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internisus shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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adol

Joined: 14 Jun 2007
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:20 am |
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The gist of the article is that everybody tastes are getting more and more refined, digital distribution/alternative avenues makes it easier for everyone to play the latest 'indie darling', things are going to get only more interesting from here on out in that people who play video games will know more of what to expect from games and critics will be more useful.
So you can read it if you want but that just about covers it! |
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kzkb1
Joined: 29 Apr 2007 Location: a city where you don't come to find love, you come to find the truth
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:34 am |
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| This is a pretty great time to be playing videogames, yeah. Or as an interesting man once said, "videogames will be the art of the truly egalitarian age." (ignore all semantic debates on art and focus on the larger picture, guys!!) |
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Sushi K
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:35 pm |
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It dovetails with ABDN's review of Cave Story alright. _________________
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parkbench

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:47 pm |
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Can I read that review or will it spoil it for someone who hasn't played it? _________________ metafilter vs. youtube comments |
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Tokyo Rude

Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Location: I'm on the phone Derrick!
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:10 pm |
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| parkbench wrote: |
| Can I read that review or will it spoil it for someone who hasn't played it? |
what?
I mean what? |
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parkbench

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:45 pm |
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I mean will it spoil Cave Story for me like the Dragon Quest V review did? I don't think Cave Story has some mindblowing plot twists, but if there's some 'moment' or 'area' of the game that's all about the suspense and reveal then I don't want to ruin that, eh? _________________ metafilter vs. youtube comments |
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BotageL pretty anime princess

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: *fidget*
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:48 pm |
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Sir, if you're admitting to having not played Cave Story at this point, we're going to have to revoke your Selectbutton.net membership.
I mean, the game will run on damn near everything, and it's been out for years. What's your excuse? _________________
http://www.mdgeist.com/ |
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parkbench

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:10 pm |
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Real life?
I also haven't played Silent Hill 2, Rez, Killer 7, or God Hand (to be correct I have played all these games but not for any significant amount of time).
It's certainly about time. I'll be on vacation soon.
ps: this abdn review is good, but i wish he'd done the 'japanese corporate sociology' bit after the 'pixel's favorite games' bit. i actually like the gimmick of analysing his possible favorite games as a way to analyse the game itself, it just should've come first. the 4th wall metacommentary ("we're really going to talk about cave story now!") isn't nearly as endearing as you might think. come on tim, hook and lead, hook and lead!
ps #2: also tim it's fine referring to other reviews but sometimes you copy sentences rote from a past article and it just seems lazy you know even if you slightly paraphrase it. it's easy to fall in love with sentences but there's got to be a better way to do it than to just repeat the same joke twice. save it for one article instead of normalising it and cheapening it across several (ie towel on head section). _________________ metafilter vs. youtube comments
Last edited by parkbench on Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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glossolalia
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:19 pm |
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| parkbench wrote: |
| I don't think Cave Story has some mindblowing plot twists |
depends on how you play it! which he doesn't talk about at all in the review, so nah, you didn't spoil anything.
i just played cave story for the first (and second) time about a month ago and i assure you it is in no way overrated whatsoever. anything else you might be playing is a waste of time in comparison. just make sure you play it with some kind of actual controller. if your computer has bluetooth the wiimote tilted nes-style is perfect. |
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parkbench

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:30 pm |
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That was going to be my next question. Joypad or no joypad? I guess the answer is the former.
Don't worry, this is the same way I finally got around to playing Within a Deep Forest/Knytt/Knytt Stories. _________________ metafilter vs. youtube comments |
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CubaLibre the road lawyer

Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Location: Balmer
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:33 pm |
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Yeah, I tried the game and didn't have much fun with it. Then six months later I plugged in my PS3 pad and suddenly Cave Story was one of the greatest games I'd ever played. _________________ Let's Play, starring me. |
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shnozlak

Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Location: pushing crates in the sewer level
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:42 pm |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| Yeah, I tried the game and didn't have much fun with it. Then six months later I plugged in my PS3 pad and suddenly Cave Story was one of the greatest games I'd ever played. |
Hmm! I play(ed) it on my arcade stick and had a blast. Ill have to try a joypad. Anyone here try to beat it without the machine gun? _________________ Mixtapes galore ~ VG MUSIC
ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ http://phantom-photon.tumblr.com/ |
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Pijaibros

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Casino Night Zone
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:18 pm |
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PSP is the proper way to play this _________________
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Cossix submersible administrator

Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Location: San Jose
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:41 pm |
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| Pijaibros wrote: |
| PSP is the proper way to play this |
This cannot be emphasized enough. The PSP port of the game is the vastly superior port. |
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Brooks

Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Location: peak caucasity
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:43 pm |
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It certainly doesn't suck, that way. Has been filling my commute hours respectably, the past week and a bit.
The game itself lacks... something to make me go completely apeshit elated for it (suspecting this is down to the cosmetics), but it does what it does with utter competence. |
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Sushi K
Joined: 08 Dec 2007
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:59 pm |
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As an addition to the elitist game reviews; he makes the point that a small time game has a better chance to make an impact then a small time game because of availability to reviewers.
Another point is people are willing to spend $10 and two hours on a possibly bad move but not $50 and 30 hours on a bad game, but now people aren't afraid of making small games and selling them for a few dollars. _________________
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CubaLibre the road lawyer

Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Location: Balmer
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:30 pm |
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| shnozlak wrote: |
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| Yeah, I tried the game and didn't have much fun with it. Then six months later I plugged in my PS3 pad and suddenly Cave Story was one of the greatest games I'd ever played. |
Hmm! I play(ed) it on my arcade stick and had a blast. Ill have to try a joypad. Anyone here try to beat it without the machine gun? |
I did, kept the Polar Star to get the Nemesis (I think that's what it's called, whatever, the supergun) on my second playthough. I'm sitting at the maw of hell now, waiting to go in. _________________ Let's Play, starring me. |
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Koji

Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:37 pm |
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I haven't played Cave Story yet either, and honestly I'm not dying to play it. I will play it eventually, though, but it sounds more like an incredibly polished (and nostalgia-fueled) game rather than a very innovative one, so it never caught my attention that much. _________________ The Ants Parade. |
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xmrblondex

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:45 pm |
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| glossolalia wrote: |
just make sure you play it with some kind of actual controller. if your computer has bluetooth the wiimote tilted nes-style is perfect. |
I've been playing it on my mac and struggling, because i'm using a keyboard, i'll just download some wii drivers. Genius! |
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Harveyjames

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:46 am |
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I play it with the keyboard just fine; in fact, since I'm left-handed, I can bash the fire button quicker on the keyboard than I can on the control pad!
Parkbench, Cave Story is actually quite well plotted! There is a lot to spoil! _________________
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BIGJ420COOLDUDE

Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:17 am |
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| i think the dark knight is a bad example for the article mb??? |
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BIGJ420COOLDUDE

Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:18 am |
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| im playing god hand right now and it fuckin owns. i used to hate the cutscenes but now i have a better sense of humor and am getting more awkward-delivery jokes |
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Max Cola

Joined: 15 Dec 2006 Location: a shotgun shack
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:22 am |
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| Koji wrote: |
| it sounds more like an incredibly polished (and nostalgia-fueled) game |
It is exactly that, and it does everything it sets out to do superbly. I guarantee you will enjoy it.
The article was pretty nice actually, nicer than the title implied. I like the idea that game critics will actually talk about good and interesting games moreso than shiny ones!
(also, I like Eurogamer and had forgotten about it for a while) _________________
Everybody hurts sometimes |
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bloody heartland banned
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:35 am |
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| Urgh, this is cuntishly written. |
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Max Cola

Joined: 15 Dec 2006 Location: a shotgun shack
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:41 am |
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Not sure what you mean by that... _________________
Everybody hurts sometimes |
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Lurky banned
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:48 am |
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| BIGJ420COOLDUDE wrote: |
| i think the dark knight is a bad example for the article mb??? |
How? Isn't the point that the gaming press IGN and the gang, score the blockbusters the highest.
Dark Knight is a big budget film that the public wants to love, the gaming equilvalent would be something like Halo 3. pick a random system on IGN sort by review score for 9's, and with an odd-ball or two you get a list of the gaming blockbusters. |
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bloody heartland banned
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:05 am |
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| Quote: |
| In other words, the weirder and more abstruse the critics become, the more chance they’ll be of use to you, the gamer who’s looking for something a little new. If they’re not afraid to say they prefer Trial 2 or Braid over GTA4, the chance of them doing their real job – that is, leading to you to nifty stuff – is increased hugely. |
It's largely debatable whether or not Braid is doing something more "new" than GTA4, which pushes boundaries in it's own right. At it's heart is not really "new", just well constructed.
I resent this idea that something needs "indie" (god that's such a fucking awful word to append to something) cred to be "worthwhile", which is what this dipstick seems to be buying into. |
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bloody heartland banned
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:07 am |
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| Ah. it's Kieron Gillen. That explains everything! |
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Shapermc crawling in his skin

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Chicago via St. Louis
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:21 am |
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Are you saying there's something wrong with liking Dark Knight? It's honestly rare that a huge blockbuster actually gets things that right. I agree that it may be a (drunkenly picked) poor analogy, because with the way that film is now (read: it's had a long and well documented history well beyond that of games, and far more socially embedded) I think it is important to point out when a blockbuster actually does something worth looking at. Especially since many of the people who read critics (especially film critics) and they see a blockbuster on the end of the year list they sometimes think "perhaps that wasn't just a douche-y movie made by Hollywood, maybe I'll give it a watch". I know that's happen to me many times because I avoid many blockbusters. Thank god I saw speed racer against my better judgment, it turned out fantastic.
We're just comparing such completely different levels of criticism that the analogy doesn't work. _________________
The bad sleep well at The Gamer's Quarter |
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Dracko a sapphist fool

Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: Re: Steps Towards An Elitist Critic Future |
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No.
You saw the title, right? _________________
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parkbench

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:39 am |
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| Quote: |
| I resent this idea that something needs "indie" (god that's such a fucking awful word to append to something) cred to be "worthwhile", which is what this dipstick seems to be buying into. |
I think this is slightly missing the point. The point is that integrity, honesty, and innovative gameplay are inversely proportional to the size of the company working on the game/the size of the franchise/the amount of money involved.
This is not to say that a big company can't make a good game or that one guy can't make a bad one--I think these exceptions are implicitly understood. But the first thing you learn about entertainment and/or art (I hath appeased both camps) is that the moment the numbers game--sales--matters more than the game itself, things begin to get hairy. I really don't think you have to say anything you can't already feel when you sit down to play Megaman Battlenetwork 27 and you know that they shat this one out without even batting an eye.
I mean think about it honestly: when the order from on high is to "make a racing game" or "we want at least three platformers out the door by this quarter," isn't the process shaky from the start? Games made to fulfill fiscal quotas will inevitably have something lacking because their primary status is that of a commodity and the mindset is that of marketing: "what can we do to appease the most amount of people?" (from abdn: "do they literally need someone to tell them, 'Sports fans like sports games?'")
Say what you want: the most gratifying art or entertainment has always been the kind that says "screw appeasing people, let's try something different" (and there's always, always something different). This is what the crux of the whole ABDN manifesto thing is saying. Tim, in his long-windedness, has repeatedly stressed the point that "people making games that they'd want to play is not the worst thing that could happen."
Of course it is a balancing act--of course every company and every team of designers strives for integrity and quality in a sea of buffoonery and stats, and of course every game is not either a stunning avant-garde piece of individual genius or a schlocky and totally dull work of shills. In fact, some of "the greatest games" are only possible because the people behind them first slogged through the thankless period of making games they didn't want to make.
But it comes down to: what do you prefer? Even if you recognise these things, even if thinking about it long and hard makes you marvel at the "sir, duality of man, sir," at the end of the day you're probably going to lean--and ultimately, I would choose an independently-made game over a mainstream game, any day. I have that power as a consumer to choose exactly that. What it means is that my choices will involve more risk (my investment is much less reliably worthwhile), my experiences will be much less conventional (and therefore much less conclusively satisfying, like fragging someone in a multiplayer match), and I will usually not be dealing with refined formulas/techniques (as independent works, unless successful, tend to be one-offs). But because I value the ultimate reward, I'm willing to sacrifice those things for what I would claim are more interesting experiences.
The point is that, like it or not, games are finally getting used to the idea of 'autership.' The most corporate and the most commodified form of entertainment yet (by its nature--a book can be written on a napkin but who manufactures a game console?) is finally growing out of its own skin and starting to resemble other mediums, against all odds. I think this is a good thing because it means more honest games will be made.
And honestly: who doesn't like honesty? _________________ metafilter vs. youtube comments |
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BIGJ420COOLDUDE

Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:34 am |
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| Lurky wrote: |
| BIGJ420COOLDUDE wrote: |
| i think the dark knight is a bad example for the article mb??? |
How? Isn't the point that the gaming press IGN and the gang, score the blockbusters the highest.
Dark Knight is a big budget film that the public wants to love, the gaming equilvalent would be something like Halo 3. pick a random system on IGN sort by review score for 9's, and with an odd-ball or two you get a list of the gaming blockbusters. |
batman is way better in a "critical/elitist" sense than halo 3 |
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BIGJ420COOLDUDE

Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:35 am |
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| i mean actually smb3 comes to mind as equivalent to batman |
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bloody heartland banned
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:39 am |
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| parkbench wrote: |
| I think this is slightly missing the point. The point is that integrity, honesty, and innovative gameplay are inversely proportional to the size of the company working on the game/the size of the franchise/the amount of money involved. |
Frankly, pish. Games like Resident Evil 4, ICO and Katamari birthed from the orifices of massive, massive companies. A great deal of the "indie" scene relies on stolen tropes and riffs on established standards - see Braid.
| Quote: |
| But the first thing you learn about entertainment and/or art (I hath appeased both camps) |
Verily
| Quote: |
| is that the moment the numbers game--sales--matters more than the game itself, things begin to get hairy. I really don't think you have to say anything you can't already feel when you sit down to play Megaman Battlenetwork 27 and you know that they shat this one out without even batting an eye. |
Strawman arguement - Megaman Battlenetwork 27 doesn't exist!
Again though, pish - Capcom make a lot of money on the Battle Network titles, but they also release utterly amazing shit like Resident Evil 4 and Dead Rising and more experimental or whimsical fare like Gregory Horror Show and Zack and Wiki. Where do you think the money from that comes?
Space?
| Quote: |
| I mean think about it honestly: when the order from on high is to "make a racing game" or "we want at least three platformers out the door by this quarter," isn't the process shaky from the start? Games made to fulfill fiscal quotas will inevitably have something lacking because their primary status is that of a commodity and the mindset is that of marketing: "what can we do to appease the most amount of people?" (from abdn: "do they literally need someone to tell them, 'Sports fans like sports games?'") |
Not necessarily: look at Sonic the Hegehog 91, a really awesome, honest game made in reaction to Mario. You're doing this thing where you use your brain to model reality then claim that the results of your brain must be true. But sometimes they are clearly not. Seriously, don't assume anything without checking if it's supported in real life - it's dangerous and you could "come a cropper"
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| Say what you want: the most gratifying art or entertainment has always been the kind that says "screw appeasing people, let's try something different" (and there's always, always something different). |
Except the works of Andy Warhol. Or The KLF. Or Robocop or Terminator 2. Something marketable is not excluded from becoming incredible.
| Quote: |
| This is what the crux of the whole ABDN manifesto thing is saying. Tim, in his long-windedness, has repeatedly stressed the point that "people making games that they'd want to play is not the worst thing that could happen." |
It's what you think the point is, dude. Maybe Tim just likes hits?
Who knows?
Maybe it's just an ordered list of games.
| Quote: |
| Of course it is a balancing act--of course every company and every team of designers strives for integrity and quality in a sea of buffoonery and stats, and of course every game is not either a stunning avant-garde piece of individual genius or a schlocky and totally dull work of shills. In fact, some of "the greatest games" are only possible because the people behind them first slogged through the thankless period of making games they didn't want to make. |
This is possibly because it's hard to create things competently without experience more than anything.
| Quote: |
| But it comes down to: what do you prefer? Even if you recognise these things, even if thinking about it long and hard makes you marvel at the "sir, duality of man, sir," at the end of the day you're probably going to lean--and ultimately, I would choose an independently-made game over a mainstream game, any day. I have that power as a consumer to choose exactly that. What it means is that my choices will involve more risk (my investment is much less reliably worthwhile), my experiences will be much less conventional (and therefore much less conclusively satisfying, like fragging someone in a multiplayer match), and I will usually not be dealing with refined formulas/techniques (as independent works, unless successful, tend to be one-offs). But because I value the ultimate reward, I'm willing to sacrifice those things for what I would claim are more interesting experiences. |
don't actually know what you're trying to say here
| Quote: |
| The point is that, like it or not, games are finally getting used to the idea of 'autership.' The most corporate and the most commodified form of entertainment yet (by its nature--a book can be written on a napkin but who manufactures a game console?) is finally growing out of its own skin and starting to resemble other mediums, against all odds. |
And this is horrifying, because now we've got what feels like a million Hideo Kojimas/Dennis Dyacks who lack the talent and restraint to approach what they really want to do (linear stories) in anything other than the most fundimentally half-cocked and abysmal fashion: dumb fucking anime cutscenes every three seconds.
Want to know when the real age of the auteur was? The 1980s. Microcomputer boom time. Do you have any concept how many one-man games became legend, back then? Do you know how much money was made off their backs?
| Quote: |
] I think this is a good thing because it means more honest games will be made.
And honestly: who doesn't like honesty? |
What's an "honest" game? Is it Galaxians, or more like Pole Position? What is it? What does it mean?
Some people should stick to writing books. |
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CubaLibre the road lawyer

Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Location: Balmer
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:00 am |
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Saints Row is a dishonest game. So is Tekken 6, and Viva Pinata, and Final Fantasy 10. _________________ Let's Play, starring me. |
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Kipple

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:52 am |
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I agree with most of Gillen's ideas, and I guess I like the article... but I really don't think it's a very good piece of writing. Even though I like it, I probably wouldn't forward or recommend it to anyone. This is a great example of why, despite his constant efforts to be known as such, Kieron Gillen will never be the Pauline Kael or even the Roger Ebert of videogame writing.
I mean, he admits that he's drinking while writing it. And it certainly reads like it.
Yes, his examples are bad. The Dark Knight is a horrible example choice for the purposes of his argument; so is GTA4.
But on the other hand, yeah, everyone would be better off if games without multi-million-dollar budgets got critical attention, too. The game critics of today are, more than anything else, technology fetishists... and that really is too bad. _________________
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Dracko a sapphist fool

Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:14 am |
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kieron "ellis' bitch" gillen likes anime and britpop and so should YOU! _________________
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Dracko a sapphist fool

Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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negativedge banned
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:58 am |
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| bloody heartland wrote: |
| I resent this idea that something needs "indie" (god that's such a fucking awful word to append to something) cred to be "worthwhile", which is what this dipstick seems to be buying into. |
The point is you've heard of GTA IV, so you don't need eurogamer to tell you about it. You maybe haven't heard of whatever small game that you might love. It's self serving and frankly a little embarrassing to spend such a disproportionately large amount of time on these titles that 90% of your audience already knows whether they will buy or not, and absolutely 100% of them are at least aware of. Even then, to cover them you've got to go through the handwringing of publishers who let you know what talking points they'd like you to emphasize, tell you exactly when you are allowed to talk about the things they are feeding you, and offer "suggestions" as to what is ok to mention in your reviews and what is not. By comparison, the small studio or one-man outfit is going to be far more open, more willing to say interesting things, and most certainly thrilled with the publicity. It's a more rewarding experience for everyone involved.
I mean christ, if you stopped with the crusades for a second you might have time to entertain actual points every now and again.
Hell, if journalists or critics or what have you did this, they may even be able to identify trends and design decisions that will become wildly popular and/or influential before the fact, rather than desperately scramble for splash ads and top ten lists in their wake. Shape coverage rather than react to it. The media has power, theoretically, but they act in a manner that completely binds them to the scrotum's of the power players for "exclusive" doctored screen shots and talking-point interviews that will remain such for a day or two. Then they moan about it. Take a risk instead, you shit boxes! |
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Dark Age Iron Savior king of finders

Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
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Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:23 am |
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| Dracko wrote: |
| kieron "ellis' bitch" gillen likes anime and britpop and so should YOU! |
Jealousy doesn't suit you. _________________
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