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aerisdead
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:15 pm |
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Yeah. That''s why they went anime for DoS.
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"Did you read that mr. ignorant new games journalist? YOU JUST DON'T FUCKING GET IT. "
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Lestrade
Mary McMoePanties
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Toronto
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dementia
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:14 pm |
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| Anyone thought the new monster sprites in DoS and PoR totally clashed with the SNES/Duo/PSX sprites that accompanied them? |
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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| Okay firenze, we get it, you have mainstream gaming tastes. |
Oh, great. I was wondering when someone was going to turn this into Jocks vs Goths.
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| The fact that IGA's recent games have scored well has more to do with an absolute lack of ANY good 2D games than the particular quality of his own. |
I'm pretty sure that Dawn of Sorrow stands up well for itself, HOLY FRANCHISE aside. It's a big game with cool bosses, neat animation and fun, responsive control. I really dug the Werewolf fights and the room full of succubi you can clear by headstomping and the pentagram hell dimension. Aria was beyond excellent, into near-perfection. Dawn is probably objectively superior but a bit too samey. And PoR hasn't been released yet in the UK.
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| Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin are mildly entertaining 2D diversions that are largely devoid of interesting level design, enemy placement, or satisfying challenge. |
Enemy placement in Castlevania has always been predictable as shit, always - I'm thinking of stage 2 (normal route) in Rondo, where there are a handfull of annoying crows, then some axe armours, then a castle full of the usual respawning zombies. The first series has about as much to say about enemy placement as Crude Busters or Bad Dudes or Shinobi or any other 1980s side scroller. I can't think of anything as cool as the room in Aria with three pendulums or the one with the rotating blades you can slide and puppet-warp through flawlessly. It even has that big cool homage area where the Casltevania 1 starting area is all ruined and volcanic. Then there's the slide puzzle, or the area with multiple wolfmen, or the tower that becomes a shaft. Later, the inverted tower becomes interesting because of it's link to satanic imagery and symbolism, if not for it's cut and pasted-nature - but I'm sure there are areas in SotN like that, just the same. I remember playing them. Oh, and that boss who can stop time? Awesome!
You can either carry around 30 items or try not to get hit. You can play through the game without power-leveling. You have a choice as to how hard the game is, and if you don't take it, you only have yourself to blame. All of the bosses have paterns, all of them have "safe" areas. You are running into this thing as jaded 20 somethings and demanding it impress you. This is what is known as a "bad audience" in musical terminology. It's a sandbox game with multiple possible variations of souls, equipment and playstyles. It's hardly IGA's fault if nobody has the imagination to set up something interesting with such ample material.
Now, see what I just did there? I cited shit, not just repeated some ludacrious conceit Aderack tossed out in an article a few years ago. Show me this great NES era level design. Screengrab or a savestate, I'll take either. Because I don't believe a single word of it - Casltevania was a generic 80s action game with a weird weapon and a unique setting, not much more (until Bloodlines, arguably). |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure that Dawn of Sorrow stands up well for itself, HOLY FRANCHISE aside. It's a big game with cool bosses, neat animation and fun, responsive control. I really dug the Werewolf fights and the room full of succubi you can clear by headstomping and the pentagram hell dimension. Aria was beyond excellent, into near-perfection. Dawn is probably objectively superior but a bit too samey. And PoR hasn't been released yet in the UK. |
I agree about Aria of Sorrow, but Dawn of Sorrow is nowhere as focused or as tight as that game, and is further bogged down by a bunch of half-baked ideas that don't really work out very well.
| JamesE wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin are mildly entertaining 2D diversions that are largely devoid of interesting level design, enemy placement, or satisfying challenge. |
Enemy placement in Castlevania has always been predictable as shit, always - I'm thinking of stage 2 (normal route) in Rondo, where there are a handfull of annoying crows, then some axe armours, then a castle full of the usual respawning zombies. The first series has about as much to say about enemy placement as Crude Busters or Bad Dudes or Shinobi or any other 1980s side scroller. I can't think of anything as cool as the room in Aria with three pendulums or the one with the rotating blades you can slide and puppet-warp through flawlessly. It even has that big cool homage area where the Casltevania 1 starting area is all ruined and volcanic. Then there's the slide puzzle, or the area with multiple wolfmen, or the tower that becomes a shaft. Later, the inverted tower becomes interesting because of it's link to satanic imagery and symbolism, if not for it's cut and pasted-nature - but I'm sure there are areas in SotN like that, just the same. I remember playing them. Oh, and that boss who can stop time? Awesome!
You can either carry around 30 items or try not to get hit. You can play through the game without power-leveling. You have a choice as to how hard the game is, and if you don't take it, you only have yourself to blame. All of the bosses have paterns, all of them have "safe" areas. You are running into this thing as jaded 20 somethings and demanding it impress you. This is what is known as a "bad audience" in musical terminology. It's a sandbox game with multiple possible variations of souls, equipment and playstyles. It's hardly IGA's fault if nobody has the imagination to set up something interesting with such ample material. |
Okay, point by point:
-enemy placement: it's not a matter of being predictable or not but rather how well thought it is. In the first castlevania it's rare to encounter enemies that don't in some way enrich the challenge of the game. Even something as simple as putting a skeleton at the top of a stairway means you have to be careful about how you time your climb so that you can reach the top without taking damage and still have time to kill it. All of the post-sorrow games lack this attention to detail -- instead you have endless hallways filled with skeletons that go down in one hit from your (laughably overpowered) weapon.
it's also worth noting that with the more limited control setups of the earlier games, having more mundane enemy placement was still more engaging. you might find the crows annoying but it's things like that which give castlevania its unique challenge -- figuring out the best way to deal with unusual enemies like that and then planning accordingly. I'm not at all opposed to the controls being loosened up but the level design and enemy placement has to evolve accordingly to keep the challenge up, and it really hasn't. 90% of portrait of ruin is just cutting through hordes of disposable, totally easy enemies and then getting stuck at an unfairly difficult boss fight. this is not the way a castlevania game should be.
-the boss designs in both dawn of sorrow and portrait of ruin (with very few exceptions) are almost universally abysmally bad. they are either pathetically easy or frustratingly cheap. boss design is not an area that the original castlevania excelled in but was something that was done far better in nearly every sequel (part III, IV, Bloodlines, Rondo, and even SotN are have some very tightly designed bosses). even if you choose to not level up or use potions the challenge is largely artificial and based more on your stats then your ability to learn patterns and dodge attacks; the boss fights never become particularly engaging.
-IGA's games are about as sandboxy as Final Fantasy -- which is to say, you have endless customization options but the end result is always just seeing a large damage number appear above your enemy's head. even the different weapon types don't do much to vary your attack strategy -- it's usually just a matter of doing more damage at a slower rate or vice versa.
Anyway, yeah, Dawn of Sorrow had a lot neat things but they weren't held together well at all. I barely remember half the game at this point and this is after multiple playthroughs.
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Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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Ok, while this was to be a light-hearted entry in general I see you're obviously going to take this way too personally and seriously in general.
| JamesE wrote: |
| You can either carry around 30 items or try not to get hit. You can play through the game without power-leveling. You have a choice as to how hard the game is, and if you don't take it, you only have yourself to blame. All of the bosses have paterns, all of them have "safe" areas. You are running into this thing as jaded 20 somethings and demanding it impress you. This is what is known as a "bad audience" in musical terminology. It's a sandbox game with multiple possible variations of souls, equipment and playstyles. It's hardly IGA's fault if nobody has the imagination to set up something interesting with such ample material. |
If this is the case then how come no one can effectively use the argument “shmups are too easy because you just credit feed them, you need to limit your credits to make them harder.” It’s an excuse James, and you know it. While you can make the game harder or easier for yourself it still never captures the feel of a linear platforming game which is heavily based on memorization and skill. At best it’s a challenging adventure game with a Castlevania skin.
The enemy placement thing has more to do with the fact that, as you stated, you can now do really awesome and extravagant things. Why are there now skeletons just standing on ledges that can’t damage you and aren’t hard to kill? When single skeletons use to be placed on ledges it would usually kill you if they threw a bone at you and got knocked back into a bottomless pit. Even just regular bats in the right locations could knock you back into the rotating platforms where you fall to your death.
Castlevania support by the mainstream is nearly gone. It left around the same time that SotN came out. CV use to be a huge game that was bought by hardcore and casual alike. It was a frustrating game that was designed around many, many repeat plays and had to be good for all of them. SotN and onward have been designed (mainly) for one initial play, where repeat plays involve getting more stuff (souls, items, or percent). They’re different games at heart, there’s a split in the fan base.
Things like this happen; the point is that people who are true fans will buy this stuff even though it’s not what they wanted in the game. People like me. When it’s not what we wanted we have every right to say what ever the hell we want: right or wrong isn’t the point. “Castlevania doesn’t love us anymore” isn’t completely off, but there is a large amount of castle-sumerism within the series that is only seen in very few other series. Sonic is one of them, and while you despise the recent games, there are people who (god help them) enjoy those games even though they’re “not all they can be.” Happy yet disappointed. You’re not always right and no one’s opinion is perfect.
EDIT: Toups, you creep me out sometimes.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:39 pm |
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I wonder, from time to time, how it is that people can spend so much time writing retrospectives on games they probably haven't played, and then follow it up with lines of dignified clamor for something that's obviously going downhill. In general, I must wonder, is there really so little happening in the game industry today that we must relegate a great deal of our time looking at games 20 years ago? I constantly see new, more annoying top 100 lists and "must-buy" guides from magazines that are obviously being gang-banged by industry advertising; I haven't (or rarely) see bad reviews for Final Fantasy, for Castlevania, for Mario, for Zelda.
Do they exist? I'm sure they do, but whether or not they have any substance would likely be the harder question to answer--yet it's the important one. Magazines, websites, even any one person: all of them approach games with these annoying slants. For once, I'd like to see a review done by multiple reviewers, or a point/counter-point for games. That doesn't seem to crop up enough, yet games themselves really need a look that is a bit more exhaustive than the current claptrap they receive.
If shows like G4 are any indication, the situation iss actually getting worse instead of better; I suppose that all this tells me though is that somehow, people are still buying more than the industry is losing, and maybe that's the problem. Maybe people need to stop buying games until the industry can get its head out its ass.
/soapbox
I need to find some threads where I don't enter soapbox mode.
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Laurel Soup
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Hitsville, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| Casltevania was a generic 80s action game with a weird weapon and a unique setting, not much more (until Bloodlines, arguably). |
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| it's rare to encounter enemies that don't in some way enrich the challenge of the game. |
I'm with Toups here. Play Ninja Gaiden for contrast, and you'll see how well Castlevania walked that fine line of putting enemies in thoughtful spots as opposed to being downright bastards about it.
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dessgeega
damaged
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| Enemy placement in Castlevania has always been predictable as shit, always - I'm thinking of stage 2 (normal route) in Rondo, where there are a handfull of annoying crows, then some axe armours, then a castle full of the usual respawning zombies. |
the chief difference between the recent, igarashi-directed castlevanias and the earlier ones is mobility. dawn of sorrow, the last one i played, for example, allows the player to quickly move and jump all over the place, wielding any of a variety of weapons that hit in a variety of directions, and to take very many hits before death (far more when using cheaply-available on-demand health-up items).
it's hard to build compelling level design around this because the player is given so many options. how can you have an enemy that attacks from a hard-to-reach location when the player can just bring up the pause screen and choose a weapon that can hit that location? consequently, most of dawn's areas are long, flat rooms where enemies wait for the player.
in the earlier castlevania games, however (let's use rondo as our working example), the player moves at a slower pace and has a more limited jump. however, the player's primary weapon has a long range, but only horizontally. positioning the player character before attacks is crucial. and the player's limited vertical mobility means that situations where enemies are placed above the player - such as skeletons who toss bones downwards - have to be approached with care and strategy, and well-considered use of sub-weapons.
here, i've gone and taken a few maps off of vgmaps.com. i'm going to go through them room by room.
images are big and may not be 56k-friendly.
stage 3 of rondo, main path.
the player starts at A, a multi-level room patrolled by spear knights. these knights have a great range of attack, and are often situated slightly above or below the player. this can be a pretty difficult room for a beginning player; killing the knights involves waiting for an opening, leaping in to attack, and leaping out again before they counterattack. knights on the upper level will occasionally stab down at a player on the lower level; if the player is armed with the axe sub-weapon, though, and enough hearts, she can take out the upper knights before even reaching the upper plane. there's a hidden health-up meat at the end for a player who's had a rough time with the room.
up the stairs at B's chapel, the game starts making the player have to contend with larger numbers of enemies. skeletons attack as the player leaps a few small pits (which lead back down to A); they're fragile but quick and toss bones. as the floor flattens out they attack in greater numbers until the player finds a cross (at the crucifix), clearing the room and allowing her to proceed to C.
while climbing the stairs the player is attacked by fleamen, small enemies who hop around and are very hard to hit, especially on the slanted surface of the stairs. fortunately a bible sub-weapon can be found here, greatly enhancing the player's attack range (it flies outwards in a circle). at the top of the stairs the player is beset upon by flying medusa heads from the left and right. she has to dodge or destroy these while passing over small platforms which if jumped on (either because the player leapt over a head or was knocked back by one) will flip over and deposit her at F, an alternate path. a slow pace and good aim are required to pass this section.
after the player has escaped that gauntlet, she enters a wide, open space (D) where she is challenged by a single, unique foe. this is a larger, neanderthalic version of the skeletons encountered at B, who has a huge range and leaps around the wide space of the room. the player similiarly has to make good use of the open space to dodge its attacks and reciprocate. when the skeleton is killed, the church bell rings and the player is free to pass the door to the candle room (E).
in the candle room the player has to jump across a series of small platforms. many of those platforms are inhabited by the spear knights from A, who with their long range can strike a player on an adjacent platform. while the player is trying to dispatch these and clear the platforms for herself, ghosts are materializing and floating toward her, and can be very difficult to evade and attack because their vertical mobility is so much greater than the player's. if she's knocked off the platforms into one of the holes she'll land at F (though much further along than if she had fallen earlier).
if the player manages to cross all the platforms she'll reach G, where an elevator waits to take her to the alternate boss of the stage (and to the secret alternate stage 4). however, to activate it she'll have to dislodge a rock high overhead, requiring the use of a subweapon such as the bible she picked up at C. immediately before the elevator, though, a thief (similiar to the fleamen at C) attempts to reach the player and grab her sub-weapon.
if the player can't (or chooses not to) reach the secret boss, she'll proceed to the normal boss at H. if she's fallen to F, she'll need to battle up a series of staircases inhabited by skeletons (who perch above the player's normal range of attack and toss bones down at her) and a hall full of bone pillars (who have a longer horizontal range of attack then the player, but whose shots can be deflected with careful aiming). the boss at H is a minotaur who charges back and forth through the wide room the player confronts it in. clever use of the platforms in the chamber is required to dodge its attacks.
stage 5 of rondo, main path.
the ghost ship. the player starts on the docks at A. flail skeletons patrol the platforms (below which is watery death). they are slow but have a great range of horizontal attack, and are positioned below the player, making them hard to attack. the player will either have to use a sub-weapon that strikes below (like the axe or bible), or to quickly jump onto the skeleton's platform, attack, and jump back off before it can counter. this is made trickier by the ghosts who are constantly appearing and floating toward the player.
at the end of the docks, a flat part, two very fast, blade-wielding skeletons leap out and attack from both sides. it's pretty hard to get through this part fully unscathed. after these are dealt with the player enters the ghost ship. at B there's a hidden piece of health-restoring meat, and the opportunity to find a secret path to the ship's engine, which can be destroyed for a 1-up. otherwise the player proceeds to a small room where she is surrounded by heavily armored knights, one on each side, who block the exits. they are slow and hold their positions, but their attacks have great range and must be jumped over. the player will want to quickly dispatch one, then go after the other.
if the player took the secret path, at C she'll find a sniper waiting for her. it has a very fast attack that reaches across the entire screen, but a fast player will be able to dispatch it before it attacks.
both paths meet again at D, a small room where the player is ambushed by three waiting skeleton archers who attack one at a time. these have a horizontal attack that is very hard (but possible) to deflect, and move to keep themselves out of the range of the player's whip, leaping over her when she backs them into a corner. the moment they land from their leaps is a good moment for a quick attack.
at E the player is attacked by a haunted portrait, a unique and dangerous foe who can kill the player in a single hit and moves very quickly. if the player hits it, though, it will be knocked back. good timing is crucial to keeping this enemy at bay until it is killed. once it's dispatched, the thorns on the door whither and the player can climb the stairs in the next room (guarded by a sniper) and proceed to the deck (F).
the deck is long and mostly flat. fleamen riding eagles will attack from above and are very hard to hit with the whip. however, if the player climbs the bowsprit she'll find an axe sub-weapon that will allow her a greater vertical range of attack. while contending with the eagle-riders, though, she'll have to get past a bunch of ball-and-chain-wielding knights who attack only periodically, but can through their ball tremendously far and do a great deal of damage. they take several hits to destroy and require an attack-and-evade strategy and good timing, while also avoiding eagle attacks.
when the player clears the deck she may climb the mast (G) and confront death.
i consider all this pretty tight level design.
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Last edited by dessgeega on Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| Shapermc wrote: |
| EDIT: Toups, you creep me out sometimes. |
man, wait till you see dess's post.
edit: dess, you creep me out sometimes.
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| Shapermc wrote: |
| If you ignore review scores you will see Castlevania sales have been dropping steadily, especially in Japan, for years now. |
eh. i don't know about some of the prior games, but por sold 149,798 in the december. dos sold 76,635 in its first month and sold 152,319 by the end of 2005. the total now stands at 210,009. por will surpass that in much less time.
it is also worth noting that por sold better than the other big konami title that month - mgs: portable ops, which was released on the same day. that sold 120,064 in december.
so, yeah, that's not really true, at least currently.
additionally, japan was never much of a force behind the sales of the series. for whatever reason, it never caught on over there. |
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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| I agree about Aria of Sorrow, but Dawn of Sorrow is nowhere as focused or as tight as that game, and is further bogged down by a bunch of half-baked ideas that don't really work out very well. |
It's not good enough for you to simply throw out "this sucks and is half baked!" when you're not going to support it with premises, 2ps. On a more general note, SotN is anything but tight - riddled with item exploits, sequence breaks, weird design tangents and such things. It is in my considered opinion all the better for it.
So cite some stuff. Please.
| toups wrote: |
| -enemy placement: it's not a matter of being predictable or not but rather how well thought it is. In the first castlevania it's rare to encounter enemies that don't in some way enrich the challenge of the game. |
Here I'm going to suggest that perhaps you have fallen into the same trap Sonic fanbois have - insisting that rigid, punishing and poorly controlled design somehow "enriches" the game. You have been bent to the whim of the game, not vica versa. With DoS, the opposite is true - it's a game one can master and allow as much power as one wants.
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| Even something as simple as putting a skeleton at the top of a stairway means you have to be careful about how you time your climb so that you can reach the top without taking damage and still have time to kill it. |
"Even something as simple as putting a massive fatal drop near this chain of badniks means you have to be careful about how you time your homing dash so you can reach the other side". Do you see?
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| All of the post-sorrow games lack this attention to detail -- instead you have endless hallways filled with skeletons that go down in one hit from your (laughably overpowered) weapon. |
Which - and forgive me if I'm wrong here - is the laughably overpowered weapon you earned and sacrificed Souls for. Nobody makes you give up Soma's pocket knife at any point during the game - you are using the overpowered weapon because you are choosing to use the overpowered weapon. Part of the fault here is your own choice, which you made freely.
You are also missing the more obvious - that those skeletons explode into awesome, gratifying showers of bone, and it makes you feel good to dash through them with a morph soul. Crash bam smash boom! It's not like someone would complain Contra gave them a woody now, is it? It's a new kind of game with new rewards - rewards your bleeb bloop NES mindset refuses to let you reap.
| Quote: |
| it's also worth noting that with the more limited control setups of the earlier games, having more mundane enemy placement was still more engaging. you might find the crows annoying but it's things like that which give castlevania its unique challenge -- figuring out the best way to deal with unusual enemies like that and then planning accordingly. |
It was a very boring, insipid level. Also:
"It's worth noting that with the twitchier control setup, having more mundane badnik placement is still more engaging. You might find the Egg Wizards annoying but it's things like this which give Sonic Heroes it's unique challenge -- figuring out the best way to deal with the engine glitches ad planning accordingly." Do you see?
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| I'm not at all opposed to the controls being loosened up but the level design and enemy placement has to evolve accordingly to keep the challenge up, and it really hasn't. 90% of portrait of ruin is just cutting through hordes of disposable, totally easy enemies and then getting stuck at an unfairly difficult boss fight. this is not the way a castlevania game should be. |
The context and definition of "a castlevania game" as you see it ended in 1994/5. Then, with that series being put to rest, something new borrowed it's name. That game was SotN, and it is full of easy enemies and unfairly hard bosses. You are judging apples by the standards of oranges and it is not useful, helpful or insightful when discussing the games. Play Astroboy.
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| -the boss designs in both dawn of sorrow and portrait of ruin (with very few exceptions) are almost universally abysmally bad. they are either pathetically easy or frustratingly cheap. boss design is not an area that the original castlevania excelled in but was something that was done far better in nearly every sequel (part III, IV, Bloodlines, Rondo, and even SotN are have some very tightly designed bosses). even if you choose to not level up or use potions the challenge is largely artificial and based more on your stats then your ability to learn patterns and dodge attacks; the boss fights never become particularly engaging. |
I'm fighting through boss rush with a knife, axe armour soul and the werewolf soul for extra dodge, allowing myself to beat previously cleared bosses so I might experience new ones - Dimitri and whatisisface are the only low points so far. Pupper Master was excellent, the fish was fun, the flying armour was neat, they're all fine bosses, man. ALL of them have patterns, strategies and safety points one can exploit. Fighting Puppet Master was a real thrill, with his puppet swap attack. Nice art, too.
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| -IGA's games are about as sandboxy as Final Fantasy -- which is to say, you have endless customization options but the end result is always just seeing a large damage number appear above your enemy's head. |
No. Did you miss the souls? The way a knife is different from a katana is different from a polearm is different from a spear is different from a handgun is different from a claymore? They affect timing, arc of attack, vector of attack - everything. You are seriously busting out the objectively false in this thread. My knife fighting required a way different approach to my claim solaris fighting. Can't speak for PoR but then it's guys like you that moan for a "back to basics" approach all the time.
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| even the different weapon types don't do much to vary your attack strategy -- it's usually just a matter of doing more damage at a slower rate or vice versa. |
Sometimes it's fun to fight a final amour with a pocket knife. Fun. Not about winning - about having fun.
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| Anyway, yeah, Dawn of Sorrow had a lot neat things but they weren't held together well at all. I barely remember half the game at this point and this is after multiple playthroughs. |
"I cannot remember sufficient information to back up my points. I do not have a warrant".
And shaper, dude - I was responding to toups, but if you're going to trot out fanbait like this, you cannot expect it to stay light hearted. I take none of this personally, and neither should you.
| ShaperMC wrote: |
| it still never captures the feel of a linear platforming game |
It's not a linear platform game. People do not play shmups expecting a flight sim. MAME games are too easy if you credit feed them - you do need to limit your credits to meter out a reasonable challenge. That is a totally valid thing to say, what the hell? |
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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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Offended by language gender bias in this post
| dessgeega wrote: |
| JamesE wrote: |
| Enemy placement in Castlevania has always been predictable as shit, always - I'm thinking of stage 2 (normal route) in Rondo, where there are a handfull of annoying crows, then some axe armours, then a castle full of the usual respawning zombies. |
the chief difference between the recent, igarashi-directed castlevanias and the earlier ones is mobility. dawn of sorrow, the last one i played, for example, allows the player to quickly move and jump all over the place, wielding any of a variety of weapons that hit in a variety of directions, and to take very many hits before death (far more when using cheaply-available on-demand health-up items).
it's hard to build compelling level design around this because the player is given so many options. how can you have an enemy that attacks from a hard-to-reach location when the player can just bring up the pause screen and choose a weapon that can hit that location? consequently, most of dawn's areas are long, flat rooms where enemies wait for the player.
in the earlier castlevania games, however (let's use rondo as our working example), the player moves at a slower pace and has a more limited jump. however, the player's primary weapon has a long range, but only horizontally. positioning the player character before attacks is crucial. and the player's limited vertical mobility means that situations where enemies are placed above the player - such as skeletons who toss bones downwards - have to be approached with care and strategy, and well-considered use of sub-weapons.
here, i've gone and taken a few maps off of vgmaps.com. i'm going to go through them room by room.
images are big and may not be 56k-friendly.
stage 3 of rondo, main path.
the player starts at A, a multi-level room patrolled by spear knights. these knights have a great range of attack, and are often situated slightly above or below the player. this can be a pretty difficult room for a beginning player; killing the knights involves waiting for an opening, leaping in to attack, and leaping out again before they counterattack. knights on the upper level will occasionally stab down at a player on the lower level; if the player is armed with the axe sub-weapon, though, and enough hearts, she can take out the upper knights before even reaching the upper plane. there's a hidden health-up meat at the end for a player who's had a rough time with the room.
up the stairs at B's chapel, the game starts making the player have to contend with larger numbers of enemies. skeletons attack as the player leaps a few small pits (which lead back down to A); they're fragile but quick and toss bones. as the floor flattens out they attack in greater numbers until the player finds a cross (at the crucifix), clearing the room and allowing her to proceed to C.
while climbing the stairs the player is attacked by fleamen, small enemies who hop around and are very hard to hit, especially on the slanted surface of the stairs. fortunately a bible sub-weapon can be found here, greatly enhancing the player's attack range (it flies outwards in a circle). at the top of the stairs the player is beset upon by flying medusa heads from the left and right. she has to dodge or destroy these while passing over small platforms which if jumped on (either because the player leapt over a head or was knocked back by one) will flip over and deposit her at F, an alternate path. a slow pace and good aim are required to pass this section.
after the player has escaped that gauntlet, she enters a wide, open space (D) where she is challenged by a single, unique foe. this is a larger, neanderthalic version of the skeletons encountered at B, who has a huge range and leaps around the wide space of the room. the player similiarly has to make good use of the open space to dodge its attacks and reciprocate. when the skeleton is killed, the church bell rings and the player is free to pass the door to the candle room (E).
in the candle room the player has to jump across a series of small platforms. many of those platforms are inhabited by the spear knights from A, who with their long range can strike a player on an adjacent platform. while the player is trying to dispatch these and clear the platforms for herself, ghosts are materializing and floating toward her, and can be very difficult to evade and attack because their vertical mobility is so much greater than the player's. if she's knocked off the platforms into one of the holes she'll land at F (though much further along than if she had fallen earlier).
if the player manages to cross all the platforms she'll reach G, where an elevator waits to take her to the alternate boss of the stage (and to the secret alternate stage 4). however, to activate it she'll have to dislodge a rock high overhead, requiring the use of a subweapon such as the bible she picked up at C. immediately before the elevator, though, a thief (similiar to the fleamen at C) attempts to reach the player and grab her sub-weapon.
if the player can't (or chooses not to) reach the secret boss, she'll proceed to the normal boss at H. if she's fallen to F, she'll need to battle up a series of staircases inhabited by skeletons (who perch above the player's normal range of attack and toss bones down at her) and a hall full of bone pillars (who have a longer horizontal range of attack then the player, but whose shots can be deflected with careful aiming). the boss at H is a minotaur who charges back and forth through the wide room the player confronts it in. clever use of the platforms in the chamber is required to dodge its attacks.
stage 5 of rondo, main path.
the ghost ship. the player starts on the docks at A. flail skeletons patrol the platforms (below which is watery death). they are slow but have a great range of horizontal attack, and are positioned below the player, making them hard to attack. the player will either have to use a sub-weapon that strikes below (like the axe or bible), or to quickly jump onto the skeleton's platform, attack, and jump back off before it can counter. this is made trickier by the ghosts who are constantly appearing and floating toward the player.
at the end of the docks, a flat part, two very fast, blade-wielding skeletons leap out and attack from both sides. it's pretty hard to get through this part fully unscathed. after these are dealt with the player enters the ghost ship. at B there's a hidden piece of health-restoring meat, and the opportunity to find a secret path to the ship's engine, which can be destroyed for a 1-up. otherwise the player proceeds to a small room where she is surrounded by heavily armored knights, one on each side, who block the exits. they are slow and hold their positions, but their attacks have great range and must be jumped over. the player will want to quickly dispatch one, then go after the other.
if the player took the secret path, at C she'll find a sniper waiting for her. it has a very fast attack that reaches across the entire screen, but a fast player will be able to dispatch it before it attacks.
both paths meet again at D, a small room where the player is ambushed by three waiting skeleton archers who attack one at a time. these have a horizontal attack that is very hard (but possible) to deflect, and move to keep themselves out of the range of the player's whip, leaping over her when she backs them into a corner. the moment they land from their leaps is a good moment for a quick attack.
at E the player is attacked by a haunted portrait, a unique and dangerous foe who can kill the player in a single hit and moves very quickly. if the player hits it, though, it will be knocked back. good timing is crucial to keeping this enemy at bay until it is killed. once it's dispatched, the thorns on the door whither and the player can climb the stairs in the next room (guarded by a sniper) and proceed to the deck (F).
the deck is long and mostly flat. fleamen riding eagles will attack from above and are very hard to hit with the whip. however, if the player climbs the bowsprit she'll find an axe sub-weapon that will allow her a greater vertical range of attack. while contending with the eagle-riders, though, she'll have to get past a bunch of ball-and-chain-wielding knights who attack only periodically, but can through their ball tremendously far and do a great deal of damage. they take several hits to destroy and require an attack-and-evade strategy and good timing, while also avoiding eagle attacks.
when the player clears the deck she may climb the mast (G) and confront death.
i consider all this pretty tight level design. |
This is all well and good, but none of this really resolves the real problem - Rondo is joyless, spartan and tedious. Even a shitty room in Dawn of Sorrow can be made fun via some kung-fu jumpkicks, slides and Soul usage... for all the masochists like to talk about old-school CV's "limited" movement, the games are tedious as fuck. Besides Bloodlines.
Oh god I mentioned masochism on SB why did I do that |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:44 pm |
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Okay, comparing old 2D castlevania's to new 3D sonic's is totally ridiculous. Though the controls may be clunky, they are both precise and reliable -- things which 3D Sonic games never are.
I never said that Dawn of Sorrow sucks, but it IS half-baked. Like I said, there are many good things about the game but there are many very bland things about it, too. It's not like I never played through the game using a weaker weapon or different equipment settings -- it's just that the novelty of doing those things wore off really quickly, too. The game lacks sufficient focus to make any of those choices have any depth to how entertaining they are. And because the enemies are so brain dead, even equipping a weaker weapon usually just means you have to hit it 6 times instead of 2 before it dies, repeating the same tedious dodges every time.
And yes, it IS great fun to speed through the castle leaving huge exploding skeletons in your wake, but it would be infinitely more satisfying if, at one point in the game, those skeletons posed an actual challenge to get past. It doesn't matter WHAT setup you have, really, the games are all pathetically easy, save for some of the boss fights. And the difficult boss fights are only difficult because the bosses have ridiculously high HP levels, not because their patterns are difficult to memorize or dodge.
Except for that grasshopper boss, which I enjoyed quite a lot! Despite being kind of cheap!
And yes, Symphony of the Night is a great game with great set pieces and level design and bosses and wonderfully loose gameplay mechanics. The looseness in and of itself is not the problem -- it's that in later entries there is considerably less attention to detail. I mean, seriously, play through Symphony of the Night's castle and compare it to Dawn of Sorrow's. There's a world of difference there. Dawn of Sorrow is the same hallways and sets of platforms repeated over and over and over again with a different background, with the same goddamned worthless skeletons flinging worthless bones at you.
Finally:
| Quote: |
| ALL of them have patterns, strategies and safety points one can exploit. |
These things are the bare minimum for what makes a boss fight at all. Their mere presence doesn't make it good. The patterns are either laughably predictable and easy to dodge or painfully random, and either way the strategy you must adopt is almost always really simple. there's nothing thrilling about the boss fights in DoS (save a few standout moments like the tower boss and the aforementioned grasshopper); for the most part you're just draining a huge HP tank and occasionally back dashing when he attacks.
Anyway if you ever play portrait of ruin you might see what I'm talking about more. I wasn't so anti-IGA till I played that game and it just bored the hell out of me, and it's caused me to further dislike everything that he's done since. I'm still stuck at the last boss but have no interest in finishing it now.
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:45 pm |
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i don't have a problem with the looseness of the enemy placement in the castleroids (metrovania whatever).
i am bothered that they often do not follow the standard that symphony set. within all of that game's looseness, there exists a rich, atmospheric intent. the frozen shades only appear in the coldest parts of the caves, mostly hovering over the icy pools of water. crows and ravens have their nests perches on the wooden structures on the sides of the towers in the chapel. ouja tables are nestled in the comfy corners of the marble gallery, where you'd imagine someone would go to read a book.
inversely, in dawn of sorrow, it feels like every other shaft had skelerangs hanging out on each alternating tier. certainly, there's some really neat stuff going on in specific portions - i always think back to that white dragon below the lost village that never gets tired of being jump-kicked - but it generally didn't have the same convincing effect of inhabitance and singularity that dawn had. i mean, there are dead pirates hanging out in the clock tower. huh?
one of the reasons why the enemy design isn't as tight is partially because many of the enemies from rondo of blood are still being used, which had the intention of combating a retro belmont - not the graceful, moon-jumping heroes of current times.
even so, considering my appreciation for the free-form design, i found por's enemy placement to be exceedingly dull and haphazard. basically nothing felt like it belonged in the respective areas, save for some parts of egypt. there are floating jellyfish around london!
Last edited by diplo on Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:47 pm |
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| diplo wrote: |
i don't have a problem with the looseness of the enemy placement in the castleroids (metrovania whatever) - excluding por.
i am bothered that they often do not follow the standard that symphony set. within all of that game's looseness, there exists a rich, atmospheric intent. the frozen shades only appear in the coldest parts of the caves, mostly hovering over the icy pools of water. crows and ravens have their nests perches on the wooden structures on the sides of the towers in the chapel. ouja tables are nestled in the comfy corners of the marble gallery, where you'd imagine someone would go to read a book.
inversely, in dawn of sorrow, it feels like every other shaft had skelerangs hanging out on each alternating tier. certainly, there's some really neat stuff going on in specific portions - i always think back to that white dragon below the lost village that never gets tired of being jump-kicked - but it generally didn't have the same convincing effect of inhabitance and singularity that dawn had. i mean, there are dead pirates hanging out in the clock tower. huh?
one of the reasons why the enemy design isn't as tight is partially because many of the enemies from rondo of blood are still being used, which had the intention of combating a retro belmont - not the graceful, moon-jumping heroes of current times.
even so, considering my appreciation for the free-form design, i found por's enemy placement to be exceedingly dull and haphazard. basically nothing felt like it belonged in the respective areas, save for some parts of egypt. there are floating jellyfish around london! |
this is a big part of my problem with the enemy placement, as well. the castle just doesn't have the sense of place that it does in SotN.
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Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| JamesE wrote: |
Here I'm going to suggest that perhaps you have fallen into the same trap Sonic fanbois have - insisting that rigid, punishing and poorly controlled design somehow "enriches" the game. You have been bent to the whim of the game, not vica versa.
~~~
And shaper, dude - I was responding to toups, but if you're going to trot out fanbait like this, you cannot expect it to stay light hearted. I take none of this personally, and neither should you.
| ShaperMC wrote: |
| it still never captures the feel of a linear platforming game |
It's not a linear platform game. People do not play shmups expecting a flight sim. MAME games are too easy if you credit feed them - you do need to limit your credits to meter out a reasonable challenge. That is a totally valid thing to say, what the hell? |
Yeah, as bolded above, that's kind of the point. We have bent to the whim, but that's kind of the point isn't it? I mean... hell, I don't know anymore.
The credit feeding thing: no matter how many times people who are fans of shmups tell people who buy Giga Wing (as one example) for the DC that it's a very good challenge if you just limit yourself in credits people just laugh it off. Games need to limit the credits themselves or people aren't going to do it.
That said, after Aria of Sorrow, in order to better balance the game for myself, I always wear items which keeps my luck at the highest. It makes it more challenging but I still find the pace and overall challenge unbalanced. Just because you make it harder on yourself doesn't mean the game will compensate for this.
About boss patterns in the new games: they aren't that good. I did a compairson of the headless lancer between Rondo and PoR.
And Rondo is the the best of the Action series Castlevania games. If you want to argue anything else your going to have to argue that the adventure games are better than the action games. By saying Rondo is over rated is like saying Castlevania is over rated... which isn't really too far off from the truth.
About sales numbers: Castlevania use to sell well in Japan too, it all started to slide off in the 16 bit times there. Sales number for anything more than 5 - 8 years old is really difficult to come by. I admit that those PoR numbers are higher than I expected, but the DoS numbers are pretty low.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:59 pm |
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James, it seems to me that you just prefer a faster paced game. Castlevania is sort of a thinking man's platformer. I've always saw it as a more strategic, almost meditative experience sometimes. Which doesn't make it any less thrilling.
I mean, no one here is arguing that castlevania is for everyone, but I think the general idea is that if IGA has a hardon for open-ended metroidalikes he should just create a new franchise and leave Castlevania to its old school roots.
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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:06 pm |
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No, Bloodlines is the best action Castlevania. I have graphs, I can prove it.
Rondo is a dull NES game with a prettier facade. |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:07 pm |
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selectbutton
I have graphs, I can prove it.
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Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:10 pm |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| James, it seems to me that you just prefer a faster paced game. Castlevania is sort of a thinking man's platformer. I've always saw it as a more strategic, almost meditative experience sometimes. Which doesn't make it any less thrilling. |
I liked Astroboy. I like Alien Soldier. I admire the need for precison - I just think your childhood tastes warped themselves around technologically limited gameplay and became denatured to think that it is good.
| Quote: |
| I mean, no one here is arguing that castlevania is for everyone, but I think the general idea is that if IGA has a hardon for open-ended metroidalikes he should just create a new franchise and leave Castlevania to its old school roots. |
Why? Why should he do that? So you won't be forced (by evil Konami demons) to buy his games then complain they aren't like completely different games? That is pretty... grasping. CV is a Komani trademark and they can use it how they want. |
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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:12 pm |
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| Shapermc wrote: |
| JamesE wrote: |
| No, Bloodlines is the best action Castlevania. I have graphs, I can prove it. |
John or Eric? |
Either/Or |
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Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:17 pm |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| Shapermc wrote: |
| JamesE wrote: |
| No, Bloodlines is the best action Castlevania. I have graphs, I can prove it. |
John or Eric? |
Either/Or |
Eric has the best conrolling spear in all of CV. I feel that he controls really well in the game. I don't much like using John in it. Bloodlines is right up there with Rondo, but due to the last couple levels of Bloodlines I have to give the better game nomination to Rondo.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:21 pm |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| James, it seems to me that you just prefer a faster paced game. Castlevania is sort of a thinking man's platformer. I've always saw it as a more strategic, almost meditative experience sometimes. Which doesn't make it any less thrilling. |
I liked Astroboy. I like Alien Soldier. I admire the need for precison - I just think your childhood tastes warped themselves around technologically limited gameplay and became denatured to think that it is good. |
It's not just about precision though -- it's a pacing thing. Astroboy is nowhere near as demanding as Castlevania is, in this regard.
I can't play Alien Soldier because it's too hard.
Also I never really liked Castlevania until a few years ago. I had parts 3 and 4 back in the day but they were way too hard for me. I loved part 2 a lot, though.
| JamesE wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I mean, no one here is arguing that castlevania is for everyone, but I think the general idea is that if IGA has a hardon for open-ended metroidalikes he should just create a new franchise and leave Castlevania to its old school roots. |
Why? Why should he do that? So you won't be forced (by evil Konami demons) to buy his games then complain they aren't like completely different games? That is pretty... grasping. CV is a Komani trademark and they can use it how they want. |
No, so that we can get new games in a style that we all really enjoy. No other franchise has ever had games like the original castlevania.
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showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| JamesE wrote: |
Oh, great. I was wondering when someone was going to turn this into Jocks vs Goths.
...
I'm pretty sure that Dawn of Sorrow stands up well for itself, HOLY FRANCHISE aside.
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Oh, and that boss who can stop time? Awesome!
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I cited shit, not just repeated some ludacrious conceit Aderack tossed out in an article a few years ago.
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Here I'm going to suggest that perhaps you have fallen into the same trap Sonic fanbois have - insisting that rigid, punishing and poorly controlled design somehow "enriches" the game. You have been bent to the whim of the game, not vica versa.
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Part of the fault here is your own choice, which you made freely.
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The context and definition of "a castlevania game" as you see it ended in 1994/5.
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I just think your childhood tastes warped themselves around technologically limited gameplay and became denatured to think that it is good.
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James, I am inspired by your ability to show, so artfully and conclusively, that anyone who disagrees with you about almost anything is simply suffering under an internal psychosis which they themselves are unaware of. You enter into the next level of debate by using your wondrous powers to access the depths of your opponent (or opponents) mind and soul. There you discover their shocking innermost secrets, which you expose as means to discredit their opinions. Magnificent.
All this time I thought the pedigree of Castlevania was going downward. Now I realize that the flaws, omissions or lacks of originality I have noted in the recent IGA games are only figments of my demented fan-boyish mind (and child-hood conditioning and / or trauma from being subjected to poor controls). Because of this I, and others suffering under similar delusions, have disrespectfully critiqued a mass commercial franchise that is above reproach. Damn my subconscious fan-boyish (and possibly goth-like>) nature!
I'm glad we have so many tireless cynics around here to defend videogame series from the fan boys who mercilessly hate them so. |
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Koji
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| Offended by language gender bias in this post |
It's as gender biased as calling an individual of unspecified gender a 'he' in every situation is, only reversed.
| JamesE wrote: |
| This is all well and good, but none of this really resolves the real problem - Rondo is joyless, spartan and tedious. Even a shitty room in Dawn of Sorrow can be made fun via some kung-fu jumpkicks, slides and Soul usage... for all the masochists like to talk about old-school CV's "limited" movement, the games are tedious as fuck. Besides Bloodlines. |
Wait... did you just respond a totally centered and objective post with some subjective whiny crap? Good grief.
The reason why level design sucks in the newer Castlevanias is because it's not fun to navigate it. You can cripple yourself and have a challenge, but it won't be fun like it is in previous Castlevanias, simply because enemies are just haphazardly put wherever in the plain rooms that they are found in. It, finally, just turns into having a rough time killing some enemy, move a little to the right/left and fight another of those enemies until you beat it, repeat, maybe find some other kind of enemy and defeat it, move to the right/left some more. It's like a beat'em up, you know? Only those have interesting enemies to kill. You're not constantly learning where it is optimal for you to stand, when to jump, when to attack, and creating a strategy in your mind: this is the fun that the classic design has to offer. Now I'm not saying that the Igavanias don't have a different kind of charm, but saying that crippling oneself is the same as having more fun is just not true. |
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Koji
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:49 pm |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| No, so that we can get new games in a style that we all really enjoy. No other franchise has ever had games like the original castlevania. |
Weeell... Allow me to dissent! I don't have a PSP, but if I did I'd totally buy UGnG. Just looking at that video I see some tasty level design, fun bosses, pretty graphics and interesting enemies. There's even a whip weapon! Guys, the original Castlevania ('86) was a clone of Ghosts 'n' Goblins ('85) in the first place, so give the original series some love too. |
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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:50 pm |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| No, so that we can get new games in a style that we all really enjoy. No other franchise has ever had games like the original castlevania. |
Not viable. Sales would laugh it out of the office. The usage of the brand name is the least of your worries, I think. If it did happen it would probably turn out like GBA Shinobi did. And man, there are plenty of games in a similar cut to the first Castlevania, they just never made you feel like your player was made out of lead. I have no problem with methodical pacing (I've been playing the shit out of Aurail lately, and that is paced as hell) (would Ranger-X also count?), it is the controls. The controls are poor and sludgy; the animation and movement do not mesh to create a "complete" feeling.
Hi Showka and Koji
| Quote: |
It's as gender biased as calling an individual of unspecified gender a 'he' in every situation is, only reversed. |
"They" is a perfect example of non-gendered language. I try and use it wherever I can remember to because I don't have a hard-on for one sex over the other (except in my boudior but such things are a dogg's own choice)
Also I'm not sure how pointing out that Richter has the arthritis really bad and his levels are dull is whiny |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:03 pm |
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| JamesE wrote: |
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| No, so that we can get new games in a style that we all really enjoy. No other franchise has ever had games like the original castlevania. |
Not viable. Sales would laugh it out of the office. The usage of the brand name is the least of your worries, I think. If it did happen it would probably turn out like GBA Shinobi did. And man, there are plenty of games in a similar cut to the first Castlevania, they just never made you feel like your player was made out of lead. I have no problem with methodical pacing (I've been playing the shit out of Aurail lately, and that is paced as hell) (would Ranger-X also count?), it is the controls. The controls are poor and sludgy; the animation and movement do not mesh to create a "complete" feeling. |
I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the controls. They are slow but they are precise and if you play deliberately then you are always in control of your character. And this really varies from game to game -- the very first one is the only game in which it's ever really a serious problem. Castlevania IV has really, really tight controls while still retaining the control limitations the series relies on.
Anyway I don't think a more traditional castlevania game would be any less commercially viable than the schlock he's putting out now. Either way at the very least I'd welcome a game with as much care put into it as SotN, which hasn't happened yet.
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Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:22 pm |
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| Koji wrote: |
| Weeell... Allow me to dissent! I don't have a PSP, but if I did I'd totally buy UGnG. Just looking at that video I see some tasty level design, fun bosses, pretty graphics and interesting enemies. There's even a whip weapon! Guys, the original Castlevania ('86) was a clone of Ghosts 'n' Goblins ('85) in the first place, so give the original series some love too. |
I actually just wrote an article about this for TGQ (by just I mean… like forever ago, but it’s still not out yet). This is a correct statement. It’s funny how well the game sticks to it’s roots and still conforms to more present day sensibilities (restart where you die, warps, save points) while still managing to feel like the game pretty much never went anywhere (I mean this in a good way). I also have a bit of history about Fujiwara and it gives good perspective to the series. I’m still wrestling with a bit of the organization part on the article, but right now it’s pretty much two articles that don’t meet in the center well. Yeah, I think I even said somewhere that UGnG with the whip is more like Castlevania than Castlevania has been since ’98 (barring remakes/re-releases).
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showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:29 pm |
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| diplo wrote: |
i don't have a problem with the looseness of the enemy placement in the castleroids (metrovania whatever).
i am bothered that they often do not follow the standard that symphony set. within all of that game's looseness, there exists a rich, atmospheric intent. the frozen shades only appear in the coldest parts of the caves, mostly hovering over the icy pools of water. crows and ravens have their nests perches on the wooden structures on the sides of the towers in the chapel. ouja tables are nestled in the comfy corners of the marble gallery, where you'd imagine someone would go to read a book.
inversely, in dawn of sorrow, it feels like every other shaft had skelerangs hanging out on each alternating tier. certainly, there's some really neat stuff going on in specific portions - i always think back to that white dragon below the lost village that never gets tired of being jump-kicked - but it generally didn't have the same convincing effect of inhabitance and singularity that dawn had. i mean, there are dead pirates hanging out in the clock tower. huh?
one of the reasons why the enemy design isn't as tight is partially because many of the enemies from rondo of blood are still being used, which had the intention of combating a retro belmont - not the graceful, moon-jumping heroes of current times.
even so, considering my appreciation for the free-form design, i found por's enemy placement to be exceedingly dull and haphazard. basically nothing felt like it belonged in the respective areas, save for some parts of egypt. there are floating jellyfish around london! |
This is a good point. And looking above, I'm glad someone mentioned how the boomerang throwing skeletons where all over Dawn of Sorrow despite only appearing in a handful of places in Symphony.
An annoying trend from the newer Igavania's has been how they'll take some wonderful enemy that appeared maybe three times in Symphony or some other game and then over-use it until you're sick of seeing it. This is either an extremely poor design issue or its happening because they don't have enough time and are padding the games.
A good example is the old man and his dog which appeared in the volcanic ruins in Dawn of Sorrow. At first it was really cool seeing the duo, and they even bothered to redraw him. But since its Dawn of Sorrow of course he has to appear in every other room of the stage he's in. Never mind that the entire appeal of the character isn't that he poises any real challenge or is fun to fight, its just the strange and out of place affection he shows for the dog. That fit perfectly in the barren hidden room from Castlevania IV, the only place he appeared in his debut game. But in Dawn they put him in about three enemy loaded corridors. And they didn't do a great job replicating him ; in Dawn of Sorrow he's drawn worse and has fewer frames of animation, so the animation of him crying over his dog just isn't as good as it was originally (the falcon knight from Symphony elicits more emotion).
This failed homage isn't a big flaw in the game, but its a good example of the many ways the recent Castlevania's just feel off somehow. I really think if the game was in development longer the old man and the dog would have been placed better and used sparingly, or they would've had their behavior redesigned so they were more intriguing as combatants. |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:35 pm |
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Dess, someone needed to do that. You should write an article analyzing the level structure and enemy placement of the early Castlevania games, and the psychology behind it. Compare it to contemporary level design, and then send it to Simon Carless for maybe publishing on GamaSutra. I think there'd be a lot of interest in it.
Premise: Castlevania is the R-Type of action-platformers. |
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dessgeega
damaged
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:55 pm |
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i've started and given up on that article a few times now. it uses the motif of the whip versus the [choose your own weapon here] to compare the two design philosophies.
maybe i'll finish it for the gamer's quarter nine.
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:44 am |
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does anyone here agree that the series has always oscillated between calculated structure and bland/terrifying mediocrity? when i think of castlevania, i think of the first game, scv4, bloodlines, sotn, and aos. maybe hod and cv2.
the rest kind of fall short, don't they? i mean, haunted castle is just a quarter-eating disaster, dracula x has no idea what be except tough, cv3 is too big for its own good, the n64 games are sluggish, hazy blobs, cod is a virtual treadmill, etc.
maybe this is one of those slumps. there was a 4 year one after sotn. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: Re: What is a fan? A miserable pile of secrets! |
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| Shapermc wrote: |
| Also, mainstream media gave Sonic the Hedgehog 9.5 out of 10 for the 360 (ret-conned into a 8.5). That doesn't make the score accurate. |
Checked Metacritic or Gamerankings lately? Not many game reviewers besides Halverson have been that kind to it.
| Dracko wrote: |
| http://www.castlevaniadraculascurse.com/ |
man that better turn out AWESOME
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:00 am |
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Chain-smoking, chain-cursing Trevor Belmont kicking skeletons in the balls?
One can only hope. |
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RecessRapist
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:20 am |
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Where do you guys GET those games seriously. D:
I swear to whatever entity that created this world that i have never seen a single castlevania game on a store shelf in my entire life. Sure I watched my cousin play the likes of SOTN and a few other retro titles when i was in the single digits, but the fucker would never let me play them. The only CV game I have ever played was the N64 one, which i had borrowed from a friend, and it wasn't a fun experience. At all.
And each time I asked people I know to recommend me a game 80% of the time it was "CASTLEVANIA CASTLEVANIA BLARGHBLARHHGHADASJHA"
So yeah. I want creepy game analysing powers too D': |
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lolipalooza
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Curitiba, Brazil
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:32 am |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
Castlevania IV has really, really tight controls while still retaining the control limitations the series relies on.
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Except you're able to extend the whip in 8 directions.
I still like to play CV III, IV, Bloodlines (with Eric) and Rondo of Blood. Those have considerably good controls and not-so-cruel enemy placement. As for the other, old-school Castlevanias, I just play one of the GnG games instead.
Also, who would be this SotN guy who was in the lead before Iga? |
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Mr. Pointy
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:38 am |
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| Quote: |
IGA: IT WAS NOT BY MY HAND THAT I HAVE ONCE AGAIN MADE THE SAME GAME! I WAS CALLED HERE BY NOSTALGIC FANBOYS WHO WISH TO PAY FOR RONDO SPRITES AGAIN!
SB: RONDO SPRITES? YOU REUSE ENTIRE CONCEPTS AND CALL IT A NEW GAME!
IGA: PERHAPS THE SAME COULD BE SAID OF ALL GAME DESIGNERS!
SB: YOUR REHASHES ARE AS EMPTY AS YOUR ATTEMPTS OF STORY CANON! CASTLEVANIA ILL NEEDS A PRODUCER SUCH AS YOU!
IGA: WHAT IS A CASTLEVANIA? A MULTITUDE OF REHASH AND HOMAGES TO 20 YEAR OLD GAMES IN CONDENSED FORM WITH THE SAME SPRITES AND GAMEPLAY WITH ONE OR TWO GIMMICKY HOOKS!
...but enough talk, BUY IT AGAIN! |
Sorry about the 4chan copypasta, but I haven't laughed so hard in such along time.
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