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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:27 pm |
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Dividead, Season of Sakura and I guess Tsukihime. I've played others, but eh, most of them are just dreck, a thinly veiled excuse to promote the already mentioned sexual fantasies. Fate/stay night would probably end up here somewhere but it ultimately stops trying to be a love story and becomes some sort of "my stats are better than your stats" type bullshit halfway through. Still, the characters have personality, so I can fault it for that at least. I kind of want to see what Quartett is, just because I like Oyari Ashito's artwork, but I'm not even sure it's an h-game. I suppose I'd have more to say about this genre but the genre itself is either so thin that it's basically just outright pornography or so thick that you wonder why it was hentai in the first place. Dividead is the only h-game I've played that I've actually felt straddled both genres well, even if it was really strange (though that was the goal, so it succeeded as a game in that aspect).
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:14 am |
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| antitype wrote: |
Ok, so she made an interesting point about how the potentiality contained in these scenarios is what's really interesting (right?), but elsewhere in the thread you have people saying, "Yeah, I actually jerked off to that scene." Um, ok?
I didn't actually say that total ridicule is the only acceptable response here, but I mean, come on. Hentai games. People saying they play them, and I'm pretty sure that most of the time it's not really because they find that POTENTIALITY oh so thrilling, or because they want to be able to hold a legitimate, thoughtful discussion about these games on selectbutton forums. It's because they can't get laid and they need weird fantasy scenarios to help them bust one. Involving mermaids and mentally disabled girls or whatever.
Am I wrong? |
You're not wrong, but you really aren't totally right either. I started playing them for the aforementioned reasons, but I think I kept playing them because some of them have some fairly interesting or intimate questions about sexuality. For example:
Is love a form of pain or submission?
Can love be real without sex?
Is sexuality morbid just because it's sexuality?
I found myself asking these questions when I played Dividead. And I think the answer espoused by Dividead is different from what most people might expect or experience normally and that experience, even if fantasized, is certainly an important image to be aware of, particularly when one attempts to understand those forms of sexuality taking place in everyday life (such as a husband and wife fighting, the idea of "taking a break" from sexuality or why fantasies are acceptable and some experiment with them).
More than that, there are quite a few that have no questions about sexuality at all and of those a few can be interesting because they're not taking a vital question in the game into account.
Also, there's the question that's still ongoing about whether or not a visual novel can really be considered a game, especially since visual novels are so predominant in the genre. Most of the h-games that I found engrossing were of this genre, but again I'm still unsure as to whether I could call them games--as I've said, they function more like their description (visual novels--and by further extension, a choose your own fantasy novel).
As for h-games that function as what I would define as a game (such as the dungeon crawler h-games, etc.), you're right in that I agree that there's nothing substantive there, because the games themselves tend to be mini-games that function as a means to show perverse pictures. Lightning Warrior Raidy is really an exemplar of this. Or any of the Mahjong h-games, or the Qix "reveal the porn" h-games. And so forth.
| Loki Laufeyson wrote: |
| desire and lust should not be celebrated. |
But they do need to be discussed and denying them won't make either go away.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:21 am |
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| Loki Laufeyson wrote: |
| the gal pani x doujin game is actually really good, taking qix, and adding bullet hell patterns. |
And what I'm saying is that removing the porn from this game would not stop it from being a good game.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:25 am |
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| antitype wrote: |
| Dark Age Iron Savior wrote: |
| I'm a little lost here. Do you think porn games are weird and pathetic because the are pornography, or because they are very rarely more than pornography? |
No, and no. I have no problem with pornography at all (although whether I find any given pornography appealing is a matter of personal taste). I guess I see hentai games as different from pornography (depending on what sort of porn you're talking about) in that they entertain certain fantasies that I would say are really bizarre and maybe unhealthy for twenty-somethings, otherwise sexually active or not. Or maybe I just want to point out how goofy the whole concept tends to be. I dunno.
I'm not trying to make this huge deal out of it. If it's a curiosity or very rare indulgence for someone, I mean, whatever. But if you're some kind of eroge connoisseur you might have a slight problem. Just saying. I'm gonna shut up now, though. |
I'd be really curious to know what you mean, since I don't see h-games as being terribly different from any other type of pornography. What do you mean by bizarre or unhealthy? Or rather, why specifically just h-games? It seems like you're excluding it from other pornography in some way but aren't really articulating why you're excluding it. The types of pornography it presents are certainly no more strange than any of the other stuff that's floating around the internet.
I might even say it's better than most of that other stuff, since most visual novels tend to at least promote the idea of a loving relationship, regardless of how that love's expressed sexually.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:08 am |
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I don't really equate porno and well done. I think pornography is something, by very definition, rough. As for the shoddy videogame comment, I can only say to read my above posts about visual novels. If by terrible you mean either copying popular contemporary styles or moving far off the beaten path into strange what the fuck is that land, then I agree.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:11 am |
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I wonder why you demonize a genre and then claim the majority of games as being bad. Have you seen the non-porn games industry? I mean, I find the "My Pretty Pony" and "Horse Training" games as being "creepy shit" but I don't demonize videogames because of it.
You have to look for quality no matter where you're going, why you expect some higher standard of pornography of all things is rather outrageous.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:00 am |
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| Rya.Reisender wrote: |
Although it's kinda of weird to like the virtual girls of visual novels more than the real girls, it really makes sense. I mean those virtual girls have personalities especially designed to be enjoyable by males. They are what males really want and can't get in real life to begin with. I mean I guess it's wrong to say "real life girls all have a sucky personality", because I guess there are probably exceptions. They are just harder to find. It's easier to buy a hentai / visual novel / dating sim / whatever and directly find a virtual girl that totally fascinated you and has a lovable personality than going out talking with 500+ girls just to find a single girl that behaves as uncommon as you seek.
Though I guess the real problem is that the virtual girls can't became reality so you're kinda stuck with something similar to a pure internet relationship. I guess you could also argue that real girls have 'unlimited new content' while virtual girls are limited where at some point you know all their possible sentences. But then again, there are not many pure internet relationships that last longer than 3 months. |
This explanation is creepy.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:40 am |
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| chevluh wrote: |
| Talbain wrote: |
| And what I'm saying is that removing the porn from this game would not stop it from being a good game. |
Yes, but it's notable having it in there doesn't make it a bad game either, unless we're talking about the EW FAKE SEX crowd. |
I didn't mean to imply that having it in there would make it a bad game.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:44 pm |
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| antitype wrote: |
Let's imagine for a moment that it's the year 2102 and this is a thread where we discuss the subject of dating and then "making love" to our new robot girl companions. Perhaps we are robot enthusiasts, and the thread is supposed to be about how well-made these robots actually are, and what unrecognized genius is behind them, yet by our very discussion we're admitting that we own fuckbots ourselves and do in fact use and enjoy them.
Would that not be a little bit funny, sad, or even disgusting?
I mean I guess you could argue that these fuckbots would be nothing more than really advanced sex toys, but I sort of doubt that many women have stimulating romantic conversations with their vibrators before getting off with them. Wouldn't it be slightly odd if they did?
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I'm going to put this aside since I don't think the analogy is really fair or related, though I'd still say that it's probably none of these things and it's still a natural act (insofar as masturbation is a natural act). At the same time though, you're also having sex with an object, which is different in some regard to looking at pictures and masturbating, which is ultimately what you're doing with all forms of current pornography.
| Quote: |
So yeah, Intentionally Wrong, I'd agree that masturbation is a perfectly natural and even necessary thing! What I'm poking fun at here is the use of a videogame as a means to this end, considering how bizarre they can be and how some of their fans seem to get so wrapped up in how wonderful these pixelated female companions are...
I'll admit the discussion of their actual game mechanics certainly brings up some interesting points (like the potentiality of flirtation thing), but I still see the whole concept of "masturbation games" as being, depending on the precise nature of the content, kind of sleazy, funny, or just fucking sick. |
Why would you say a videogame to this end is any different? Every medium available thus far has been used for pornographic content, why are videogames excluded? There's nothing particularly unique about videogames excepting the fact that there's an element of interaction and I've already made this argument several times--I only really seem to hit roadblocks when I say that interaction makes the medium uniquely different, particularly the videogame's kind of interaction.
Have you seen how porn fans get wrapped up in their porn? Have you seen the lines of fans who wait for Pamela Anderson so they can ogle her? It's not like videogames are special in this regard, a fan of anything gets caught up in it! That's why they're called fans!
So if you're having sex and a female does a striptease or if you go to a strip bar are these women also sleazy, funny or just fucking sick? Because that argument doesn't really seem to follow at all. Why are masturbation games in the form presented so terrible? You keep saying "they're terrible," but the reasoning is just that they're terrible because they are. The only way I can see that being justified is if you feel all forms of pornography are terrible, because pornography has never just been about consensual sex between two partners. Rape didn't magically happen nor did it become worse or better when it was placed in videogames.
I'm not going to say porn isn't creepy. It is creepy--but one form of porn is not more creepy than the other forms. I also think that porn is something embarrassing because there's a definite, willful action to try and hide it from others in most cases. Porn is in a definite sector that is outside "normal" society, but that doesn't mean it's not a required part of a normal society.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:22 am |
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| antitype wrote: |
Ohhhh godddd Talbain I'm beginning to find this whole thing really tiresome.
Go read that Tim Rogers review of Portable Island that DAIS linked to above. I feel it reinforces what I'm trying to say here. |
I'm finding it tiresome too, heh. But then I've had a rather shit day so I've felt like being contrary. I'll read that review though, thanks for the recommendation.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:38 pm |
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| antitype wrote: |
| God, I can't believe hardly anyone else finds this even a tiny bit hilarious. |
The reason is because adults can take erotic forms seriously, even if they find them objectionable in some way.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:02 am |
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http://www.alafista.com/2008/05/17/figure-auctioned-for-15-million-usd/
Anyone else see this? Kinda nutty (NSFW obviously).
Re-iterating that linking to Pikachu is just what he wants you to do and that eroge games do not have to be about great gameplay (or whatever term you prefer Cuba). In fact it's surprising that many interesting stories spawn from the h-game genre, for whatever reason - each story in Fate/Stay Night is roughly a novel in length for example. Actually perhaps it's not surprising, in the same way that corny romance scenes in romance novels are not surprising.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:00 am |
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| bloody heartland wrote: |
| I think this is why I really like Suda51's two most recent: Killer 7 and No More Heroes have scenes and elements with strong or fetishised sexual elements, but the game doesn't linger over then to brag about how transgressive it is, it just moves forward using the motifs where it needs to. No More Heroes could have been pure boring sex comedy in lesser hands, but the plot has a lot of other things going on (metacomentary, possible critque of otaku consumerism, possible affection for otaku consuerism, etc). It never feels like Suda is groping himself under the table, but it doesn't feel sexless. |
The two statues I linked earlier could be these things as well.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:04 am |
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| antitype wrote: |
| Cuba, this thread has been going in circles for quite a while. |
Perhaps the same could be said of all religions!
...
Sorry.
Anyway. I'd say that going in circles is basically where any argument ends, since logic always ends up being circular to a person's attitudes/beliefs.
Psychologically deformed? I'm pretty sure you could apply such an argument to anything antitype. But if we're going to make such an argument, I'd argue that we're all psychologically deformed. Which is a reasonable argument, but I don't think that eroge is the cause nor an initiating factor of that.
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