemished. That's part of why it took off to start with. The only advantage that HD-DVD or Blu-Ray has over this standard is an increased resolution -- which, although nice, is one of the last concerns even in the business of professional picture restoration.
Resolution has very little to do with the efficacity of the medium, as the object of film and television is motion. In still photography, resolution is of a higher concern, as it is the individual frame that requests scrutiny; in film, framing, tracking, clarity, and contrast come first. Again, so long as there's nothing obviously wrong with the picture -- nothing that interferes with or distracts from the transmission of its narrative information -- it's a hard argument that anything additional is going to do much to aid with the primary intent of the medium. Then when you consider that that most people are going to be sitting across the room anyway, that effectively eliminates much of the hypothetical gain.
At least at the moment, the added information is both nice and irrelevant. I don't see any way to argue that it's not nice to have, yet neither do I see much argument that it's important. Until it somehow does become important (which would require a change in the medium itself), or is broadly enough perceived as such (and, you know, fads happen), I don't see a lot of momentum. Any successor is going to have to offer more, of a more practical effect to the enjoyment of the medium within the context of the average person's life.
It's that context element that made DVD such a leap from VHS -- it's so much more practical a format. That it also offers a significant improvement in all areas of information transmission clinches the deal. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray offer few to no new practical advantages, and only one minor aesthetic adventage. So. Yeah. Factor in inertia, and the odds don't look that thrilling.
I guess that's the extent of my observation in the matter. Got nothin' else to say! |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:16 am |
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| SuperWes wrote: |
| Yeah, that whole color TV thing? It'll never take off! |
That's kind of a different issue. You know that, though.
From what I can see the deciding factor -- which I allude to above ("which would require a change in the medium itself") and you mention somewhat -- is the changeover of the universal broadcast standard. Once essentially all new television is innately HD, both in production and delivery, an HD storage medium will be a lot more relevant.
Even then, unless everyone with an older TV is going to be required to buy a downsampler of some sort, I think the changeover will be pretty gradual. Again, inertia. Still, it's hard to argue against a TV box set (say) being of at least the same quality you'd see on transmission. Once you start losing medium-specific information that was present and ostensibly visible to start with, the argument becomes far more persuasive. Given the way TV is transforming into a sort of a "try before you buy" format, it would be kind of chintzy for the actual product to be of inferior quality to the free demo.
Honestly it still isn't a very important difference -- especially not in real practice. Whatever, though; at least under those circumstances the expectation is reasonable. Anything with a less concrete justification strikes me as pretty arbitrary. |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:41 am |
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I think the problem in this discussion is that Wes and others are saying these formats are great in that they let people take advantage of their existing HDTVs, whereas I and (I think) Toups and some others are arguing more about the content itself, and whether it warrants any of this new equipment. We're starting in different places, with different intents.
There's no argument that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray do a good job at complimenting other high technology. I don't really see where that need enter the discussion. The real question is to what extent this technology collectively benefits the medium. Surely there are decent arguments to be made on both sides of that question, and all the gray areas in between.
For what it's worth, Kojima doesn't give a shit about any of it. We've got the porn discussion, which actually has implications outside of that realm. I know that a lot of shows (yes; Doctor Who, for one) are avoiding moving to HD because of the increased budget and preparation time it would necessitate for the extra detail that would be required in sets, makeup, and costuming. And again, there's the issue that the increased detail really doesn't add much of substance to the discussion.
I'm interested to see what the aesthetic or practical arguments are for the upgrade, apart from "it looks cool/better". I'm sure there's something reasonable out there! When is "good enough" not good enough? And why? |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:13 am |
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What you seem to be implying is that actual demand isn't a prerequisite for building a market.
Am I getting this, so far? Because, well. That's kind of silly, if so.
What I'm saying is that there are two ways of looking at this: from the perspective of technology for its own sake; and from the perspective of the medium.
For people who care primarily about the former, demand takes the form of the newest, hypothetically best equipment they can afford. Part of my argument is that this is in essence a niche market: for most people, hardware is simply a tool; they'll take whatever gets the job done. Some people have argued that once the high tech hardware comes down to a price where anyone can buy it, the average person will say "to hell with it" and go with the ostensibly better technology. This is, overall, a reasonable assumption. It's based on a few uncertain factors, though:
1: will the hardware indeed come down to a reasonable level?
2: will there be enough media to warrant the upgrade?
3: will the average person understand the difference? The purported benefit?
4: will DVD still be a thriving format in its own right?
5: will standalone DVD players (without HD-DVD or Blu-Ray capacity) still exist?
All of these depend on the HD formats doing well enough in the short term to enjoy some crossover appeal outside the "geek squad". Which brings us to my argument, based on demand factor #2: the medium. Do the new formats offer enough of a difference for the average person, who just wants to watch a movie or a TV show and otherwise not to be bothered, to give a damn? And in large enough numbers that the market will reach critical mass, crowding out DVD?
And, well. Without going in depth on the wiles of consumer psychology, I think I've made my case about as well as I'm going to on that issue. That strikes me as the central question, though.
Something else I'm not sure if you're picking up is that I'm not saying there will be no market at all for these formats; rather, that the market is going to be more like Laserdisc or DVD audio than DVD video. These are all formats developed specifically for the purist. They're like the Neo-Geo of A/V; they're not populist, inasmuch as there already is a populist format that does its job perfectly well, and in that what they have to offer has little to do with real contemporary concerns. These are simply positioned as high-class alternatives; not as a completely new concept -- which makes their appeal nebulous and qualified, rather than absolute.
So they'll be there, on the periphery, as an alternative. It's just, they're innately that: an alternative.
There will, of course, eventually be a populist successor to DVD. When it does come, it will take a new form that can't even be compared to the three formats we're discussing; it'll be too different, and account for real, organic concerns that aren't even on our radar right now. |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:29 am |
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| Shapermc wrote: |
| I’m also wondering how much more clear older films can get because the level of blemishes in those films can only go so low. So what this means is that out of a good 100 years of film, only about a third of it will be able to take any advantage of these items. |
From what I've seen by hanging around on film restoration websites, it seems HD will be wasted on anything below 35mm; film can only hold so much detail. What that means historically, I don't know. I know an awful lot of indie stuff is on 16mm, though -- which has about the same physical resolution as SD. Tons and tons of television, as well.
Big studio stuff tends to be on 35mm, and has been since... 1892, apparently, so at least in theory the vast majority of mainstream film should be suitable. Of course there's a bunch of mitigating stuff to consider: damage, grain, how well the material was recorded to start with. As time goes on, the grain size goes down and down; recording techniques improve dramatically; and the likelihood of major damage decreases. |
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