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Oh dear, Resident Evil 5
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bloody heartland



Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Location: MECHANICAL MAN HEARS AND SPEAKS

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:04 pm    Post subject: Oh dear, Resident Evil 5    Reply with quote

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1116

"We're creating a game about light and darkness".

In-game footage bringsinto focus how menacing, poor, beat up and shitty all the black people in-game look before they're turned into zombies!
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shrugtheironteacup
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Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:05 pm        Reply with quote

Video does not confirm zombie child soldiers.
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Daphaknee
a whole shitload of class


Joined: 31 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:34 pm        Reply with quote

im sure its better than resident evil: apocalypse

also have you guys seen pep bonet's photography? a lot of sierra lieone's civil war survivors remind me of what resident evil 5 might be based on.

its scary stuff, and sad

its estimated that the war left 50,000 psychotic and 300,000 in need of treatment

CRAZY ZOMBIES rarrrr hmmm

actually no, i just WISH resident evil five was based on this stuff, because this is way scarier than resident evil
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!=



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:41 pm        Reply with quote

The behaviour, the way this man talked really put me off; I don't want to have anything to do with a game whose creator is at the same time thriving for some sort of realism (as he claims to) while at the same time reserving his own interpretations and comments to the level of subatomic particles.

He exhibit here a combination of myopea to the world surrounding him and hypersensitivity to the message that comes from that deincarnated crowd they call "fans."

Part of me hope it is only for promotion purposes, because he is expected to talk like that. The same part of me calls him a corporate serf/whore.


Last edited by != on Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brooks



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:02 pm        Reply with quote

Honestly, my interest in this one's gone up a wee bit, if only to see how they, uh, pull the whole thing off. Could be gleefully car-crash.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer


Joined: 02 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:46 pm        Reply with quote

I dunno guys, aside from the rampant racial ignorance I think it looks pretty awesome.
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Brooks



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:08 pm        Reply with quote

The animations certainly seem pretty slick, and the art direction's got some texture to it - something a notch or two up on normal-mapped dismalism. The adjustment-to-light thingy could generate some crafty setpieces too.

My hope's that they don't ram it with cutscenery. A fool's hope.
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Vikram Ray



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:40 pm        Reply with quote

i'm really still waiting to see all this racial ignorance everyone's talking about.
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Chuplayer
agalmatophile


Joined: 23 Nov 2007

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:56 pm        Reply with quote

Vikram Ray wrote:
i'm really still waiting to see all this racial ignorance everyone's talking about.


Me, too. See the first Zero Punctuation Review for more explanation.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation.3 (scroll all the way down)

I think I'm gonna watch it right now.
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table_and_chair



Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Location: beverly, ma

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:17 pm        Reply with quote

the producer (or whomever) interviewed genuinely reminds me of a cracked sideshow barker or someone like sam raimi with regard to Evil Dead and I was a little bit surprised I was interested at all. Still just walking around shooting people though.
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Daphaknee
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:01 am        Reply with quote

resident evil 5 is as racist as resident evil 4, it just seems like you guys actually hate spaniards and feel guilty about black people or something

like what the hell
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bloody heartland



Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:15 am        Reply with quote

The spanish aren't usually portrayed as marauding psychopaths - maybe you could work a mexican immigrant angle in there, but it'd be pushing it. Much of that stereotype (aside from the language) could be extended to rural france, rural england, rural germany, modern wales...

Black people, and Africans, are often protrayed as angry mobs. Much of the RE5 asthetic is grounded in Black Hawk Down, which is.... problematic.

RE4 was not mired in stereotype to the degree RE5 is.

It was cute when Yahzee said it too, but he wasn't any less off the money.
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thatbox



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:26 am        Reply with quote

Mr. Brooks wrote:
My hope's that they don't ram it with cutscenery. A fool's hope.

PRESS A MOTHERFUCKER! PRESS A NOW!
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DonMarco
graphics fucker


Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:42 am        Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
I dunno guys, aside from the rampant racial ignorance I think it looks pretty awesome.

You aren't seriously noticing this now, are you? And why is it okay to have an all-white zombie crowd, all-"Europe" zombie crowd, and not a all-black crowd? Are you saying that black people are more resilient to the T-virus? Because that sound pretty fucking biggoted to me.

And while we're on the subject of Africa, what was the last Hollywood movie to portray it in a good light? The Constant Gardner, Hotel Rwanda, Last King of Scotland? Hell, most people would say Coming To America (1988) or maybe Tyler Perry's Going Home (2004).

I'd enjoy watching Cubalibre walking around average african settlement. Walking around complaining about the poverty and disease and human rights violations. Shouting at the crowd over the lack of white people. I'm sure he'd eventually find himself to a western-style town, especially on the coast.
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Cycle
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:43 am        Reply with quote

guys i hate black people so im really looking forward to this game
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sam



Joined: 28 May 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:59 am        Reply with quote

i'm sure the game will be awesome and there's almost certainly no dubious intention behind it but i think it's pretty clear why people might get up in arms over imagery like that. the spanish thing was different, there's no history there - no-one would mistake the imagery in resi 4 for racist propaganda as it's not predicated on racial stereotypes.

i doubt anyone would in resi 5, either, but it's at least conceivable. i mean, look at it, if you knew nothing about the resident evil series or even videogames i can totally see how you might assume the worst. it's pretty heavy-handed.

i'm looking forward to the game for sure, but i'm a bit surprised no-one at capcom USA could've predicted how all of this might go down at least.
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DonMarco
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:59 am        Reply with quote

And one more fucking thing. I want to be absolutely clear that not all third-world countries are dominatly one race. Japan is a first-world nation and is 99% Japanese. 1% Chinese/Vietnamese/Korean/European/Russian/American and so on.

It's really great America is the melting pot. It'll be even more so with the Hispanic/Mexican/non-white caucasians gaining.

I blame this on the dominance of American technology. AC electricity, Cars, interweb tubes (you- and sex-related), animation, cellular phones and Girls Gone Wild. Sure, the US may not have the largest population, the largest military force, or the wealthiest quality of life... But it's my country, dammit.

Fuck you Cubalibre.
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Chuplayer
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:07 am        Reply with quote

bloody heartland wrote:
The spanish aren't usually portrayed as marauding psychopaths - maybe you could work a mexican immigrant angle in there, but it'd be pushing it. Much of that stereotype (aside from the language) could be extended to rural france, rural england, rural germany, modern wales...

Black people, and Africans, are often protrayed as angry mobs. Much of the RE5 asthetic is grounded in Black Hawk Down, which is.... problematic.

RE4 was not mired in stereotype to the degree RE5 is.

It was cute when Yahzee said it too, but he wasn't any less off the money.


So now we need affirmative action in video games?
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winkerwatson
badmin


Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:19 am        Reply with quote

Spain more like somewhere in europe
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Toptube
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Joined: 23 Apr 2007

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:44 am        Reply with quote

Without purposefully being a shithead, isn't this sort of exactly what it might look like if a zombie virus broke out in rural Africa?

Or am I just an ignorant motherfucker?




---------

RE4's general residents were poor as shit too and lived in ratty houses and shantys.

The Cult were the ones with the nice places/castles. Which is usually the case with a dominant dictator/communist type power.

-----------

I think RE5 is looking great. Except Chris is a bit too buff.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer


Joined: 02 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:18 am        Reply with quote

It's a game about the light versus the dark, you see
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Mr Mustache
Mean Mr. Mustache


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:28 am        Reply with quote

I won't buy this game.
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bruin



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:30 am        Reply with quote

I will!



I mean fuck guys come on
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Mr Mustache
Mean Mr. Mustache


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:42 am        Reply with quote

No.
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Eudaimon



Joined: 08 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:50 am        Reply with quote

I was wondering when this was going to come back.

If you haven't heard yet, N'Gai Croal went on a kind of rant about this. I think he says some interesting things there.

Whether or not the people at Capcom are aware of it, this game is going to make for some interesting times.
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Predator Goose



Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:55 am        Reply with quote

bloody heartland wrote:
RE4 was not mired in stereotype to the degree RE5 is.

This is a damn silly statement to make at this stage of the game.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:01 am        Reply with quote

Predator Goose wrote:
bloody heartland wrote:
RE4 was not mired in stereotype to the degree RE5 is.

This is a damn silly statement to make at this stage of the game.

Why? I mean, it is mired in stereotype, but not in as much. It's just the "rich American versus impoverished villagers" thing, but in 5 it's the same with "black versus white" added on top.

What I don't see is people calling RE4 "just as racist"... that's pretty nonsensical. Spaniards aren't a race, by which I mean they aren't a phenotype. They're white for god's sake. I mean there were some swarthy dudes in RE4 but there were some perfectly white dudes too. Spaniards do not in any way equal Hispanics... what's ignorant is asserting that they're the same thign.
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Predator Goose



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:14 am        Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
Predator Goose wrote:
bloody heartland wrote:
RE4 was not mired in stereotype to the degree RE5 is.

This is a damn silly statement to make at this stage of the game.

Why?

Because we've seen an incredibly small part of the game and are extrapolating from that and developer comments. Laughably bad developer comments.

I could quote you parts of Native Son taken out of context that would make it seem like the book is a horrible case of stereotyping and an indictment of an entire race, and should be read by no one and kept away from our children.
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CubaLibre
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:18 am        Reply with quote

Well I mean sure, valid enough point.

It doesn't bode well though. It also reveals an almost epic boneheadedness in Capcom's marketing department.
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bloody heartland



Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:25 am        Reply with quote

Predator Goose wrote:
bloody heartland wrote:
RE4 was not mired in stereotype to the degree RE5 is.

This is a damn silly statement to make at this stage of the game.


Let's usefully assume we live in a world of useful assumptions, eh?
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Predator Goose



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:32 am        Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
It doesn't bode well though. It also reveals an almost epic boneheadedness in Capcom's marketing department.

That certainly isn't something I'd argue against. Were I more of an optimist I might say that they could be confident that RE5 will have a competent and thought provoking look at racism, and that these initial reactions will sheepishly go away in light of the actual game content. But we're talking about Resident fucking Evil.

I'd have to be an optimist high on cocaine.
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Toto



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:35 am        Reply with quote

What Isfet said about this game is still true :(
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dark steve
secretary of good times


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:38 am        Reply with quote

It's really hard to shake the feeling that people are defending this game out of the fear that it will get cancelled, censored, or they'll just end up feeling too uneasy to enjoy it. This isn't about race politics in North American, either (though there's certainly enough here to make a person squeamish about that).

What are the differences between sub-saharan Africa and rural Spain? Colonialism and AIDS. How do these not raise flags for people?
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!=



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: the planet of leather moomins

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:48 am        Reply with quote

I would contend that any zombie game is inherently racist, and this does not depend in any way of the color or origin of the zombies themselves.

Detailing their mechanics and what it is based on:

- the fear of being corrupted by what is seen as a subhuman (but still human in form)
- associating negative appearance to enemies with negative behaviour, in a deterministic way (which for me, is precisely the definition of racism, that of linking the phenotype to the worth and behaviours of people. Only racists know as a fixed fact what a race is)
- the fear of an hidden menace well inside the midst of the population. This person here might have the forbidden blood. This is further made worse if in the context of a game, the NPC are assigned a "will become a zombie / will not" fixed status, which makes becoming a zombie not much a matter of misfortune, and more an actual property of the character.

It also plays with the idea of objectifying your enemies in order to let you feel no remorse while killing them. That is not racist and is commonly found in all war-like games, though racism helps to reach this level of psychopathy. (As an aside this might actually explain why the racist feeling exist.. As an enabler for resolving conflicts violently)

What tops it in RE5 is the retardness of the marketers. If I was to trust the japanese designers to build a complex, subtle system, then the execution as it is now shown would not be problematic, however their reliance on linearity and fixed set pieces does not make me optimistic. The way the game designer talks is still stuck in the 16bit gaming mentality.. with its naÔve portayals of reality.

In any case, even if they were to make it a subtle, non controversial execution of this game, they still are going to get grilled by the media in the west.

As a clarification.. even if I believe what I said above about the racist feeling being part of all zombie-type games, what will undo this particular game is the setting and the precise history surrounding it. Because no journalist would pick up the former, while the latter is going to be understood by just about anybody, especially those who've never played such games.

The game designers need to earn a certain level of credibility and maturity before being able to pull this off. I fear the graphics rendering technology has matured far faster than the participants in the game industry.
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spinach
hardline radical martian


Joined: 04 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:56 am        Reply with quote

This could easily go either way. There's an obvious racial overtone here, there's no sense denying it, but the execution itself is what matters. That said, I honestly don't know what to expect from Capcom, ever.
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spinach
hardline radical martian


Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:00 am        Reply with quote

!= wrote:
I would contend that any zombie game is inherently racist, and this does not depend in any way of the color or origin of the zombies themselves.

Detailing their mechanics and what it is based on:

- the fear of being corrupted by what is seen as a subhuman (but still human in form)
- associating negative appearance to enemies with negative behaviour, in a deterministic way (which for me, is precisely the definition of racism, that of linking the phenotype to the worth and behaviours of people. Only racists know as a fixed fact what a race is)
- the fear of an hidden menace well inside the midst of the population. This person here might have the forbidden blood. This is further made worse if in the context of a game, the NPC are assigned a "will become a zombie / will not" fixed status, which makes becoming a zombie not much a matter of misfortune, and more an actual property of the character.

It also plays with the idea of objectifying your enemies in order to let you feel no remorse while killing them. That is not racist and is commonly found in all war-like games, though racism helps to reach this level of psychopathy. (As an aside this might actually explain why the racist feeling exist.. As an enabler for resolving conflicts violently)

What tops it in RE5 is the retardness of the marketers. If I was to trust the japanese designers to build a complex, subtle system, then the execution as it is now shown would not be problematic, however their reliance on linearity and fixed set pieces does not make me optimistic. The way the game designer talks is still stuck in the 16bit gaming mentality.. with its naÔve portayals of reality.

In any case, even if they were to make it a subtle, non controversial execution of this game, they still are going to get grilled by the media in the west.

As a clarification.. even if I believe what I said above about the racist feeling being part of all zombie-type games, what will undo this particular game is the setting and the precise history surrounding it. Because no journalist would pick up the former, while the latter is going to be understood by just about anybody, especially those who've never played such games.

The game designers need to earn a certain level of credibility and maturity before being able to pull this off. I fear the graphics rendering technology has matured far faster than the participants in the game industry.

Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Psycho Ant



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:11 am        Reply with quote

No mention of toups and pizza and black people yet ITT.
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Pat the Great



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:51 am        Reply with quote

this is quite possibly the only reasonably intelligent discussion i've seen on the topic to date. christ, the comments pages on any given blog post about this are nightmarish. more nightmarish than USUAL.

even donmarco.


Quote:
You aren't seriously noticing this now, are you? And why is it okay to have an all-white zombie crowd, all-"Europe" zombie crowd, and not a all-black crowd? Are you saying that black people are more resilient to the T-virus? Because that sound pretty fucking biggoted to me.


a law-and-order white boy shooting hordes of crazed black bodies is the kind of image that has a certain historical background attached to it, both within the US (see: american legacy of slavery and racism towards black people) and outside (see: white people colonizing africa).

the first few REs didn't evoke this kind of image. they weren't really identified beyond americans shooting americans in america. if it were law-and-order straight white male vs. a horde of gay zombies, or rich law-and-order white male vs. a horde of poor zombies, or rich law-and-order white male vs. a horde of women zombies, don't you think this kind of reaction would be justified?

Quote:
while we're on the subject of Africa, what was the last Hollywood movie to portray it in a good light? The Constant Gardner, Hotel Rwanda, Last King of Scotland? Hell, most people would say Coming To America (1988) or maybe Tyler Perry's Going Home (2004).


For the record, Hollywood treats people of color pretty horribly, and Africa particularly so. And people get angry about this all the time.
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Psycho Ant



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:56 am        Reply with quote

People overlooking the fact that this game comes from a country where racism is still seen to be legitimate in a lot of aspects ITT.
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WarpZone



Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:04 am        Reply with quote

dark steve wrote:
What are the differences between sub-saharan Africa and rural Spain? Colonialism and AIDS. How do these not raise flags for people?

This.

spinach wrote:
There's an obvious racial overtone here, there's no sense denying it, but the execution itself is what matters. That said, I honestly don't know what to expect from Capcom, ever.

After four hours of shooting Africans, the game will move to an ocean liner, undersea base, and possibly space station.
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Psycho Ant



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:42 am        Reply with quote

vision wrote:
Psycho Ant wrote:
People overlooking the fact that this game comes from a country where racism is still seen to be legitimate in a lot of aspects ITT.


So it should get a free pass?


No but we're not going to change Japan by jumping up and down about the latest Biohazard game. This debate is about as sophisticated the 'lol pedo' debate around Doki Doki Panic.
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