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Renfrew
catchy, and giger-esque
Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Location: Hometown: America
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 Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:54 pm |
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We need more real Jefferson Smiths in Washington.
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v84j3gs2uc7ns4
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:59 pm |
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scratchmonkey
Final Finasty
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:19 pm |
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People should read DFWs essay on McCain.
(It's in Consider the Lobster, if you're wondering.) |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:26 pm |
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| Dracko wrote: |
| Living under the yoke of institutionalised bigotry and ignorance is enough reason to slay democracy as a holy cow. |
The holy cow's been dead since the mid-90s. New metaphors, please.
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Swimmy
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:34 pm |
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Do you mean that democracy hasn't been a sacred cow since the mid-90s, that the metaphor of "sacred cow" is dead, or that democracy has already been slain?
Because democracy is still a sacred cow, I don't see how the metaphor could be meaningless, and only a few posts up you were defending any result that may come from an Obama presidency as long as democracy elected him.
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BalbanesBeoulve
Malicious Bastard
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:54 pm |
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pwned lol
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secondpillow
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Location: Orlando
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:13 pm |
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Look, man, it's good that you want out of the iraq war. But you're still copping out if you think that bailouts and patriot acts are helping us, no matter how much you claim that you're going to make them work for us. No measures that hurt us will help us. |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:16 pm |
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| Swimmy wrote: |
| Do you mean that democracy hasn't been a sacred cow since the mid-90s, that the metaphor of "sacred cow" is dead, or that democracy has already been slain? |
I mean that I'm screwing with Dracko.
But since the point's been raised: democracy's not a universally workable form of government. (Proof of which lies in the fact that we're a democratic republic.) I have a lot of affection for the American government's traditional organization, though, in all honesty, I find the parliamentary system more flexible in its ability to represent the views of the voters. Coalition governance is an interesting midway point between the gradually federalized form of government we've got now and the hyper-radical idea of Thom Jefferson that the Constitution should be burnt and redrafted with each generation.
Yes, that means you run the risk of legitimizing the political power of people with whom you disagree, or whose motives you suspect. Just look at the sanctions that the EU put on Austria when hyperconservative nationalists (whose policies espoused, or at the very least closely reflected, Nazi ideology). Look at America's frequent unwillingness to recognize the authority of international Presidents who were (as far as we know) legitimized via democratic elections. Fuck, look at the Republican party's systematic means of voter intimidation.
I'm not even touching on the issue of whether or not elected officers honorably represent their districts, because there remain the problems of (1) willful obstructions to the polis using a representative government by voting within our own country and (2) accepting that other nations have the right to determine the policies of their governments via democratic methods.
Actual democracies are rare-to-nonexistent because they become unwieldy past a certain population size. However, if I'm ever in a situation with less than ten people, I prefer democratic rule regarding major decisions. With that said, derivations of democratic rule (such as parliamentary coalitions or the two-party system) risk their greatest abuse when coteries form whose members have claims to power outside the political system. Examples of this include the traditional families with power in Japan with respect to the Diet, and (I suspect) the Fed in the US. The result, of course, is a husk of democratic forms of governance within which little aristocracies pupate. This destroys the entire enterprise by removing those figures from full accountability to the people that they represent.
Which is why I can never take seriously anyone who tosses out "holy cow" and "democracy," because the only apparent alternative, at least at the present time, s plutocracy.
Is there a non-democratic form of government that will consistently resist manipulation? That has the turgidity to prevent mood-swings in policy (as the tripartite system was designed to do), and that has the flexibility to redirect government policies when those policies appear, over time, to significantly favor a much smaller percentage of the citizenry?
I'm open to suggestions!
The other possibility, I realize, is that I have failed to respond minimally to fashionable dejection. If this has been the case, I apologize most brutally.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:45 pm |
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| negativedge wrote: |
I'm reading this, now, and all it sounds like is Karl Rove and swiftboat turned the other way now that the Republicans are on the defensive. Yes, like all politicians McCain has bent over in order to earn his party's nomination and attempt to reach the White House. This assertion that it is only McCain that "puts himself first" in an attempt to be President is absurd. Barack Obama has no personal interest in being President? You telling me someone couldn't write the same article about how an opportunistic neophyte saw his opening to put a face to civil unrest after how well received his speech was in '04? Say something about his finding Jesus in the pulpits of Chicago politics as a way up, if not out? These arguments strike me as naive. More narratively compelling than structurally sound.
That said, I haven't finished reading this. It doesn't help that the tone is so bile, repeatedly calling McCain mediocre, selfish and desperately trying to outshine his upbringing (because, of course, the W comparisons are both narratively compelling and democratically on point).
edit: lol they rag on him for telling them his father's name while captured. Some other military dude that obviously hates him says John would be dead if he didn't talk. The implication is that he should have taken one for the team. Well, I'm convinced! Really, this piece is complete garbage and makes me feel bad for even reading it. And I'm not even voting for McCain! |
The bile is ill-advised, but the factual reporting is pretty astounding. He is a womanizer, a drunk, and what's actually bad, a sloppy soldier. He has wheedled his way into all his positions by pure nepotism. Has has crashed three planes, two of them expensive US Government property, and never had his wings removed (another example of blatant nepotism). He should have been kicked out of Annapolis; he should have been grounded; he never should have gotten in the War College; he never should have been Navy liaison to the Senate. At every step his bumbling was only and totally enabled by his last name.
It's a lifetime of entitlement. I can't really scrounge up the fellow-feeling required to feel bad about the less savory parts of the article.
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negativedge
banned
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:52 pm |
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It will be interesting to see the Republican reaction to a sound defeat this cycle should it happen. As we've already seen from those campaign rally videos floating around, the die hard super right can get mad very quickly. They seem to feel entitled, based on how our country has been run in the last eight years. Last time they fell off their perch things got very ugly very quickly. You can already see signs of the Republican elite response if you look in the usual places in the media. They're calling Obama, the democratic senatorial leadership and democratic thinkers "hard left" socialists that are using opportunism to "expand" the new deal. I've actually seen people say that it is the dems that are using "shock and awe" fear tactics to drum up support for radical legislation. Nevermind that has been a tenant of how the right has operated of late. I fear with you that our partisanship is going to get worse before it gets better. Part of this is McCain's fault for drumming up the Rovian base with Palin and the way they try to paint Obama, but his messages have largely been inline with traditional conservatism rather than whatever the hell is currently governing our country. |
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BalbanesBeoulve
Malicious Bastard
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:59 pm |
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| negativedge wrote: |
| Part of this is McCain's fault for drumming up the Rovian base with Palin and the way they try to paint Obama, but his messages have largely been inline with traditional conservatism rather than whatever the hell is currently governing our country. |
Did you miss his new mortage bailout proposal?
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negativedge
banned
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:06 pm |
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| Well, I'm no economist so I can't tell you if that's a good idea or a horrible idea. All I can say is that it is clearly an idea, whereas pretty much all Obama has said on the matter is "yeah lets give them money I guess anyway don't I look presidential?" |
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BalbanesBeoulve
Malicious Bastard
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:57 pm |
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Well besides the fact that it's an awful idea, it's not traditional conservatism. It's so fucking far from traditional conservatism. It's fucking hilarious how these ignorant Republicans at these rallies are now using "socialist" as the new cussword for Obama.
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In a conference call Wednesday morning with reporters and in a follow-up call, McCain's top economic adviser, Douglas Holtz-Eakin, made clear that the Arizona Senator is proposing the first option. Under his plan, the government would buy the mortgages from banks and investors at the original value of the loan, no matter how overinflated that now appears to be. "We're [proposing] buying back the original mortgage at the original value and then giving [the homeowner] the new mortgages" at current values and more affordable interest rates, Holtz-Eakin told BusinessWeek. "Obviously the taxpayer is on the hook for the difference." |
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2008/db2008108_106465.htm
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negativedge
banned
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:42 pm |
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| Well, yeah, it's definitely not conservative, but then again no one in any position of power in either party is suggesting anything that could be construed as being even close to conservative. Traditionally, in times of crisis or what have you, the hands off approach goes out the window. |
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Swimmy
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:09 pm |
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Adilegian, you should look into some public choice material. And prediction markets.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:12 am |
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The crazy thing is how the right hurls their support behind someone like McCain - or any politician at the federal level, really - and spits the word "socialist" at Obama. Every federal politician is a frigging socialist. Dyed in the wool, true blue. It's completely absurd. What kind of blinders do you have to have on to think that McCain is for "small government"?
the same kind that let you believe in Jesus ho ho
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Let's Play, starring me. |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:46 am |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| Talbain wrote: |
| I don't want someone willing to change simply because there's a system that "requires" them to. I want someone willing to change because there's good reason to. There's no good reason to take on the system used today. |
This is vapid. In order to remain a tenable position, it has to ignore the different identities of the American government over the course of history.
This might sound awfully close to "love it or leave it," but if you've already decided that human beings have no moral agency whatsoever, what exactly are you doing with your life? And why? |
I seem to be spending a lot of time explaining that people have no moral agency and I do so because no one believes it despite an almost endless stream of facts proving my point.
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| EDIT: There's also a deep semantic problem what the way that "system" seems to be used in this conversation. Again, recourse to history shows that the American government is anything but calcified. |
No it's not calcified, but it's about as concrete as a "stable" government can be without revolution.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:31 pm |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| I seem to be spending a lot of time explaining that people have no moral agency and I do so because no one believes it despite an almost endless stream of facts proving my point. |
Oh!
This is a more or less defensible position, though I do disagree. That debate aside, it goes a long way toward explaining our differences in this thread.
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BalbanesBeoulve
Malicious Bastard
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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rabite gets whacked!
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:06 pm |
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I've started following the race through Andrew Sullivan's blog, which gives me a little peace of mind cause it features multiple conservative viewpoints addressing how pathologically dangerous the McCain campaign's become.
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| Quote: |
| People who seek novelty will inevitably eventually succumb to ennui. |
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BalbanesBeoulve
Malicious Bastard
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:54 pm |
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If i saw a sign like this, there's no fucking way I'd leave it standing.
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negativedge
banned
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:33 pm |
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| That sign was pretty much how Bush won last go round. |
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:34 pm |
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"Hussein"
The tax thing continues to be ridiculous. For 95% of the population, Obama will give bigger tax breaks than McCain. This is a bare fact. What the fuck are people thinking?
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Let's Play, starring me. |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:23 pm |
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Alternatively: Tucker Bounds makes me think of an ideologue's attack dog released from the cellophane bonds of 1950s propaganda filmstrips.
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DonMarco
graphics fucker
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:49 am |
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| negativedge wrote: |
| That sign was pretty much how Bush won last go round. |
Yeah. And now look where we are: California allows and recognizes same-sex marriages. Here in Orlando, they got this "[url=http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Florida_Marriage_Amendment_(2008)]Amendment 2[/url]" which will hammer out the state constitution to not recognize same-sex unions as "marriages", regardless of other states do. so if two gays or lesbians were married in California, for example, the second they step in to Florida, thier marriage would be void or meaningless. Even more effective would be the amendment barring a judge from later overturning any ruling based on same-sex marriages.
It needs 60% to pass, and it may have a chance.
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secondpillow
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Location: Orlando
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:57 am |
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| The marriage amendment is just another rung on our ladder to a future police state. A man in new york was put away for trying to go to the bathroom at a baseball game during the pledge. A man in tampa is in jail for years because he made porn with consenting performers. The average citizen is not as far from being thrown in jail as they think. |
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Tokyo Rude
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: I'm on the phone Derrick!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:13 am |
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| DonMarco wrote: |
| negativedge wrote: |
| That sign was pretty much how Bush won last go round. |
Yeah. And now look where we are: California allows and recognizes same-sex marriages. Here in Orlando, they got this "[url=http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Florida_Marriage_Amendment_(2008)]Amendment 2[/url]" which will hammer out the state constitution to not recognize same-sex unions as "marriages", regardless of other states do. so if two gays or lesbians were married in California, for example, the second they step in to Florida, thier marriage would be void or meaningless. Even more effective would be the amendment barring a judge from later overturning any ruling based on same-sex marriages.
It needs 60% to pass, and it may have a chance. |
I guess this makes Gay Day in Orlando all the more weird. |
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rabite gets whacked!
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:20 am |
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| DonMarco wrote: |
Yeah. And now look where we are: California allows and recognizes same-sex marriages. |
Well, for the rest of this month... Prop 8 there is awfully popular and well funded there though.
Good job for CT getting the timing right, so nothing can be done against it till next year!
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| Quote: |
| People who seek novelty will inevitably eventually succumb to ennui. |
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BalbanesBeoulve
Malicious Bastard
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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BalbanesBeoulve
Malicious Bastard
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:21 am |
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Holy shit, the preacher from There Will Be Blood at 30 seconds.
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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evnvnv
hapax legomenon
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: the los angeles
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:12 am |
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| BalbanesBeoulve wrote: |
If i saw a sign like this, there's no fucking way I'd leave it standing. |
you know, i like all of those things. i guess that makes me the devil.
ok maybe not more taxes, but i mean come on. |
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Ebrey
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:23 am |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| The tax thing continues to be ridiculous. For 95% of the population, Obama will give bigger tax breaks than McCain. This is a bare fact. What the fuck are people thinking? |
Ex-press secretary Ari Fleischer was on the Daily Show today, saying his problem with Obama was that he wants to eliminate income tax for 45% of the population.
Have we really gotten to the point where Republicans complain about Democrats and their pesky tax cuts? |
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negativedge
banned
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:20 am |
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| Well, I'm seeing plenty of McCain adds saying Obama is too big a deregulator to trust, so probably. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 1:47 pm |
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| Ebrey wrote: |
| Have we really gotten to the point where Republicans complain about Democrats and their pesky tax cuts? |
They like money just as much as the next stuffed shirt.
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Internetics
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:14 pm |
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| Ebrey wrote: |
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| The tax thing continues to be ridiculous. For 95% of the population, Obama will give bigger tax breaks than McCain. This is a bare fact. What the fuck are people thinking? |
Ex-press secretary Ari Fleischer was on the Daily Show today, saying his problem with Obama was that he wants to eliminate income tax for 45% of the population.
Have we really gotten to the point where Republicans complain about Democrats and their pesky tax cuts? |
I'm sure he was referring to the 45% that lives in poverty or near-poverty levels of wealth. This refers to both the young teen runaway living on welfare and the eldery unemployeed mooching off social security.
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:56 pm |
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Man is but a stepping stone to what we can become.
Man is but a stepping stone to what we can become.
Man is but a stepping stone to what we can become.
Man is but a stepping stone to what we can become.
Man is but a stepping stone to what we can become.
Man is but a stepping stone to what wOH GOD SOMEONE JUST FLUSH THE GENE POOL OUT ALREADY
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kzkb1
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Location: a city where you don't come to find love, you come to find the truth
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:02 pm |
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| Obama won't lose. |
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