[glossolalia]

did someone mention sigurd hosenfeld

[CubaLibre]

[evnvnv]

after briefly browsing this article i was reminded of something i read the other day (i wish i could remember the exact quote...) saying that the real middle class objection to prostitution was not the degrading of sex by its association with money, but the degrading of money by its association with sex

so replace 'money' with 'video games' and you might be able to come up with a new twist on the argument going on in this thread (don't soil my sterile video game playing experience with the implication that someone else's video game might be tempting them to sin!!)

ok so there might be something 'funny' about taking any kind of kitsch object seriously enough to debate furiously, and perhaps simply discussing the merits of the best porno games is not the most insightful analysis, but hentai games and pornography in general make up such a large part of the current proliferation of interactive media, there's no reason why it shouldn't be discussed

ironically it seems like antitype, who is the most averse to talking about it, is the one who is making many of the most interesting comments. i don't think that its necessary to assume that everybody who plays/buys/fetishizes porno video games is some kind of horrible pervert caricature, but thinking about the kind of sex that is most prevalent in these games is kind of peculiar. but like antitype says, violence is the easiest way of expressing conflict--so is the fact that sex in most games is treated as a reward that is gained by and given to one person a reflection of some kind of psychological deformity on behalf of the player or is it the same as a violent videogame--if an inherent goal of video games is to present conflict and 'challenges' is violence always going to be a product of that?

if sex games weren't so focused on 'deviant' sex would people still be offended by them?

i dont know i think this thread is interesting, but it also seems like what really irks people is just the intimation that porn games and 'normal' games have a lot more in common than they're willing to admit. if it's as simple as that...

[chevluh]

[evnvnv]

[chevluh]

Regarding the moralistic reaction I suspect those who'd be prone to it mostly overlap with those who are against violence in games, and to them game distributed using mainstream channels are a much easier target. It's more efficient going after violent games (or even GTA and Mass Effect that have sex in them even though they're more than tame by eroge standards) because they're omnipresent.

It's less of a niche in japan, but I think it's still a niche. Though I have trouble understanding the otaku subculture there so I may be underestimating matters on that account. In fact, a bit of googling indicates the japanese diet had at least two petitions for bans this year, though it never resulted in anything (even the ban that was more specifically aimed at depictions of minor characters). Apparently it falls within their views on the freedom of speech.

[remote]

[dessgeega]

thread needs less self-righteous prudes telling the rest of us what are and aren't legitimate avenues for us to experience our sexuality
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[remote]

"the rest of us"

that's right, express your solidarity

let those self-righteous prudes have their real sex and human relationships!


by the way, i'm not telling you that your chosen avenue is not "legitimate", i'm telling you i think it's funny and sad. please take yourself a little bit more seriously. rraarrgh more indignant rage.

[chevluh]

Antitype, the root of my issue with what you've said isn't even that your assertion those games are amusing/pathetic, it's your assertion we shouldn't be allowed to discuss them as a result.

[remote]

I think this assertion that they should not be discussed at all was inferred, and not really what I meant.

[chevluh]

The fact that from early on you've been deriding the very subject and some of the posters, and posting such encouraging bits as

[remote]

True, true. I guess I chose to take a slightly more diplomatic approach after a bit.

The "keep it to yourself" line is slightly out of context when quoted that way, though. I was mainly directing that at specific examples of "yeah, I rubbed one out to that scene" in reference to an eroge where you fuck a beached mermaid or something.

However, I guess after changing my tone a bit throughout this thread I'm obligated to revise my statement. I don't think the genre should not be discussed at all, but I personally think it should be discussed with more of a sense of humor and perhaps a bit of self-deprecation. I mean, if I played hentai games I would not tell my real-life friends that I did (let alone try to talk about them seriously, as videogames or even as porn) unless I wanted to be a little bit humiliated. Maybe that's just me. And it is not because of any prudishness -- I simply prefer deal with sex in terms of other thinking, feeling human beings, not in terms of anime girls drawn and made to be everything you (or your inner rapist) might want them to be. I do think the glorification of such media is a bit shameful. But hey, I'm not here to tell anyone what they can't do...

[dessgeega]

[evnvnv]

[remote]

[remote]

[chevluh]

Regarding how we should approach the subject it's ultimately up to each poster to choose his own angle. We're not even really been glorifying it, merely discussing it normally. A security cushion of humor can be useful for some of us to have extra comfort about what they type but ultimately we're not comparable to real-life friends.

Acting behind the masks of netpeople, however thin they may be, allows us to take more straightforward approaches because ultimately we're here for what we discuss, not who we are. Many of the people I know in real life I won't even talk much about games with, let alone game mechanics, the occasional wiimote waggling at a friend's being their deepest experience with the subject (and let's not talk about explaining them how I find the oldschool design choices wonderful in a game where you can conquer japan while acting like a gleefully chaotic Don Juan, to put it mildly). That's why I can go online to more specialized forums, or for further niche subjets like this one topics, to be able to discuss it without dancing around the subject.

[remote]

Understood, and I really appreciate such a reasonable retort to everything I've said. I really have been a bit obnoxious.

Carry on, then! I'm off to get some beers and catch a movie with a friend anyway...

[Intentionally Wrong]

Sorry this thread broke down "that way", antitype. It's the voices of dissent that make these discussions worthwhile for me, and I didn't feel like yours ever struck the wrong tone.
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JSNLV is frequently and intentionally wrong.

[scratchmonkey]

I really don't think the thread broke down at all. Then again, this is the kind of stuff that I like to discuss.

(Especially since I don't actually like/play erogames.)

I guess I have another question for you antitype, if you don't mind: What's the difference, if there is one, between h-games and regular hentai that makes the games more morally questionable/pathetic?

[remote]

I guess it's just that I feel hentai games are a bit too enabling for anyone seeking some form of interaction (said simulation of "seduction" or "flirtation" or in worse case scenarios "rape") when there are better/healthier ways of seeking this (minus the rape of course), even if they may seem a bit scarier or more hopeless (i.e. talking to real girls and not necessarily with the sole intention of using them for sexual gratification).

Sort of like how I thought it was weird how, when I was still playing WoW, a guildie confided in me that WoW was curing her social anxiety. Prescribed medication: epics! I mean, I don't need to say much more than that. MMOs, actual healthy social interaction? Solely based on the acquisition of gear? You follow...

Anyway, I think it's the illusion of control and how this seems to be treated as an escape from or an alternative to real relationships and sexual encounters that creeps me out a little. Even online dating is not a valid comparison because you are still dealing with real people and there is some likelihood that the absolute guaranteed end result is not pure sexual fantasy. Rejection remains a possibility!

@Intentionally Wrong, I will fully admit that my initial posts here came off as way too aggressive, but like I said I wasn't expecting them to cause such an uproar. I want to reiterate that I'm not here to express self-righteous moral outrage and tell anyone what they can or can't do. Just saying what I think. To put it as plainly as I can: I think that a simulation of flirtation/seduction and ultimately sex is rather boring and a bit odd compared to the real thing. But then, I've never been into serious roleplay, either, so maybe this is just me.

[idle]

[remote]

[chevluh]

Actually I think the guitar hero mention is fair. It's important to keep in mind it's obvious the games are a hardly comparable to the real thing. That's a big part of what makes them games, and the guitar hero mention is relevant in that not being (or not even trying to be, because there is no real thing in this world a videogame could actually reproduce, barring other videogames) like the real thing doesn't prevent them from being enjoyable in their own right, in fact it can contribute a lot to said enjoyment.

Pong's success came from the fact that, while immediately identifiable as a parallel to table tennis, it was very much its own thing, with its own possibility space. The same is true for all game genres, including eroge.

[remote]

I now feel I have served my purpose in this thread and I am more interested in seeing what else you might have to say than putting forth my own perceptions any further -- perceptions which remain generally the same, though I really do appreciate some of the points you guys are making.

[DonMarco]

What arguement against erotic games couldn't be applied to other media? Why jerk off to Playboy instead of going out and finding a real woman? Why watch a porno instead of calling that one girl back and maybe getting lucky?

Bottom line?? It's a fucking easy as hell alternative. Masturbation is cheaper, safer and more readily available alternative when the mood hits. Be it using your imagination, a novel, magazine, movie, TV, computer, or "other". By "other" I mean a real-live person.

Video games are so ingrained as non-erotic in the States it's a fucking crime. Same with cartoons. So you know anything that combined eroticism, video games and cartoons will be beyond taboo. Hell, anyone that actively searches for, plays, or even talks about erotic games is branded a loser even furries won't associate with. Even in the states, they're more likely to say "eroge" or "hentai games" to avoid saying what they are.

Also! There are plenty of erotic games that target women. They are either explicitly reverse-roll dating sims or those more romantic games that value story over gameplay.

...

Final thoughts? I'm looking forward to UltraPorn, myself.
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Still alive.

[CubaLibre]

[Chris B]

[chevluh]

[CubaLibre]

[mothman spirit]

insomnia responds!

[CubaLibre]

Dude why would you even link that
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Let's Play, starring me.

[remote]

oh hi insomnia.

By the way, Cuba, I understand your argument about gameplay leading narrative, but I can come up with examples to counter that: Skies of Arcadia was a game whose painfully slow battles I slogged through only to see more of the game and its world and story. Mother 3's battle system is not so compelling to me, and yet I play the game. It's all "means to an end" gameplay. Yes, a game like HL2 seems to draw more attention to its combat because you enjoy it so much, but can you/do you really ignore what's going on around you? It's a narrative drive far more elaborate than "get to the the final boss". That the combat happens to be enjoyable is of equally important consideration, but in my opinion a game is better when its gameplay does not feel like something tacked on to move you through the world (hi jRPGS, hi retarded Zelda puzzles, hi "games that play yourselves" (need a better term for that)) but instead something that functions as a more naturally involving element, and HL2 succeeds in that regard. So again, quoting myself:

[Talbain]

http://www.alafista.com/2008/05/17/figure-auctioned-for-15-million-usd/

Anyone else see this? Kinda nutty (NSFW obviously).

Re-iterating that linking to Pikachu is just what he wants you to do and that eroge games do not have to be about great gameplay (or whatever term you prefer Cuba). In fact it's surprising that many interesting stories spawn from the h-game genre, for whatever reason - each story in Fate/Stay Night is roughly a novel in length for example. Actually perhaps it's not surprising, in the same way that corny romance scenes in romance novels are not surprising.
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[remote]

[glossolalia]

in a way he's right though, i'd rather gawk at "real" crazy hentai than murakami's watered-down version

[nakysnaky]

Is anyone else planning on replying to every comment antitype makes about any video game ever with "yeah, I rubbed one out to that scene"?

[remote]

oh what have i done

[bloody heartland]

[bloody heartland]

I tried to tell the man in the shop I was buying DOA: Xtreme Beach Volleyball as a legitimate avenue to express my sexuality but he kept laughing at me anyway what did I do wrong dess