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Baines
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Backwards difficulty curve |
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| Koji wrote: |
| I think that this design strategy is so widely used that like 50% of games use similar approaches, but some end up suffering this problem, and some don't. |
Some designs are more susceptible to the issue.
Optional areas can cause a problem if they reward the player for the effort, as the designers cannot just assume everyone takes the optional paths.
Linear games can assume the player is gaining at least some abilities as he progresses. Games that allow backtracking can go even further, with areas that expect the player go back to find any necessary items to progress into later and more difficult areas.
Games that encourage the player be able to take areas in different orders have more of a problem, particularly if most or all areas eventually need be dealt with.
Megaman falls into the latter. In prime form, any of eight initial stages is a viable start. You don't actually need additional weapons or items. But each stage offers a new weapon and may offer new items. The stages don't change, but the player becomes more and more capable.
In prime form, because there are sometimes other restrictions in place.
Some stages may be much more difficult to traverse until certain abilities are gained. Heatman's stage in Megaman 2 is an example, due entirely to the long stretch of disappearing blocks. With the air sled (gained from beating Air Man?), that section is trivial.
Another restriction that sometimes comes into play is to limit the number of available stages, as with Megaman & Bass. Instead of eight stages, maybe three or four are available at first, and the rest come after all those are defeated (and the designers can make the second group of stages with the assumption that the player has powered up from the first set.)
There is another step that can be taken which isn't exactly a restriction. The power-ups can simply be weak.
What did Bubble Lead do to make any stage easier, other than to fight Heat Man himself and a battle in Wily's Castle? How many times did you go "This situation cries out for a giant circle to roll across the floor?" You could use it to find invisible pitfalls. But the only invisible pitfalls I recall dropped you safely right back to the previous room, and were thus easy to find by trial and error.
How many weapons do people just not remember? How often did Megaman primarily power up through objects rather than weapons? Energy tanks and sub-tanks and vehicles/Rush options and life extensions and armor and all the other things that were eventually added played a much bigger role in making later stages easier. (With games adding more and more of such things over time.) |
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Baines
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:16 am |
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Actually, with trial and error you can pass the disappearing blocks without Item-2. You just need an adequate combination of talent, patience, and memory. (I don't recall if it pulled any really dirty tricks that guaranteed a death on the first try.)
More so, you face a similar situation in Wily's castle while chased by the dragon, and you cannot rely on Item-2 (or any other item) to navigate that run.
Quick Man's stage is similar in theme. It is much easier to navigate with Flash Man's Flash Stopper. But you can also learn the path with patience, or just extremely good reflexes and ability to comprehend a screen layout quickly. Indeed, you actually get a form of reward if you have the Flash Stopper and don't use it on the lasers, as a full Flash Stopper will take about half of Quick Man's life.
The "best order" thing became something that arguably grew into the franchise, as Capcom played with damage levels, items, and special abilities.
The Megaman 1 loop could be started almost as easily with Bomb Man as it could with Cut Man. The biggest benefit to starting with Cut Man is that Cut Blade made Elec Man trivial, and Elec Beam offered vertical fire. (Bombs on the other hand weren't that great, nor was the follow-up Guts ability, and if you continued the loop you then went to Cut Man anyway.) You could try to start the loop anywhere, though it took more skill on some of the other paths.
I think Nintendo Power suggested you start Megaman 2's loop with Air Man, even though Metal Man would become the popular choice (due to the sheer usefulness of Metal Blade). You could also start okay with Bubble Man, but Bubble Lead was more useless than Air Shot. Flash Man fell okay to the regular gun, but again you get an issue of not much good coming from it (Flash Stopper had limited uses, most of which were in Quick Man's stage) or from its follow-up (Quick Boomerang wasn't that great either.) Wood Man was possible, but Wood Shield's main use was probably cheesing the birds in Air Man's stage for extra lives. |
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Baines
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:39 pm |
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But Wind Waker was "balanced" by everything (except the cave) being easy. Getting more hearts and healing didn't change much because you weren't really in that much danger before you got them anyway.
| Hot Stott Bot wrote: |
If you overcome the challenge of figuring out how to use his power ups correctly, then the game becomes easier, because figuring out how to use his power ups is the primary challenge the game offers you.
So, I would argue that Mega Man actually does have a proper difficulty curve when you think about it. |
Even with the position above, the game doesn't really get more difficult even if the player has zero personal improvement and zero acknowledgement of new items. (At least not until the End stages, which assume the player has everything.) That in itself is more of a difficulty horizontal line, which isn't what most people think of when they talk about a "proper" difficulty curve.
Judging a difficulty curve presumably assumes the player will learn to get at least some benefit from power-ups and abilities. To do otherwise is to say that games that do have that expectation actually have steep difficulty curves.
Take an arguably extreme hypothetical: Imagine a modified Street Fighter 2. You can always pick who you want to fight next, and everyone up to the bosses will be at the same general difficulty level regardless of when you pick them. You start with no special moves, no kick buttons, and half a life bar. You gain one special or kick button per stage, and maybe some life. People wouldn't find that balanced. |
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Baines
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:56 am |
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| alice wrote: |
I think this thread is becoming a bit misleading:
We seem to be making too much of an example of megaman; Yes, it is true that most games will feature powerups later on that make the game easier, but name one game that doesn't also progressively become harder as you play on. |
Megaman is being covered so much because it was the game that led to the creation of the thread and because it is a particularly good example of an effect that can be more nebulous elsewhere.
The initial post gave a good description (which actually covers more than just a game that gets easier): Playing well leads to more bonuses which makes the game easier. Or playing poorly leads to penalties that make the game harder.
Yes, most games are made in a way that the challenges faced continue to increase, regardless of whether the game is designed to give the player new abilities or equipment.
But that doesn't mean the challenge increases at the rate the player character improves.
Then there are optional bonuses. Optional items are often rewards for playing better than normal. When they affect gameplay, they often tend to make the game easier. So playing well can get you something that makes the game easier, while playing poorly causes you to miss those aids.
But the issue of optional bonuses doesn't stop there. Most games don't get too fancy on increasing difficulty. There is one difficulty progression, balanced for one of the following: getting all the optional things, getting none, or some vague middle ground.
Issues like the above can be somewhat covered by other mechanics.
Games that allow backtracking have the argument that if you miss something, you can just go back and get it.
RPGs love to reward weird and difficult challenges with super items or abilities, but RPGs already have the whole grinding issue, where you can just continue to battle to get stronger. People that really want a challenge in most console RPGs already apply various handicaps to themselves (like trying to win with an extremely low level.) Thus there isn't much complaint if you get a guaranteed 1-hit kill anything spell from beating some super monster. |
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Baines
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:57 am |
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The original three large paragraphs looked worse.
HTML isn't always friendly to text layouts, not without serious tag use. |
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