|
|
View previous topic :: View next topic
|
| Author |
Message |
Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
|
 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:55 am |
  |
|
It works sometimes, though! That's when good threads happen!
Though, yeah, you've got a point.
_________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:29 am |
|
|
| this guy wrote: |
| Games are intentionally difficult. If all you knew about golf was that you had to get this ball in that hole, your first thought would be to hop in your cart and drive it over there. But no, you have to knock the ball in, with special sticks. This is just about the stupidest possible way to complete the task, and also the only thing that makes golf interesting. Games create an environment conducive to the acceptance of artificial difficulties. |
Granted, there's a difference between games as such and videogames as such.
Still. Relate to Castlevania.
Or to pedophilia. Whatever works for you. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:13 pm |
|
|
That's an excellent point. It seems like good points can only be applied to well established things like golf though.
_________________
The bad sleep well at The Gamer's Quarter |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:49 pm |
|
|
So, it seems like even with the story breaking early from 1up not EGM, there is a little bit left to be found in the Magazine Edition of the Rondo of Blood (Dracula X Chronicles) release for the PSP. All info stolen from EGM issue 213.
First, let’s get some quotes from Iga: “We were inspired by all the fans that have been asking for a title with 3D graphics and 2D gameplay for so long. Since Rondo of Blood never received a proper release outside of Japan, we decided it would be a perfect candidate for a remake.”
At this point I question why Iga didn’t point out that he said he wanted to bring this game out since the original Chronicles release 6 years ago in an interview on the PS1 disc. It seems more likely that if he was playing to the fans, as he claims, that he would have said something more akin to “See guys! I live up to my promises.” Though, I’m sure he probably didn’t want to remind us Americans (and Brits!) about our failure to purchase that game. But, back to Iga:
“Even though we are remaking Rondo in 3D, our goal is to retain the look and feel of the original 2D game. The first stage is especially faithful so gamers can easily transition to our new look if they were familiar with our original game.”
Is this some kind of backhanded statement about how “we know it doesn’t look as awesome, but hopefully we lower your expectations enough that you’ll find things looking good later in the game to be good enough”? The world can only wait in patient antici
Pation. But that’s not all! Igarashi can’t leave the original game alone: “We’ve changed some of the original stages so that more experienced players could still enjoy the exploration and surprise of playing it for the first time. Plus, we’re making drastic changes to one level [ed: Oh noes!] and adding some light collection elements to the overall game [ed: gouging eyes out with spoons here], but the basic gameplay will still be pretty faithful.”
Pretty faithful? Hmm. Anyways, reading down a bit I noticed that Shane Bettenhausen slipped a mickey into my drink. “[H]e does know that the original TurboDuo version of Rondo will be unlockable on the disc.” Crap. Well, there goes any chance of ignoring the remake.
Though, honestly, I guess I didn’t expect anything else. I even joked around with a friend about the addition of collectable elements to the game. Oh that Igarashi! As we have come to know this is a release called “Dracula X Chronicles” as in, both games in the DracX series, so Symphony of the Night will also be included on the disc (UMD). With the release of SotN right around the corner (and outside the timeframe of FKW) it seems a bit odd to port the game twice in one year… but wait!
EGM claims that the game is getting reprogrammed so that it is going to fit the widescreen format of the PSP. I don’t know if this is actually amazing or horrible. On one hand, this is the first time that I can recall a game that’s getting converted to widescreen not just involve a stretched format, or a cropped format (or even the in-a-box format), but actually reprogrammed so that you can see additional items which were originally outside the viewing area. On the other hand, this is a travesty for the XBLA release which is going to be in the original 4:3 aspect ration. It’s a bit unfair that a system which is going to be widely ignored by fans of this type of genre (if past sales of both Chronicles and PSP fixed plane platformers are any indication), and yet a console that is on my damn TV which is connected to a system who’s prime feature is widescreen High Definition isn’t getting this kind of attention. As I swallow my tears I shall digress.
Aside from that there will be some minor background tweak, and audio tweaks for SotN, but they’ll “only be making changes to the parts I’m not satisfied with,” states Iga. Bettenhausen claims that this is going to be for the voice acting, but I have a feeling it will be more than just that.
As any “would-be Belmont” knows, the PS1 version of SotN wasn’t the only one released. Recently the Saturn version of the game was lambasted on the 1up Retro Show by Jeremy Parish and crew. But we all know that you’ve been dieing to see these things added to an official version of SotN without the drawbacks of the Saturn hardware. Two new areas, selectable playable characters from the start, and a whole new character, Maria (who I’m told plays a bit like Mega Man, and is possibly the only reason to try the Saturn version). But what does Igarashi have to say when asked about these things getting put on the Chronicles collection?
“Good question, but I’m afraid that’s a secret for now. All I can say is that we’re planning to incorporate new content that is going to be really enjoyable for anyone who is a fan of the game.”
For as negative as this may sound, I’m actually pretty happy about most of this news. Let’s hope that Iga has the sense not to completely deface the games that got him where he is today.
_________________
The bad sleep well at The Gamer's Quarter |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:07 pm |
|
|
Ugh, I hope I don't have to play through the new fangled 3D version to get to the old one, especially after I let a guilty conscience keep me from playing through a pirate copy of the original for five years.
And I'm pretty sure there is no God, or if one exists he's kind of a dick. Bible II God would've put this game on a TV. And I'm pretty positive right now that IGA won't bother to stretch the pixels so they look how they're suppossed to. Same thing with the Saturn extras- if he was going to include them he'd have bragged about it like he brags about everything.
Also, Jeremy Parish seems like a stupid asshole. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
dementia
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:50 am |
|
|
| showka wrote: |
| Also, Jeremy Parish seems like a stupid asshole. |
That's only because the internet hates him. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:30 am |
|
|
| showka wrote: |
| if he was going to include them he'd have bragged about it like he brags about everything. |
generally producers brag/make stuff sound good so that people will buy it
so yeah you're kind of bashing the man for doing his job gj next map |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
bort
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Are you related to Bandai and Namco takes of games Sent from my iPhone
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:16 am |
|
|
| Quote: |
“Even though we are remaking Rondo in 3D, our goal is to retain the look and feel of the original 2D game. The first stage is especially faithful so gamers can easily transition to our new look if they were familiar with our original game.”
Is this some kind of backhanded statement about how “we know it doesn’t look as awesome, but hopefully we lower your expectations enough that you’ll find things looking good later in the game to be good enough”? |
maybe he's trying to convince "purist" fucks not to be... you know, "purist" fucks and actually try the game. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:59 pm |
|
|
| diplo wrote: |
| showka wrote: |
| if he was going to include them he'd have bragged about it like he brags about everything. |
generally producers brag/make stuff sound good so that people will buy it
so yeah you're kind of bashing the man for doing his job gj next map |
To me he comes off as dishonest or egotistical, especially since he used to totally slam everyone besides him who'd made a Castlevania game since SOTN. It seems like he's not hocking the game or the franchise so much as he's hocking his own pristine version of how the franchise should be. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:19 pm |
|
|
| showka wrote: |
| To me he comes off as dishonest or egotistical, especially since he used to totally slam everyone besides him who'd made a Castlevania game since SOTN. |
i guess i'd also be perturbed to know that after i set about trying to put more structure into something, other individuals came by and did stuff in the messiest way yet.
i mean, was he wrong about circle of the moon being a boring looking game? was he wrong about the card system not having any context?
did he really ever "totally slam" anything? he had valid critiques of the failings of kcek's games. they were responsible for putting castlevania into a three or four year rut. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
dementia
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:34 pm |
|
|
| diplo wrote: |
i guess i'd also be perturbed to know that after i set about trying to put more structure into something, other individuals came by and did stuff in the messiest way yet.
i mean, was he wrong about circle of the moon being a boring looking game? was he wrong about the card system not having any context?
did he really ever "totally slam" anything? he had valid critiques of the failings of kcek's games. they were responsible for putting castlevania into a three or four year rut. |
I think you're giving too much credit to Igarashi for SotN. That credit goes to Toru Hagihara. They destroyed the structure of Toru Hagihara's game.
Iga's shining moment was Aria. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:48 pm |
|
|
| we really don't know how much each member was involved, for sure, ultimately. i'm willing to believe that symphony was mostly the product of a freshly inspired igarashi and tightly knit team of extremely capable, and now mostly missing, designers. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:17 am |
|
|
| diplo wrote: |
i mean, was he wrong about circle of the moon being a boring looking game? |
In a way. Circle of the Moon is the best looking of the three games when played on the Gameboy Player. The backgrounds typically look better in the other games but the sprites look much better. Also, Circle seemed to work within the confines of its resolution instead of trying to cheat around them. I think the graphics in the non circle games are slightly off. Many of the objects look cramped or something, it always make me wish the resolution was higher. Its hard for me to describe it, but I guess what I'm saying is Circle's artwork seems to have more depth or realism to it. So if IGA did say that he was wrong and its annoying that a man who's take on Castlevania is the only one we're ever going to see again still has to take digs at other peoples valid attempts at interpretting a game series he didn't create.
| Quote: |
was he wrong about the card system not having any context? |
No, but that didn't matter. The context was that the cards were magic, so he used them just like you'd use any item in a videogame. In fact, IGA's insistence on explaining everything would be welcome if it weren't so stupid. The entire intro of Lament is just so we won't freak out that Leon is using magic items - see, he has a magical gauntlet! Also, Juste could use magic books, which is a much bigger break from context than the card thing in Circle - those at least work with the whip (if Richter could set his whip on fire, why couldn't someone else use magical cards to boost its power?). The explanation - that Juste inexplicably has a lot more DNA from Sypha Fernandez, who mated with Trevor over 200 years earlier, than any other playable direct male descendent that has existed before or since, isn't what I'd call satisifying. In fact, its ridiculous people will point that KCEK pissed on sacred continuity by introducing those cards and yet ignore the really dumb reason Juste can use magic.
Also, I really enjoyed the hell out of that card system. If Circle of the Moon only had a monster listing or some other mechanism that showed you how to get each card without forcing you to resort to GameFaqs, I'd be able to say it was the best GBA installment with a clear conscience.
| Quote: |
did he really ever "totally slam" anything? he had valid critiques of the failings of kcek's games. they were responsible for putting castlevania into a three or four year rut. |
Here's the big difference. IGA's latest games have made me bored with a series I once greatly respected, where as KCEK's games did not (even though they were far from perfect). So when he used to always put down their efforts and talk about how his next game would be "the TRUE" sequel to SOTN (and wipe the floor with the games made by IGA's rivals), and then it wasn't four times in a row (Harmony, Aria, Lament, Dawn of Sorrow), it made me think the guy was a blowhard. And it also made me think he was a braggart, always talking about the next great thing he was going to accomplish, only he never truly succeeded.
Aria was a damn fine game, and probably the best thing he's done since SOTN, really, but it is hardly a successor to SOTN and whether or not its better than Circle of the Moon is arguable. When I go back, I find Circle of the Moon's music and combat / gameplay satisifies me even though I've seen everything already. I also think Circle had the best extras of the post SOTN series, with the three additional ways to play the game as well as some of the super cool hidden stuff like the bear ring. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:09 pm |
|
|
| showka wrote: |
| So if IGA did say that he was wrong |
lol
circle of the moon may have a darker pallette, but the game is nearly impossible to see on a gba. besides that, there is a tremendous lack of creativity in the art. every area seems to be a variation on brick colors or simple arches. there's really nothing that makes you peer closer to check out whatever may be hiding in curious details.
it's a bit funny how you can play portrait of ruin and see just what places the circle team worked on. they're the only locations with just brick walls.
also, each of circle's sprites have, like, two frames of animation - keeping in line with nathan's game and watch sprite, i guess! a far cry from the beautifully detailed shit in hod through dos.
| Quote: |
| No, but that didn't matter. The context was that the cards were magic, so he used them just like you'd use any item in a videogame. In fact, IGA's insistence on explaining everything would be welcome if it weren't so stupid. The entire intro of Lament is just so we won't freak out that Leon is using magic items - see, he has a magical gauntlet! |
i don't really see what's stupid about that? i think it's pretty cool that the guy cares so much about explaining all those abstractions! he's still got some stuff to do, like the morning star transformation, and i wish he'd pay equal attention to other things, but - hey.
| Quote: |
| Also, Juste could use magic books, which is a much bigger break from context than the card thing in Circle - those at least work with the whip (if Richter could set his whip on fire, why couldn't someone else use magical cards to boost its power?). The explanation - that Juste inexplicably has a lot more DNA from Sypha Fernandez, who mated with Trevor over 200 years earlier, than any other playable direct male descendent that has existed before or since, isn't what I'd call satisifying. |
i don't know what to say here man
i guess lol?
no matter what way you look at it, it's got more support than circle's "so i herd u liek yugioh" gimmick. i mean, an explanation > no explanation as long as it's got some coherency. and that certainly does!
believing circle's card system to be superior probably arises from the game's difficulty. slip aria's soul system or hod's spellbooks into it and you've got a much more cohesive, smart structure. i appreciate discreetness, but not to a fault - circle's card system has you pray that you end up with more than two cards near the end and requires you grind on a select few enemies in order to produce anything.
compare that to aria, where every single monster may relinquish something. not only do you have a much better chance of interacting with the fat of the game, but you've got more variety. in harmony, to experience all the system has to offer, exploration is all that's required. that's nice.
| Quote: |
| Here's the big difference. IGA's latest games have made me bored with a series I once greatly respected, where as KCEK's games did not (even though they were far from perfect). |
could you explain to me how that is a big difference? i'm not sure how personal dissatisfaction completely rules out a person's claims.
| Quote: |
| Aria was a damn fine game, and probably the best thing he's done since SOTN, really, but it is hardly a successor to SOTN |
i disagree!
aria's probably got the most intelligently designed castle since symphony. what it loses in gobby, loving looseness and airiness it gains in momentum, perfect pacing and very entertaining conciseness. i'll definitely agree to it not reaching the level symphony set, but it's probably the most accessible and easily playable entry in the series. aria's free of the "grind to get weapons and more powerful souls" bullshit, as well as the heavy copy-pasting of dos and por. the caves feel like actual caves, the clock tower is a clock tower crammed with gears and spikes, and the enemies invariably have memorable and fitting, though usually not demanding, situating.
it's a splendidly made game, mostly hampered by the boring soundtrack.
i don't know why you bother posting such long stuff when hardly any of it is backed up. ;___; |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:37 pm |
|
|
| showka wrote: |
| If Circle of the Moon only had a monster listing or some other mechanism that showed you how to get each card without forcing you to resort to GameFaqs, I'd be able to say it was the best GBA installment with a clear conscience. |
I would like CotM a lot more with this, and then a toning down of dracula's second form. I feel that you need to grind levels a little too much to beat him. I've still never freaking done it. I have tons of hours clocked in, and cleared out about half of the colliseum, but I still can't beat him. I never really minded the game, and like it better than some of the follow ups, but I still think that HoD is probably my favorite portable castlevania.
God I really need to finish PoR ;_;
_________________
The bad sleep well at The Gamer's Quarter |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:31 pm |
|
|
| diplo wrote: |
no matter what way you look at it, it's got more support than circle's "so i herd u liek yugioh" gimmick. i mean, an explanation > no explanation as long as it's got some coherency. and that certainly does!
|
The basis was the familar cards in Symphony. Its bullshit to call it a gimmick since it added so much to the game. Also, explanation that is nonsense or illogical = no explanation to me. I guess its just a matter of opinion?
| diplo wrote: |
also, each of circle's sprites have, like, two frames of animation - keeping in line with nathan's game and watch sprite, i guess! a far cry from the beautifully detailed shit in hod through dos.
|
This is true. I wish the Circle Team could make another game that wasn't a launch title so they could have added more detail.
| Quote: |
believing circle's card system to be superior probably arises from the game's difficulty. slip aria's soul system or hod's spellbooks into it and you've got a much more cohesive, smart structure. i appreciate discreetness, but not to a fault - circle's card system has you pray that you end up with more than two cards near the end and requires you grind on a select few enemies in order to produce anything.
compare that to aria, where every single monster may relinquish something. not only do you have a much better chance of interacting with the fat of the game, but you've got more variety. in harmony, to experience all the system has to offer, exploration is all that's required. that's nice. |
You have a good point here. My last playthrough of Circle I printed out a list of which enemies dropped which cards and found I enjoyed it more than the other games. But the fact I had to do this points to a huge flaw in the game.
Also, I beat Harmony originally after only discovering two spell books. I never thought they were hidden in intuitive places. I thought the DSS system had more variety than Aria's soul system as well. Aria's weapon souls were usually weapons that could be used by hitting up plus B, while the DSS system had some effects that changed your main attack. b The other games of course let you equip new weapons but I always prefered the crazy attacks in Circle, like the flame whip or the sword of roses and thorns. Using them just felt more satisfying. Its also worth pointing out the DSS system existed on top of the traditional weapon system, which I missed in Aria.
| Quote: |
| showka wrote: |
| Here's the big difference. IGA's latest games have made me bored with a series I once greatly respected, where as KCEK's games did not (even though they were far from perfect). |
could you explain to me how that is a big difference? i'm not sure how personal dissatisfaction completely rules out a person's claims. |
I guess when someone repeatedly says that someone else's work is bad while creating work of similar quality it rubs me the wrong way? Its like he said "Don't worry we learned from all the stupid mistakes in game X, which by the way I was not involved and didn't like" and then made game Y with all new mistakes and omissions that made me appreicate game X more.
| diplo wrote: |
| showka wrote: |
| Aria was a damn fine game, and probably the best thing he's done since SOTN, really, but it is hardly a successor to SOTN |
i disagree!
stuff
|
Aria doesn't feel like the next epic installment of Castlevania, it feels like a well crafted and fun portable game that attempts to sort of emulate SOTN.
The castle is well designed, but too tiny - you walk straight across it right at the start of the game, which reinforces its dimunitive size. The game has some nice boss battles, but the first four bosses are just normal enemies. By the time you fight something interesting, you've finished almost half of the game. The lack of good bosses makes the pacing feel lopsided, since all the cool stuff happens towards the end. That doesn't mean the game isn't really good, but it does make it feel like there are pieces missing. That feeling is what keeps the game from feeling like the successor to SOTN, for me personally, because I kept feeling like it was lacking something.
Circle of the Moon on the other hand only felt like it was too short, but everything that was there was good.
Circle isn't close to the same level as SOTN and definetly has it problems, but when you first play it you think, "This is the next Castlevania game." It has to do with how great the music and the first area is, really. The game starts off by surprising you- you confront Dracula at the intro, and start playing in the Catacombs to some of the best music in the series. You then pick up your first DSS card, and thus begin to experiment with that, and afterwards you fight a boss who's actually capable of killing you if you don't pay attention. The only part of the game that feels cheap is that the same music is used for all of the central hub, even though the game gives parts of the hub different labels. Even then, I never though "Oh, this is because I'm playing a little portable game, one day those bastards at Konami will give IGA the money and time he needs to make THE REAL SEQUEL TO SOTN HE'S ALWAYS WANTED TO MAKE."
| Quote: |
i don't know why you bother posting such long stuff when hardly any of it is backed up. ;___; |
Yeah, its called an opinion, and technically its impossible to back up why you enjoy one thing more than another. You tried by just listing elements of Aria that you prefered, yet you didn't back up why you preferred Arias pacing or momentum. And I'm glad you didn't because I probably would have disagreed with your reasons anyway. For example, the clock tower is indeed a cool level, yet it can only be reached by traveling through a garden that warps space in time. Btw, that's a crazy inconsistency IGA never explicitly explained. How I curse him for not including specific dialogue explaining why the gardens were able to warp space in time even though none of the other levels did. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:08 pm |
|
|
| showka wrote: |
| Also, explanation that is nonsense or illogical = no explanation to me. |
i'm still not seeing how juste being unique, in terms of having prominent belnades genes, is a horrible reason. he's a prodigy.
| Quote: |
| It has to do with how great the music and the first area is, really. The game starts off by surprising you- you confront Dracula at the intro, and start playing in the Catacombs to some of the best music in the series. You then pick up your first DSS card, and thus begin to experiment with that, and afterwards you fight a boss who's actually capable of killing you if you don't pay attention. |
so, in summary, cotm is a true successor because it begins with good music and a boss battle in which you can die?
okay!!
circle of the moon is a technically fine game. and i guess my biggest beef with it is that: it generally has an acceptable, sufficient framework, though it never achieves genuine interest.
really, it's pretty cold. it's like kcek finally realized how poor their other efforts were, and decided to go back to the winning formula of symphony, though, in the process, forget how to make it feel like it belonged to the series.
not to say igarashi isn't guilty of neglecting that certain feeing. portrait of ruin, at many points, seems to be an entirely different creature.
still, i chastise cotm for simply of doing the math and forgetting to investigate, to bring out the aesthetics in the curve and angle of the numbers.
when i play harmony of dissonance or aria of sorrow, there's this gushing, geeky love that totally blows circle out of the water. this isn't all there is to the series, but it's an undeniably big part.
castlevania installments have often been average action games with a fantastic sense for atmosphere. when this is betrayed, the games feel more generic. perhaps they are structurally sound, but they lack the flavor, the mood that makes delving into what they have to offer unique and personal and charismatic.
in the end, circle of the moon doesn't really have soul. it's a neat diversion, but the only thing it has to offer over aria is a bigger challenge - and that arises because of greater damage dished out, rather than intelligent placement or superior enemy behavior. furthermore, the challenge isn't significant, unless you place it alongside, say, harmony. people who deem the game "tough" probably haven't played too many castlevania games, or games in general.
i never thought "difficulty" was one of the selling points of castlevania, anyway. instead, i viewed intelligent design as the more important facet. bloodlines is an easy game, but it's enormously fun to plow through because every section has you doing something different. circle of the moon makes you run through corridor after corridor, killing the game line of enemies over and over - and it's a bit tough. but it's not fun.
aos's guilty of this sometimes, too. but, well - there are things to do, like the trial rooms in the arena and pushing the boat down the slope. shit actually goes on in the clock tower, instead of it being a bunch of platforms that go up and down with some fox archers here and there.
aria's castle may be smaller, and i concede that i long for a game with its design along with larger boundaries, but it's simply more well-considered. circle of the moon has some really good places - the machine tower, chapel, and observatory tower - yet, it is overwhelmingly weighed down by big, plain boxes and tiringly zig-zaggy rooms.
aria is more subtle - more...i don't know, rhythmic and varied. cotm is procedural and stilted, out in the open, forcing you to continue onwards in alternating motions of an extremely dull, concentrated manner. as a result, progression and attractiveness suffer.
as i said before, it also does not help that there's almost nothing to see in the castle. coming upon majestic sights was one of the strong points of symphony, as it was in aria, or harmony, too, but that sensibility is lost to cotm, which decides on solely containing the exploratory rewards in the HP, MP, or Heart power-ups littered about. i'm very aware of the importance of mechanics and "good, old, plain satisfaction," but circle deprives the player of the joy of coming to new areas and immersing themselves in any rich atmosphere. again, there's the math, but without the art. this is an enormous component of the series, and cotm is a huge mess of grey and brown squares.
the music is okay, but kcek kills "the sinking old sanctuary," and the remixes aren't that hot. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:27 am |
|
|
| Quote: |
still, i chastise cotm for simply of doing the math and forgetting to investigate, to bring out the aesthetics in the curve and angle of the numbers. |
Just because someone's take on Castlevania isn't 100% IGA approved its unjust to say they were just farting it out.
| diplo wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It has to do with how great the music and the first area is, really. The game starts off by surprising you- you confront Dracula at the intro, and start playing in the Catacombs to some of the best music in the series. You then pick up your first DSS card, and thus begin to experiment with that, and afterwards you fight a boss who's actually capable of killing you if you don't pay attention. |
so, in summary, cotm is a true successor because it begins with good music and a boss battle in which you can die?
okay!!
|
Good job on the partial quote! Actually, what I was saying (if you read the sentence after that) is that Circle of the Moon never feels like a compromise. You never think, "Oh well, I'm sure they'll put something more genuine here next time I buy a Castlevania game."
And enemy placement and behavior in Circle was great. You can go through the entire game without getting hit if you're thoughtful and methodical, and don't rush through everything like its possible to do in every Castlevania game since SOTN. The difficulty in Circle happens because the enemies are designed to hurt you and not just stand around looking pretty until you whack them enough times.
| Quote: |
as i said before, it also does not help that there's almost nothing to see in the castle. coming upon majestic sights was one of the strong points of symphony, as it was in aria, or harmony, too, but that sensibility is lost to cotm, which decides on solely containing the exploratory rewards in the HP, MP, or Heart power-ups littered about. i'm very aware of the importance of mechanics and "good, old, plain satisfaction," but circle deprives the player of the joy of coming to new areas and immersing themselves in any rich atmosphere. again, there's the math, but without the art. this is an enormous component of the series, and cotm is a huge mess of grey and brown squares.
|
I agree with you on this, but I think you're being too hard on it. Circle of the Moon is not without interesting areas. The best example was the ringing bells in the chapel tower. Catacombs also has area with interestng back drops, like the graves or tombs in the background, or the rooms filled with gold. The game does have too many areas that are just gray or brown squares but many of these areas do have a sense of atmosphere. The best example is the underground water way. The music (even though its a remix) is perfect, and despite most of the areas using the same tile set, the place somehow feels cold, damp and murky. Something I like about Circles graphics is how the seem to make the castle seem really large and real somehow.
| Quote: |
| cotm is procedural and stilted, out in the open, forcing you to continue onwards in alternating motions of an extremely dull, concentrated manner. |
How can a game be both "procedural" and "concentrated" yet "out in the open?" Many of the areas in the castle were cavernous and tried to be different from SOTN or the SOTN imitators that came after it. Thats one of the reasons I can go back to it so much easier that the other games, because chances are I haven't just played a Castlevania that was extremely similar to it.
| Quote: |
the music is okay, but kcek kills "the sinking old sanctuary," and the remixes aren't that hot. |
Disagree (it was good), agree (you hear it too damn much and there are better remixes of it out there), and disagree (they're a bit better than the ones in Dawn of Sorrow). |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:51 am |
|
|
| showka wrote: |
| Just because someone's take on Castlevania isn't 100% IGA approved its unjust to say they were just farting it out. |
who said this was something to do with iga? you're pretty eager to equate the guy with any negativity.
this is something that the series has striven for since simon's quest.
circle feels like an 2d action/adventure game with an artificial "castlevania glossing."
| Quote: |
| many of these areas do have a sense of atmosphere. |
sadly, that atmosphere is listless and uninspired. there're no moments where you are able to imagine the artists' eyes sparkling and saying, "now, this will blow them away!" or maybe they were just delusional, and thought people would be floored by the varied textures of bricks!
cotm being an early gba title doesn't have that much to do with the graphics. harmony was igarashi's team's first gba release, and it's still probably the best looking thing for the handheld.
in portrait of ruin, there's a battle arena - and the background looks exactly like one in circle. technical freedom doesn't make a difference when people are artistically dead.
| Quote: |
| How can a game be both "procedural" and "concentrated" yet "out in the open?" |
it is procedural because interaction is marred by the poorly implemented controls. i think castlevania 1's mobility is in excellent conjunction with the stages, so preference isn't really an issue, here. it's more of "why the fuck do i have to stop, position myself, and then double tap the walk button whenever i platform." it may feel more involving at first, but it quickly becomes annoying and almost turns nathan into a stickshift car. there's no reason for it to be there. baggage gained after the pointless "you were walking but now you can run too oh god dude" section. controls that achieve a constant median are the best for the metroid formula.
it is concentrated, because platforming is often extremely repetitious. almost every tower is a zig-zagging tower where the spacing between stuff rarely changes.
it is out in the open, because a lot of the rooms are quite large and because the game does nothing to mess with the redundancy of the platforming. dullness is laid bare, and the spaces containing it are mostly big.
| Quote: |
| (they're a bit better than the ones in Dawn of Sorrow). |
that's not saying too much, since the ones in dawn were shitty versions of the rondo remixes. :[ |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:31 am |
|
|
| Quote: |
who said this was something to do with iga? you're pretty eager to equate the guy with any negativity.
this is something that the series has striven for since simon's quest. |
I'm not trying equate the guy with negativity, and Circle looks more like the classic games than Aria of Harmony. IGA has a kind of style that came through a lot in SOTN, and every game he's made since then he tries to adapt to that style. Why some people think adhering to this IGA style is the most important factor in any new game in the series I do not understand. If you compare Castlevania IV and Bloodlines for instance the styles are totally different. Just because Circle adheres more to the sweeping, majestic qualities of the series (sort of like Castlevania IV) while creating its own style isn't a reason to discount it.
| Quote: |
cotm being an early gba title doesn't have that much to do with the graphics. harmony was igarashi's team's first gba release, and it's still probably the best looking thing for the handheld.
in portrait of ruin, there's a battle arena - and the background looks exactly like one in circle. technical freedom doesn't make a difference when people are artistically dead. |
This is an amazing statement because it allows you to exonerate IGA from any blame in how bad POR is. Its only bad because he let those dirty people who worked on Circle of the Moon touch it, I guess! Did those jerks work on Dawn of Sorrow too? Because there were a lot of areas in that game that looked pretty bland to me. At least the top floor, the caves where you fight Death, and the chapel had to have been outsourced to the Circle team.
| Quote: |
it is procedural because interaction is marred by the poorly implemented controls. i think castlevania 1's mobility is in excellent conjunction with the stages, so preference isn't really an issue, here. it's more of "why the fuck do i have to stop, position myself, and then double tap the walk button whenever i platform." it may feel more involving at first, but it quickly becomes annoying and almost turns nathan into a stickshift car. there's no reason for it to be there. baggage gained after the pointless "you were walking but now you can run too oh god dude" section. controls that achieve a constant median are the best for the metroid formula. |
I liked the controls. You don't have to stop and position yourself before you platform. You have to double tap if you're at a dead stop already, but otherwise you can easily change directions and not have to hit the button twice again. I recognize it as a valid opinion since so many people have it, but I don't understand people who are put out by hitting a direction button twice in a row. Its not that taxing, you do it before you start running somewhere and hold the button down. Games like Astroboy require that you double tap all the time towards the games later stages, yet no one brings it up.
Meanwhile you're defending a game like HOD, where you get anywhere fast you have to constantly mash the buttons on the top of the GBA. Maxium runs fast, but of course he runs fast all the time because I guess the designers had a similar opposition to hitting the d-pad twice. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:04 am |
|
|
Guys Circle of the Moon has the two headed dragon zombie boss that starts to eat the other head to regain life once you defeat the first one. The game can't be all that bad.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:26 am |
|
|
| showka wrote: |
| Circle looks more like the classic games than Aria of Harmony. |
no you're wrong i have graphics i can prove it
hell, man - harmony is overflowing with the aura of the classic games.
you've got the same characteristic, chimerical, gaudy colors and uneasy architecture. i think aderack has said it before: the nes games almost looked like they flickered, in the fashion of some classic horror movie. it was a combination of the pallettes' tones and landmarks that achieved this slightly surreal ambience.
dracula xx is probably the only thing that comes close to cotm's look.
meanwhile!
| Quote: |
| This is an amazing statement because it allows you to exonerate IGA from any blame in how bad POR is. Its only bad because he let those dirty people who worked on Circle of the Moon touch it, I guess! |
all right, i can't tell if you're trolling here. you should probably think a little harder before saying silly stuff like this.
| Quote: |
| Meanwhile you're defending a game like HOD, where you get anywhere fast you have to constantly mash the buttons on the top of the GBA. |
it's a nice convenience. still, juste's normal walking speed is considerably swifter than nathan's, so, no, you don't have to do that. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:18 am |
|
|
Okay, I'll admit that statement was a total brain fart on my part. I just went overboard in that statement as a reaction to you assertion that Circle had completely neglected the visual asthetics of the series. Circle's style is different from the rest of the games, but its hardly out of touch with it.
I'd say this scene:
looks more like the Castlevania I know that this:
| Quote: |
who said this was something to do with iga? you're pretty eager to equate the guy with any negativity.
|
| Quote: |
so, in summary, cotm is a true successor because it begins with good music and a boss battle in which you can die?
okay!! |
| Quote: |
i don't know why you bother posting such long stuff when hardly any of it is backed up. ;___; |
| Quote: |
| showka wrote: |
| Quote: |
cotm being an early gba title doesn't have that much to do with the graphics. harmony was igarashi's team's first gba release, and it's still probably the best looking thing for the handheld.
in portrait of ruin, there's a battle arena - and the background looks exactly like one in circle. technical freedom doesn't make a difference when people are artistically dead. |
This is an amazing statement because it allows you to exonerate IGA from any blame in how bad POR is. Its only bad because he let those dirty people who worked on Circle of the Moon touch it, I guess!
|
all right, i can't tell if you're trolling here. you should probably think a little harder before saying silly stuff like this. |
You've misinterpretted me several times - seemingly on purpose - and out right insulted me as well. Maybe you could just explain how you know what parts of the game the Circle artists drew instead of giving me this backhanded shit about trolling. If the background looks EXACTLY the same as the one from Circle, well, IGA has never had any trouble recycling graphics from the past games, why blame the Circle guys? |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:55 am |
|
|
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| I love [videogames] so much that I must criticize them. |
God, finally, someone around here says this openly and honestly. I want to fucking vomit every time anyone on these forums says they hate videogames.
I just read almost all of this thread, it was pretty entertaining.
_________________
letterboxd | last.fm | steam |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:46 am |
|
|
oh antitype-kun ^_^
Last edited by diplo on Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:18 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:16 am |
|
|
| showka wrote: |
| I'd say this scene looks more like the Castlevania I know that this |
i can't see the screenshot for circle, but i still will agree, anyway, because i am well aware of how devious the sky walkway is!
take note, though, that such pretty delicacy is almost exclusively relegated to the chapel in that game. every other locale is an intelligent merging of the flowery direction of igarashi and the garish, dilapidated sensibility of the "classics," which, i think, is a perfect location for the series: hovering in the past while simultaneously advancing the aesthetic.
with that said, i'd like to defend the chapel's presence: even if it isn't gloomy, it's much more of a memorable and inspired place than any dingy sector of circle's castle. additionally, it allows for the startling, progressive tension of going through the caves and then emerging in the cloudy heavens. i find it a rather profound situation: one place of exquisiteness in an otherwise caliginous structure.
| Quote: |
| Maybe you could just explain how you know what parts of the game the Circle artists drew instead of giving me this backhanded shit about trolling. |
sorry - i found it hard to believe that someone could be that silly outside of trolling!
i know what parts are from the cotm team because, having played circle, and having compared its style to kcet's efforts, i can accurately point out what stuff is done by whom.
example: look at the battle arena background in circle and compare it to the room in portrait where you fight the behemoth. not only is the coloring the same, but so is the shading (kcek's members had a very different, more raw way of shading) and usage of certain architecture.
| Quote: |
| If the background looks EXACTLY the same as the one from Circle, well, IGA has never had any trouble recycling graphics from the past games, why blame the Circle guys? |
because por is the first igavania to enlist the help of the cotm team members.
look man no offense but you're the same person who said you hadn't noticed any ripping of graphics in the saturn version of sotn in however many years when it should have been pretty obvious
i think i know my graphics lol :(
(also: igarashi had never borrowed any environmental art until portrait, which takes some tiles from dawn's lost village and pinnacle and slips them into the city of haze, nation of fools, and master's keep) |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:27 am |
|
|
| Ok, you have convinced me. I still think you're being mean to Circle of the Moon, but I was playing some Harmony today and I was too hard on it in my reaction as well. I still think on the GB Player it looks kind of squished or off in a way that Circle doesn't but I can't really explain what I mean, and its picking a nit anyway. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:07 pm |
|
|
You should be playing these on a GB Micro.
Also, yeah, If I had to ... rank the GBA CV games I would do this:
HoD>CotM>AoS
And... like, I completly understand that I'm crazy.
_________________
The bad sleep well at The Gamer's Quarter |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:59 pm |
|
|
Playing Cotm on the GB Player with the hori pad was when I really started to think highly of the game. And once you realize its not really a game about exploration as it is a traditional, action based Castlevania put in a non-linear world the better.
When I first heard that some of the Circle team was going to be working on PoR, I was excited and thought that maybe the game would feel different somehow, or at least play more like Cotm. Its too bad to hear that the biggest influence was just on the art. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:03 pm |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: |
You should be playing these on a GB Micro.
Also, yeah, If I had to ... rank the GBA CV games I would do this:
HoD>CotM>AoS
And... like, I completly understand that I'm crazy. |
You are crazy. AoS is by far the best and I'd rank CotM and HoD about equally for vastly different reasons.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
