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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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 Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:38 am |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| I think you misunderstand - this "underclass" comprises everyone beneath the higher reaches of the economic upper-middle-class. After all, you need the proper ratio of managers to employees - too many cooks spoil the soup. |
But that basically means we need to spend more money on creating better parents (better teachers?), not better kids. The kids can't be held responsible for their parents income level. |
Money isn't the problem. We're already spending absurd quantities of money for what has historically been a fairly cheap thing to accomplish. People - children - can teach themselves, if given the tools. That's exactly what schooling is designed to prevent. It's expensive because it's unnatural; it's difficult, inefficient and costly to thoroughly suppress natural curiosity.
But, it's not so inefficient that the later efficiencies (in demographic control) don't more than make up for it. You can thank the modern school for our wild leaps in Standard Of Living. From that perspective, they're working perfectly. One needs only to continue greasing the wheels.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:38 am |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| You can thank the modern school for our wild leaps in Standard Of Living. From that perspective, they're working perfectly. One needs only to continue greasing the wheels. |
I followed you until you got to this. Wild leaps in terms of what? I seem to recall the economy growing steadily upward but I accounted that for inflation, not for poor education practices. So explain how we're getting to your conclusion?
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:21 pm |
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Our standard of living is only enabled by huge, centralized industrial and post-industrial corporations. They're incredibly efficient at researching and making products, as well as refining them into new products, such that we have a constant stream of better and better - and cheaper and cheaper - products. You can have color cable TV and still be at "poverty level" these days. That's something.
But huge, centralized corporations are enabled by mass compulsory schooling. It's not really possible to have one without the other.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm
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Broco
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:52 pm |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| I followed you until you got to this. Wild leaps in terms of what? I seem to recall the economy growing steadily upward but I accounted that for inflation, not for poor education practices. So explain how we're getting to your conclusion? |
You seem to be saying that you think economic growth is just an illusion caused by growth in money supply? The GDP growth figures you hear reported every year are adjusted to take out the effects of inflation, so we really are producing 3% (or whatever) more products and services every non-recessionary year. This is caused by steady advances in technology and in the efficiency of institutional processes. |
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manmachine plays jazz
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:03 pm |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| Talbain wrote: |
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| I think you misunderstand - this "underclass" comprises everyone beneath the higher reaches of the economic upper-middle-class. After all, you need the proper ratio of managers to employees - too many cooks spoil the soup. |
But that basically means we need to spend more money on creating better parents (better teachers?), not better kids. The kids can't be held responsible for their parents income level. |
Money isn't the problem. We're already spending absurd quantities of money for what has historically been a fairly cheap thing to accomplish. People - children - can teach themselves, if given the tools. That's exactly what schooling is designed to prevent. It's expensive because it's unnatural; it's difficult, inefficient and costly to thoroughly suppress natural curiosity.
But, it's not so inefficient that the later efficiencies (in demographic control) don't more than make up for it. You can thank the modern school for our wild leaps in Standard Of Living. From that perspective, they're working perfectly. One needs only to continue greasing the wheels. |
cuba, you say that people can teach themselves, but i think some sort of structure and methodology is necessary to get a well-rounded education. |
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:53 pm |
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| Broco wrote: |
| Talbain wrote: |
| I followed you until you got to this. Wild leaps in terms of what? I seem to recall the economy growing steadily upward but I accounted that for inflation, not for poor education practices. So explain how we're getting to your conclusion? |
You seem to be saying that you think economic growth is just an illusion caused by growth in money supply? The GDP growth figures you hear reported every year are adjusted to take out the effects of inflation, so we really are producing 3% (or whatever) more products and services every non-recessionary year. This is caused by steady advances in technology and in the efficiency of institutional processes. |
To an extent I believe the growth is false. Or at least questionable enough that these giant tumbles in market values occur every couple of decades. I believe there is real growth, but I don't believe it's accurately reflected in our records.
So Cuba, you're basically saying that in order to continue pumping out better product, you have to pump out better/new consumers? Not really sure that's the actual intent of the schooling system. If it is though, I suppose it accounts for the dumbing down of America. I'd propose that it's actually the fact that our technology is growing faster than we are though (in that we're not adapting fast enough because we just can't keep pace).
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:17 pm |
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| We can keep pace plenty -- we're the ones making it, afterall. Thing is, we're encouraged to specialize to the point that we ignore anything outside of our fields -- this is why it's so amazing that Obama embraces social networking sites. |
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manmachine plays jazz
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:45 pm |
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but mommy, i don't believe in evolution GDP! |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:06 am |
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| manmachine plays jazz wrote: |
but mommy, i don't believe in evolution GDP! |
And that's not it. What I'm saying is that we have periods of growth, but those periods are spurred after periods of downturn. What I'm saying is that the periods of downturn, particularly the large ones, when looked at from a larger historical perspective, show growth only in the fact that our population is getting bigger thus creating more purchasing power by way of having more consumers. The actual amount created is only created as a result of needing to satisfy the new markets, whereas the actual growth of the market would assume excess outside of this new need. Obviously the goal is to try to simply build toward satisfying the market, not saturating it. Problem is, companies don't really care about saturation as long as sales continue to be good. Growth in the GDP is market saturation, which, while it is a form of growth, it's also why we have these giant downturns every once in awhile. Too much saturation of markets and no new markets to invest in. Basically, I see the growth of the GDP as an indicator of how soon we'll end up hitting the wall of economic downturn, because businesses do not know the meaning of restraint. Unfortunately regulatory committees are the same way, either not knowing the meaning of restraint or being utter failures at their job. The middle ground is the goal, but people tend towards the extremes, especially in matters of money.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:43 am |
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| manmachine plays jazz wrote: |
| cuba, you say that people can teach themselves, but i think some sort of structure and methodology is necessary to get a well-rounded education. |
Obviously. But why should that structure be propounded upon a hundred million schoolchildren simultaneously by the Department of Education?
| Talbain wrote: |
| So Cuba, you're basically saying that in order to continue pumping out better product, you have to pump out better/new consumers? Not really sure that's the actual intent of the schooling system. If it is though, I suppose it accounts for the dumbing down of America. |
That's precisely the point. It's the clearly-stated intent of the men that founded modern public schooling. If you read the link I posted, you'll see what I mean.
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:49 am |
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Funny how Bioshock got the point across so well: somebody's got to clean the toilets, after all. Everyone says life should be fair, but if it truly was we'd get nothing done.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:06 am |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| That's precisely the point. It's the clearly-stated intent of the men that founded modern public schooling. If you read the link I posted, you'll see what I mean. |
And I would argue that you can't really create consumers, consumers basically create themselves. If the school system contributes to this, it's only incidental in the fact that it's an environmental factor to growth, state-sponsored or not.
Also, I don't really buy into Orwellian theory. I tend to think people are smarter than taking something at face value, especially in America, the land of sarcasm and satire. Obviously not everyone's going to get into college from merely being observant, but there's more there than people are credited for.
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:19 am |
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| GcDiaz wrote: |
| Funny how Bioshock got the point across so well: somebody's got to clean the toilets, after all. Everyone says life should be fair, but if it truly was we'd get nothing done. |
We can, and should, clean up after ourselves. |
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:22 am |
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| spinach wrote: |
| GcDiaz wrote: |
| Funny how Bioshock got the point across so well: somebody's got to clean the toilets, after all. Everyone says life should be fair, but if it truly was we'd get nothing done. |
We can, and should, clean up after ourselves. |
So after you take a shit and that one stubborn turd makes a brown streak on the bottom of the bowl even as it's being flushed, do you clean that before you leave?
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:02 am |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| I tend to think people are smarter than taking something at face value, especially in America, the land of sarcasm and satire. |
So, fancy a bridge?
Alternatively: Has history taught you nothing?
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:20 am |
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| Dracko wrote: |
| Talbain wrote: |
| I tend to think people are smarter than taking something at face value, especially in America, the land of sarcasm and satire. |
So, fancy a bridge?
Alternatively: Has history taught you nothing? |
History is a series of quotations of the extremes, which I've already mentioned previously as being poor judges. The history of the average man is not being president, so to speak. The people at the extremes are making the decisions, but people at large do not tend towards such extremes.
If history were to teach me something, it's that people are remarkably resilient.
As for the bridge comment, you're a douche.
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:32 am |
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| GcDiaz wrote: |
| spinach wrote: |
| GcDiaz wrote: |
| Funny how Bioshock got the point across so well: somebody's got to clean the toilets, after all. Everyone says life should be fair, but if it truly was we'd get nothing done. |
We can, and should, clean up after ourselves. |
So after you take a shit and that one stubborn turd makes a brown streak on the bottom of the bowl even as it's being flushed, do you clean that before you leave? |
Oh god, yes. I'm not even meticulous and I don't stand for that.
Say, have you been keeping up with autogestion? |
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:10 pm |
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| spinach wrote: |
Say, have you been keeping up with autogestion? |
I just looked it up. Fine by me, if the base perils of human nature can be held off long enough for the thing to run right. Not every job in the factory requires the same level of skill. I hope those doing the menial stuff are OK with their brethren earning more for their time, in such an egalitarian environment.
My definition of liberty is not "freedom to", it's "freedom from".
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:40 pm |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| If history were to teach me something, it's that people are remarkably resilient. |
This does not exclude them from being susceptible. Hey, they kept falling for the same bullshit (extremes) constantly. There's no reason they couldn't again. Especially if it's of no benefit for said extremes for them to appreciate otherwise.
In other words, why would the state benefit from educating you more than it has to?
America not taking things at face value?
What's the Bible again?
P.S. The Underground History of American Education is excellent.
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Last edited by Dracko on Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:24 pm |
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| GcDiaz wrote: |
| spinach wrote: |
Say, have you been keeping up with autogestion? |
I just looked it up. Fine by me, if the base perils of human nature can be held off long enough for the thing to run right. Not every job in the factory requires the same level of skill. I hope those doing the menial stuff are OK with their brethren earning more for their time, in such an egalitarian environment. |
Everyone in such organizations makes the same wage, being equal partners and all. Level of skill is sort of a bullshit factor -- work needs doing and if it's ignored, things fall apart. How much do you value paved roads and clean water?
| GcDiaz wrote: |
| My definition of liberty is not "freedom to", it's "freedom from". |
The only real way to get freedom from is to exercise your freedom to, as many hard-working Americans are learning the hard way. |
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:27 pm |
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| spinach wrote: |
| GcDiaz wrote: |
| spinach wrote: |
Say, have you been keeping up with autogestion? |
I just looked it up. Fine by me, if the base perils of human nature can be held off long enough for the thing to run right. Not every job in the factory requires the same level of skill. I hope those doing the menial stuff are OK with their brethren earning more for their time, in such an egalitarian environment. |
Everyone in such organizations makes the same wage, being equal partners and all. Level of skill is sort of a bullshit factor -- work needs doing and if it's ignored, things fall apart. How much do you value paved roads and clean water? |
Holy hell does autogestion sound like a bad idea. As you increase the complexity of the work it only sounds more and more terrifying.
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:38 pm |
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| spinach wrote: |
Level of skill is sort of a bullshit factor -- work needs doing and if it's ignored, things fall apart. How much do you value paved roads and clean water?
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Enough to pay those responsible the kind of money they deserve. Skill as bullshit? Seriously?
What you're suggesting only works by force, and then there is no freedom or equality. Go live in Cuba for a bit. Tell us all about it.
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:40 pm |
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| Sounds that way on paper, but in practice it's mostly worked out. Chaotic systems can do that. |
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:43 pm |
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Please point me to examples where this has worked out for any complicated job. Cleaning a kitchen or filtering water doesn't count. Constructing a highway would - as long as we're not talking about a dirt and cobblestone highway.
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:47 pm |
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| Predator Goose wrote: |
Holy hell does autogestion sound like a bad idea. As you increase the complexity of the work it only sounds more and more terrifying. |
Nah, it can work. People choosing to work together to achieve a common goal, owning their own jobs, profit sharing and all that. It's the ideal, provided EVERYONE is committed to the same grand goal, and are 1-) happy to contribute their part, and 2-) content with what they're paid to do it.
There's the rub. Don't tell the people doing R&D or sales that they don't get paid anymore than the janitorial staff. Them's fighting words.
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:50 pm |
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The more complex a job is though the more necessary it is to have some kind of managerial hiearchy. I don't want to run a nuclear power plant and have to run the waste disposal budget by the janitor every time.
It'd be like if America was truly a democracy, and every decision was made by voter majority. Which is to say that America would be right fucked.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:54 pm |
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| Dracko wrote: |
| In other words, why would the state benefit from educating you more than it has to? |
This rings an intuitive bell, but it's not really the amount of education, it's the type. That is to say: the problem with modern schools isn't that they are simply holding cells where no learning is done. On the contrary, they have a substantive plan of indoctrination that precludes other plans. It's just that this "education" bears no relation to classical liberal education, or even practical education as understood by most people who send their children to school. But of course it's eminently practical, after a fashion: it teaches you to be an efficient and loyal corporate/industrial drone, which is where most of the jobs are, after all.
As far as "freedom from," that's a distinction that only makes sense if you can define from what, and, more importantly, by who. If you say "the State" you already lose the game.
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:55 pm |
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| spinach wrote: |
| Sounds that way on paper, but in practice it's mostly worked out. Chaotic systems can do that. |
Oh lord, this shit sounds textbook. "Chaotic systems", huh? Nothing you've seen in person, then?
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:55 pm |
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| GcDiaz wrote: |
| spinach wrote: |
Level of skill is sort of a bullshit factor -- work needs doing and if it's ignored, things fall apart. How much do you value paved roads and clean water?
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Enough to pay those responsible the kind of money they deserve. Skill as bullshit? Seriously?
What you're suggesting only works by force, and then there is no freedom or equality. Go live in Cuba for a bit. Tell us all about it. |
Skill isn't bullshit. Level of skill, especially as related to certain tasks, is bullshit.
An hourly wage that stays the same no matter how well you do from hour to hour, and is only going to go up as you reach a certain paygrade, that's fine if you're into it, but think about what's going on in the lives and bottom lines of the people who sign your checks. In autogestion, if you want to make more, the company has to make more -- your paycheck is a direct reflection of how well you've done, not just at working hard, but working smart. That's getting the kind of money you deserve.
Tell me, Diaz -- how is an employee-owned business in any way forced? Cuba is not a free country, Diaz, I will tell you that straight off, but man I'm not even talking about Cuba. |
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:58 pm |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
As far as "freedom from," that's a distinction that only makes sense if you can define from what, and, more importantly, by who. If you say "the State" you already lose the game. |
From being fucked with, by whoever. Long as what you do doesn't hurt anyone but you, it's all good. Hey, a man can dream.
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:59 pm |
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| spinach wrote: |
| Tell me, Diaz -- how is an employee-owned business in any way forced? Cuba is not a free country, Diaz, I will tell you that straight off, but man I'm not even talking about Cuba. |
Autogestion has to be forced because it's a system that's designed to benefit the workers and maximize their satisfaction. It would get crushed in a free market against a more tradionally capitalistic company that empasized corporate profits and customer satisfaction.
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:00 pm |
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| GcDiaz wrote: |
| spinach wrote: |
| Sounds that way on paper, but in practice it's mostly worked out. Chaotic systems can do that. |
Oh lord, this shit sounds textbook. "Chaotic systems", huh? Nothing you've seen in person, then? |
I've practiced it, and I still practice it. It puts a roof over my head, food on my table and clothes on my back. I am a man who walks his talk. |
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:04 pm |
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| spinach wrote: |
Skill isn't bullshit. Level of skill, especially as related to certain tasks, is bullshit. |
And these are not the same thing, how?
| Quote: |
| In autogestion, if you want to make more, the company has to make more -- your paycheck is a direct reflection of how well you've done, not just at working hard, but working smart. That's getting the kind of money you deserve. |
No, that's getting the kind of money you want. I'm guessing these raises will be applied via majority vote? What's to stop the majority from taking it to unreasonable levels?
| Quote: |
| Tell me, Diaz -- how is an employee-owned business in any way forced? Cuba is not a free country, Diaz, I will tell you that straight off, but man I'm not even talking about Cuba. |
I never said an employee-owned business was forced labor. Hell I defended autogestion a few posts up. It's just your idea that people of all skill levels should receive the same pay: the only way people would settle for that is if they had no choice. A.K.A. force. I used Cuba because that's the nearest thing to what you're proposing. Doctors and other professionals settling for less pay than they deserve, for the good of the state and whatnot. Newsflash: they don't like it.
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:06 pm |
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| Predator Goose wrote: |
| spinach wrote: |
| Tell me, Diaz -- how is an employee-owned business in any way forced? Cuba is not a free country, Diaz, I will tell you that straight off, but man I'm not even talking about Cuba. |
Autogestion has to be forced because it's a system that's designed to benefit the workers and maximize their satisfaction. It would get crushed in a free market against a more tradionally capitalistic company that empasized corporate profits and customer satisfaction. |
Customer satisfaction is still the function, and profits are still the goal -- these are, after all, people doing a job to feed their families. It's pre-industrial capitalist mindset at work in industry. Traditional capitalism is all about people looking out for their own bottom line. |
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:06 pm |
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| spinach wrote: |
| GcDiaz wrote: |
| spinach wrote: |
| Sounds that way on paper, but in practice it's mostly worked out. Chaotic systems can do that. |
Oh lord, this shit sounds textbook. "Chaotic systems", huh? Nothing you've seen in person, then? |
I've practiced it, and I still practice it. It puts a roof over my head, food on my table and clothes on my back. I am a man who walks his talk. |
Predator Goose already asked you to provide examples. You say you walk it but you won't even talk it.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:08 pm |
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| GcDiaz wrote: |
| CubaLibre wrote: |
As far as "freedom from," that's a distinction that only makes sense if you can define from what, and, more importantly, by who. If you say "the State" you already lose the game. |
From being fucked with, by whoever. Long as what you do doesn't hurt anyone but you, it's all good. Hey, a man can dream. |
Ah, the harm principle. A classic.
What if the fact that gay marriages are taking place in my country harms my religious and moral sensibilities?
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:11 pm |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| GcDiaz wrote: |
| CubaLibre wrote: |
As far as "freedom from," that's a distinction that only makes sense if you can define from what, and, more importantly, by who. If you say "the State" you already lose the game. |
From being fucked with, by whoever. Long as what you do doesn't hurt anyone but you, it's all good. Hey, a man can dream. |
Ah, the harm principle. A classic.
What if the fact that gay marriages are taking place in my country harms my religious and moral sensibilities? |
Tough shit. My definition of harm involves actual harm, something that truly intrudes on your ability to live, love, and pursue happiness. Not some shit you can just ignore if you've got a drop of sense.
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:13 pm |
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double post. I don't need to make my point THAT badly.
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Last edited by GcDiaz on Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:14 pm |
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| spinach wrote: |
| Predator Goose wrote: |
| spinach wrote: |
| Tell me, Diaz -- how is an employee-owned business in any way forced? Cuba is not a free country, Diaz, I will tell you that straight off, but man I'm not even talking about Cuba. |
Autogestion has to be forced because it's a system that's designed to benefit the workers and maximize their satisfaction. It would get crushed in a free market against a more tradionally capitalistic company that empasized corporate profits and customer satisfaction. |
Customer satisfaction is still the function, and profits are still the goal -- these are, after all, people doing a job to feed their families. It's pre-industrial capitalist mindset at work in industry. Traditional capitalism is all about people looking out for their own bottom line. |
And that's why it would crush the autogestion competition. Another way to put that bolded section is to say that they're just better at maximising profits. Keep in mind that traditional capitalism has a lot more options that an autogestion corporation wouldn't really have, or would seriously implode over. Like merging with other companies, laying off sections of the workforce, and outsourcing jobs to other countries. They've also got the autogestion people beat on response time, since decisions can be handled quickly without the need to consult every member of the workforce.
On a small scale, like a college campus coffee house, autogestion could probably work quite well. On jobs that require high degrees of managment ability to manage resources, time, and manpower, like running car factories or road construction crews, autogestion would likely be soundly trounced.
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:21 pm |
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| Predator Goose wrote: |
They've also got the autogestion people beat on response time, since decisions can be handled quickly without the need to consult every member of the workforce.
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In all fairness, big decisions like that would be left to the group handling high-level duties (so, a hierarchy, when everyone's supposed to be equal. Imagine that). For anything else, people would be expected to make their own decisions based on what they needed.
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