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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:30 pm |
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That's still entirely useless.
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secret character
Joined: 12 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:36 pm |
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| Perhaps the same can be said of all genrefication? |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:59 pm |
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I really disagree about HL2, but oh well everyone knows that.
I still am thinking of selling of some games at some point soon to pick up ME. I should be buying L4D this week as well.
GODDAMMIT. |
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Rya.Reisender
banned
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:46 pm |
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| Are there no battles in Portal / Mirror's Edge at all? Or just... less? |
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SuperWes
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:13 pm |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: |
| Are there no battles in Portal / Mirror's Edge at all? Or just... less? |
There are no real battles in Portal. There are tripod turrets that can't move and you don't shoot them directly. There are fewer than usual in Mirror's Edge, but the ones they have are horrific.
-Wes
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manmachine plays jazz
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:19 pm |
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| can we just call portal and mirror's edge "first person platformers" and be done with it?? |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:28 pm |
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| yup |
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another god
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:37 pm |
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| SuperWes wrote: |
| Rya.Reisender wrote: |
| Are there no battles in Portal / Mirror's Edge at all? Or just... less? |
There are no real battles in Portal. There are tripod turrets that can't move and you don't shoot them directly. There are fewer than usual in Mirror's Edge, but the ones they have are horrific.
-Wes |
Horrific? Really?
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jack klugman
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:00 pm |
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man, playing this game is depressing unless it is the time trials
this game is so unsure of itself, throwing chase scenes and angry mobs of cops and snipers and miserable story stuff
i feel like if this game were a person, I would have to sit it down and explain to it that sometimes running and jumping in a world full of colors is its own reward
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another god
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:32 pm |
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| Games are games, true enough. They're not artistic statements in the same way as movies are, but they are creative works and creativity needs to be nurtured. Judging this medium on set criteria like graphics, sound, gameplay, lasta-fecking-bility – oh God, sometimes all that crap needs to be torn up |
Keith Stuart at the Guardian makes the argument that ME should be rewarded for its innovation.
He doesn't say much else about ME. He just assumes everyone else is on the level that he is - the game is awesome to play if you let it. Then he bitches about the people that don't, and what they do, and how they're ruining the industry. I liked the article a lot.
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SuperWes
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:21 pm |
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| another god wrote: |
Keith Stuart at the Guardian makes the argument that ME should be rewarded for its innovation.
He doesn't say much else about ME. He just assumes everyone else is on the level that he is - the game is awesome to play if you let it. Then he bitches about the people that don't, and what they do, and how they're ruining the industry. I liked the article a lot. |
The problem with this assertion is that he assumes that other reviewers are unable to see the innovation past the game's flaws when in reality he's the one who's unable to see the game's flaws through the innovation. Pan's Labyrinth, Eraser Head, Apocalypse Now, The Magnificent Ambersons, and Bladerunner are more than just visually visionary. They all have directors and editors that considered the movies with an eye on pacing and the viewer's experience. These films are classic not solely because they were innovative, but because they were innovative AND excellent. Mirror's Edge shouldn't get a free pass because it's innovative if it doesn't fulfill the excellent quotient.
I do think that Mirror's Edge has an amazing art direction and when things work it's extremely exhilarating, the problem is that when you're playing it the experience often boils down to little but trial and error. If I don't make a jump I don't usually feel like it was my problem. I feel like I'm probably going the wrong way. When I look around and don't see any other possible ways, try again five or six times and finally nail it on the seventh it's incredibly frustrating.
As I was playing, I mentioned to my wife, "can you imagine what this game would be like if they gave you a limited number of lives?"
"Yeah, you would have given up a long time ago," was her response, and I think that's an indicator that there's something keeping the game from being all it could be.
| Quote: |
| Judging this medium on set criteria like graphics, sound, gameplay, lasta-fecking-bility – oh God, sometimes all that crap needs to be torn up |
And then there's this. I agree with him on this general point, but I think if you read most of the ME reviews, the issue that people have with the game isn't summed by by the bulleted list of negatives. It's true that many of them have trouble articulating exactly what the problem is (it's kind of asinine that IGN attributes it to the lack of a fourth button), but it's telling that many of them came to the same general conclusion: That the experience of playing the game is far from what it could be.
Don't get me wrong, I liked the game. I liked it a lot. I liked it enough to beat it in less than a week, so it just have been doing something right. But all of its flaws and frustration can't be ignored simply because it looks pretty, has neat controls and flies the banner of innovation. Innovation and quality are not mutually exclusive.
-Wes
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:25 pm |
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the guardian :(
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Tokyo Rude
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: I'm on the phone Derrick!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:27 pm |
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| SuperWes wrote: |
I do think that Mirror's Edge has an amazing art direction and when things work it's extremely exhilarating, the problem is that when you're playing it the experience often boils down to little but trial and error. If I don't make a jump I don't usually feel like it was my problem. I feel like I'm probably going the wrong way. When I look around and don't see any other possible ways, try again five or six times and finally nail it on the seventh it's incredibly frustrating.
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Yeah noticed when I played the demo that they had fixed that jump from TGS that I complained about. Then I played it again last night and died on that spot about 8 times and turned it off.
I'm not sure what to think here. The demo doesn't give you a lot of room to fuck around. Probably will file it under Assassin's Creed (get around to it some day when it's cheap enough.) |
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another god
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:37 pm |
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| SuperWes wrote: |
| it's telling that many of them came to the same general conclusion: That the experience of playing the game is far from what it could be. |
Read the article. It's really hard to be innovative and fulfill potential. In fact, it's almost mutually exclusive. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying compared to all of the me-too games that came out this fall its innovation is at least interesting compared to the tried and true bigger badder sequels.
At least an entire page of this thread was devoted to how different ME is from Portal, another game that's entirely out of the ballpark as far as FP games go. Do you go for the blonde bombshell everytime, or do you go for the interesting girl in the corner?
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SuperWes
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:05 pm |
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| another god wrote: |
| Read the article. It's really hard to be innovative and fulfill potential. In fact, it's almost mutually exclusive. |
I strongly disagree! Portal did it. Warioware did it. Mario 64 did it. World of Goo did it a few months ago. Gears did it a few years ago. Metal Gear Solid did the fuck out of it. Jet Grind Radio came a lot closer than Mirror's Edge does. Basically, I do agree that it's difficult to be innovative and fulfill potential, but I think fulfilling potential is a lot more difficult and important than being innovative is. Being innovative is relatively easy. Making something truly compelling isn't.
-Wes
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:09 pm |
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Why are you people listening to The Guardian?
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astralpancakes
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:15 pm |
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| SuperWes wrote: |
Pan's Labyrinth, Eraser Head, Apocalypse Now, The Magnificent Ambersons, and Bladerunner are more than just visually visionary. They all have directors and editors that considered the movies with an eye on pacing and the viewer's experience. These films are classic not solely because they were innovative, but because they were innovative AND excellent. Mirror's Edge shouldn't get a free pass because it's innovative if it doesn't fulfill the excellent quotient.
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Out of interest, how common do you reckon games that do live up to this are? Portal and the first Katamari Damacy are the only games made in recent years that I can think of that manage to be both "visionary", whatever that means, and not have some obvious flaws to point to.
edit: okay, so you answered my question while I was typing.. |
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:27 pm |
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| I don't know what you're talking about wesley this game feels pretty great! I hope the PC version has a level editor -- can anyone confirm/deny this yet? |
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sam
Joined: 28 May 2007
Location: osaka
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:47 pm |
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| Dracko wrote: |
| Why are you people listening to The Guardian? |
why do you feel compelled to make it REALLY CLEAR you don't like the guardian whenever it's linked or mentioned instead of just reading the damn article? we get it, okay, and i don't think their politics reflect on their videogames analysis.
though uh...the article is kindof dumb. but still.
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:01 pm |
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| spinach wrote: |
| I don't know what you're talking about wesley this game feels pretty great! I hope the PC version has a level editor -- can anyone confirm/deny this yet? |
Seriously, it's not even about innovation -- a word that should be wiped from our collective lexicon -- it just feels so right to move. I haven't played anything with this kind of weight since Gargoyles on the Genesis -- man, I wish that game had been good, but just loading up that first level is purest satisfaction. I really don't care what this game does in its later acts, I know for a fact I will load this game up -- just as I do with Buena Vista's Gargoyles -- and play through that first level for the next fifteen years or so of my life. This is a goddamned Videogame. |
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Maztorre
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:09 pm |
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As I was playing, I mentioned to my wife, "can you imagine what this game would be like if they gave you a limited number of lives?"
"Yeah, you would have given up a long time ago," was her response, and I think that's an indicator that there's something keeping the game from being all it could be. |
Breaking news: Home videogame plays better without arbitrary life counter.
It's an indicator that the developers know what they're doing, especially given how the game will save a checkpoint after every few obstacles you clear. After I beat the game once none of the stages have been difficult to clear, instead I've just been speedrunning all the singleplayer stages looking for the hidden routes, and replaying the game on hard. The main issues with the singleplayer stages are the spikes in difficulty that further playtesting could have ironed out for first-time players, and a handful of occasions indoors where they could have telegraphed where to go a bit better (though I quite like the panic that sets in while looking for an exit during Flight). Once you start digging into the time trial mode, especially racing the ghost replays, the genius of the level design starts to shine through.
Calling this game deeply flawed at any similar level to Assassin's Creed is wrongheaded; judging by the time trial mode and subsequent playthroughs of the singleplayer stages, the developers have followed through on their vision almost exactly. The game is somewhat uncompromising until you get a grip on each stage, but the whole point of having a relatively short story mode and lots of short time trial stages is to encourage players to quickly memorise what to do and then start exploiting the stages for shortcuts.
Some niggles:
Too many SWAT cops too soon, and too many cops in general. There are plenty of times where they use the police presence really well (run away from alleys with bullets and flashing lights coming out of them), but the combat engine just doesn't allow for taking out 3 or more enemies to be particularly fun. The riot police/SWAT are so much work to kill in unarmed combat that if you fuck up a disarm you may as well reload the checkpoint. Would have liked the last big police fight to have a bit more weight to it, but by that point I had killed so many by defaulting to guns it just felt a bit anticlimactic. Making a hole and escaping should have been more viable all-round throughout the last few stages, and doing a runthrough where you don't get shot at all should have been feasible.
There are a lot of moments shown in the animated cutscenes that would have been a lot more powerful in first-person, in the game engine. Thought they were on to something good in Flight when you get into the offices, but they fail to capitalise on that in later scenes. Should have been kind of elementary to maintain the first-person perspective after spending so much effort on the physicality of the avatar.
Guys I haven't heard anyone say how gorgeous the shade of green used in this game is. It's sexy as hell.
Last edited by Maztorre on Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bloody heartland
banned
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:25 pm |
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Maz how Sonicy is this
I think games like this and modern!sonic should abandon combat altogether in lieu of enviromental hazards |
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another god
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:28 pm |
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Maz is right. The game gets way better the more you play it. At first I thought that the game was getting repetitive, but here on my second playthrough I'm finding that everything is different if you just want it to be.
But Orange > Green. Just so you know.
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Maztorre
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Ireland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:48 pm |
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| bloody heartland wrote: |
Maz how Sonicy is this
I think games like this and modern!sonic should abandon combat altogether in lieu of enviromental hazards |
It's pretty crazily like Sonic 1 in many places.
I think ME's combat mechanics are fine, they're just stretched to breaking point on 3 or 4 occasions. Whenever you have the momentum/time to deal with an enemy effectively it's exhilarating, especially since the commands are all common sense-based and intuitive in the same way as Mario 64s. Whenever it becomes stressful to handle a group of enemies you start to wonder if there's even any fast way to beat them. This pretty closely relates to some of my peeves with Sonic 2 (enemies designed to very harshly fuck you over) compared to Sonic 1 (enemies that almost always have a method to beat/avoid them that will maintain your momentum). Abandoning the combat isn't really an answer considering there are plenty of times where the combat is thrilling and adds tension, and more importantly, plays really well. Not to mention that it handles melee combat brilliantly in first-person, which is a nice achivement. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:12 pm |
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| sam wrote: |
| Dracko wrote: |
| Why are you people listening to The Guardian? |
why do you feel compelled to make it REALLY CLEAR you don't like the guardian whenever it's linked or mentioned instead of just reading the damn article? we get it, okay, and i don't think their politics reflect on their videogames analysis. |
Well:
| sam wrote: |
| though uh...the article is kindof dumb. but still. |
They have yet to prove they have a basic understanding of anything they care to report on.
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firenze
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Bonus Round
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:21 pm |
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Is it really THAT "innovative" (a word that gets thrown around way, way, way too often these days) to have a platformer with clunky jumping mechanics viewed from a first person perspective? There aren't a bunch of other games that feel exactly like it, but that doesn't mean it's really that radical of an idea.
Besides, maybe all this is showing is that first person perspective is kinda sloppy when you're jumping around. Gears 2 (which plays essentially like a FPS that just happens to show your character) has some platformy sections that are a good contrast.
If Mirror's Edge didn't have the interesting art direction, nobody would care about it on its own merits. As it is, I'm not even a fan of the art style (so sterile and bland), but I'll admit that it's at least distinctive.
Massive third party published action game, big fanfare holiday release, hype that greatly exceeds the game quality. How does this not sound like the 2008 version of Assassin's Creed again? |
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sam
Joined: 28 May 2007
Location: osaka
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:22 pm |
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well, the guardian gamesblog is pretty good! i'd take it over, like, kotaku.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:37 pm |
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| Maztorre wrote: |
| I think ME's combat mechanics are fine, they're just stretched to breaking point on 3 or 4 occasions. |
Incidentally this is exactly how I feel about Sands of Time.
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SuperWes
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:47 pm |
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So uhh, guys. Here's the Guardian's review of Mirror's Edge. The irony is that the reviewer breaks the game down totally in terms that the other Guardian blogger complains about other sites for doing. He starts with graphics, moves on to controls, moves on to story, and finally moves on to game length, complaining about each piece individually rather than focusing on the experience as a whole. It's not a very good review or a very positive one. If we're going by numbers, (and lets face it, numbers are the first thing most people look at) it's exactly 6/100ths higher than IGN's.
And in response to spinach, who has no idea how someone could find fault with the game, many of the issues I've already presented are discussed in the Guardian review as well. Here are a few:
| Quote: |
| Mirror's Edge is frustrating at times. You will definitely spend a lot of time plummeting to your death/swearing at the screen. |
| Quote: |
| Finding the right path through the rooftops and interiors is not always obvious, even when using the guidance button. Blundering through is not always an option. |
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| The combat is disappointing and detracts from the purity of the game. |
And although he attempts to redeem the game a bit at the end, the overall theme of the review is the same thing I've been saying all along: "In short: it's very good but not the classic it could have been." I couldn't agree more with this. It's a very good game, but it's been released smack dab in the center of dozens of great games that are far more deserving of your attention, regardless of whether or not you believe innovation should be rewarded with your dollars.
-Wes
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:53 pm |
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| sam wrote: |
| well, the guardian gamesblog is pretty good! i'd take it over, like, kotaku. |
See, I fail to notice any difference other than the use of rhetoric to cover up spewing nonsense.
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:08 pm |
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| Wes, I can totally understand how a guy could find fault with the game. I do believe that what you say holds ground. But what I'm saying is none of those faults matter, because it is perfect. |
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another god
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:58 pm |
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People are telling us to play Gears of War 2 instead of Mirror's Edge. What the fuck. I was under the understanding that GoW2 is just Gears of War: The Lost Levels. Except with more dick.
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bloody heartland
banned
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:03 am |
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| Maztorre wrote: |
| bloody heartland wrote: |
Maz how Sonicy is this
I think games like this and modern!sonic should abandon combat altogether in lieu of enviromental hazards |
It's pretty crazily like Sonic 1 in many places.
I think ME's combat mechanics are fine, they're just stretched to breaking point on 3 or 4 occasions. Whenever you have the momentum/time to deal with an enemy effectively it's exhilarating, especially since the commands are all common sense-based and intuitive in the same way as Mario 64s. Whenever it becomes stressful to handle a group of enemies you start to wonder if there's even any fast way to beat them. This pretty closely relates to some of my peeves with Sonic 2 (enemies designed to very harshly fuck you over) compared to Sonic 1 (enemies that almost always have a method to beat/avoid them that will maintain your momentum). Abandoning the combat isn't really an answer considering there are plenty of times where the combat is thrilling and adds tension, and more importantly, plays really well. Not to mention that it handles melee combat brilliantly in first-person, which is a nice achivement. |
Seriously though, doesn't it just do your head in that fast, flowing combat is such a headache in 3D? Jet Set Radio Future and Mirror's Edge both have Very Good Ideas for applying what I liked about Sonic to 3D but in each, from my experience, the combat is a big bag of fucking pump (OK, haven't played all of Mirror's Edge yet). Obviously the monster that wears Sonic's hacked off skin decided this homing dash rubbish was the way forward, but that just lead to the death of momentum based runny gameplay. JSRF gets around this to a degree by avoiding the issue. |
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Mikey
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Location: endless backlog
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:42 am |
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| firenze wrote: |
clunky jumping mechanics
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The jumping mechanics are fine, it's the level design that gets in the way at times.
Your comparison to Assassin's Creed makes me think about how both games are flawed, and as such can provide a springboard for the development of much better games (not necessarily referring to sequels, here). These games make me look forward to future games, with respect to how the good parts of each will be borrowed/riffed on by others. I think there's some value in that.
And Maz is right: that is a sexy, sexy green.
Last edited by Mikey on Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Cossix
submersible administrator
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: San Jose
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:45 am |
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| another god wrote: |
| People are telling us to play Gears of War 2 instead of Mirror's Edge. What the fuck. I was under the understanding that GoW2 is just Gears of War: The Lost Levels. Except with more dick. |
Mirror's Edge is probably a more interestng game than Gears 2, yeah. Gears 2 is just a lot more polished. |
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:07 am |
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I think the real point is that they don't occupy the same space; why not play both? If your time is limited, well, you know, in a couple months there won't be a dozen great games coming out and you can play whichever one you didn't play now then.
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Jam
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:17 am |
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| Cossix wrote: |
| another god wrote: |
| People are telling us to play Gears of War 2 instead of Mirror's Edge. What the fuck. I was under the understanding that GoW2 is just Gears of War: The Lost Levels. Except with more dick. |
Mirror's Edge is probably a more interestng game than Gears 2, yeah. Gears 2 is just a lot more polished. |
Also I think ag is undervaluing that polish and the idea of gaming with sb dudes.
It's fine if you prefer what ME does, but Gears 2 deserves much more than a scoff and a brush off.
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jjsimpso
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:49 am |
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| Reiterating/agreeing that the core mechanics of mirror's edge are great, and that it is the level design which sometimes drags the experience down. I think most anyone who puts some time into the time trial mode will realize this, mainly because most of the level design issues are eliminated. Seriously, mirror's edge is one of the best racing games I've ever played. |
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another god
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:49 am |
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| Mikey wrote: |
| firenze wrote: |
clunky jumping mechanics
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The jumping mechanics are fine, it's the level design that gets in the way at times. |
The level design isn't bad. It's just not something you're used to seeing. Wait a couple weeks and you'll see youtube videos speed running the game in simple, understandable ways.
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bloody heartland
banned
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:49 am |
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I think Portal would be a better game if it cut to the chase a lot quicker. Thanks for being a dick about it, though. |
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Lurky
banned
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:14 pm |
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| All those starter missions in Portal aren't there for plot reasons. They exist so the player doesn't get stuck later on. The testers were getting stuck a lot. |
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