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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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 Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:23 pm |
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| bloody heartland wrote: |
| definately |
DEFINITELY. IT'S DEFINITELY, DAMN IT! STOP MISSPELLING IT, ESPECIALLY IN POSTS THAT ARE OTHERWISE FINE!
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| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:09 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| bloody heartland wrote: |
| definately |
DEFINITELY. IT'S DEFINITELY, DAMN IT! STOP MISSPELLING IT, ESPECIALLY IN POSTS THAT ARE OTHERWISE FINE! |
also use Unix
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bloody heartland
banned
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:39 pm |
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| Happy birthday, BenoitRen! |
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Cossix
submersible administrator
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: San Jose
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:19 pm |
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Yeah that definately gets on my nerves too
And flash why do websites have to use flash don't they know OPEN STANDARDS |
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:41 pm |
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| Flash is flashy. Open standards aren't. |
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TheTigerHobbes
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:42 pm |
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| Man, fuck the .1% of internet users who can't support Flash player. |
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:55 pm |
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| TheTigerHobbes wrote: |
| Man, fuck the .1% of internet users who can't support Flash player. |
Fuck you for being so closed-minded.
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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TheTigerHobbes
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:35 pm |
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I don't think it's closed-minded at all. I mean, as a web designer/developer, yes, I'll concede that the optimum solution in the case of a Flash site is to provide an alternate CSS version for those who can't support it; this is particularly true with the rising usage of the iPhone and its ilk.
The simple fact of the matter is that Flash can do things that CSS alone can't. Is it often poorly utilized? Yep. But so is CSS. Dismissing Flash outright has always seemed preposterous to me. |
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:53 pm |
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| TheTigerHobbes wrote: |
I don't think it's closed-minded at all. I mean, as a web designer/developer, yes, I'll concede that the optimum solution in the case of a Flash site is to provide an alternate CSS version for those who can't support it; this is particularly true with the rising usage of the iPhone and its ilk.
The simple fact of the matter is that Flash can do things that CSS alone can't. Is it often poorly utilized? Yep. But so is CSS. Dismissing Flash outright has always seemed preposterous to me. |
You don't get it. Flash is a proprietary standard. The web is built on open standards. As such Flash doesn't belong on the web. It also creates accessibility problems. Plus, Flash sucks.
Requiring a proprietary plug-in to view a website is bone-headed.
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:32 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| You don't get it. Flash is a proprietary standard. The web is built on open standards. As such Flash doesn't belong on the web. It also creates accessibility problems. Plus, Flash sucks. |
Most of the web is actually based on recommendations, not standards. They concern themselves with ends, not means. This is what makes the notion of web able to adapt itself to de facto leaders like Flash.
It's also worth noting Flash isn't a proprietary standard, it's an application, which is not quite the same thing. |
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TheTigerHobbes
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:37 pm |
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| Yeah, I don't think inflammatory and unbacked statements like, "Plus, Flash sucks" really help your case. There's an intelligent discussion to be had somewhere here, but you're not really pushing in that direction. |
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:24 pm |
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chevluh: Semantics.
Oh, just because one sentence that doesn't contribute to the discussion nullifies the whole post? Yeah, right.
Flash does suck. Compare the CPU load of your web browser playing a Flash movie versus the Flash movie playing in your movie player of choice. Then there's the GNU/Linux port...
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:13 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| chevluh: Semantics. |
Standards are all about semantics, quite unlike silly baseless statements like Flash not belonging on the web. It fits within the recommendations, as these allow pretty much free reign for web apps. There's nothing anywhere that says anything about those apps or standards being free, and these being recommendations they aren't limiting in any way. It's their nature. It's because their authors have long ago found out that the "use what people use" attitude was what would make a collaborative project the size of the web possible. |
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TheTigerHobbes
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:25 pm |
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So the bulk of your point is that a) Flash has a CPU usage and b) Flash isn't open-source, so therefore it's useless? It's ironic that you used the phrase "closed-minded," because that's exactly what you're being.
I'll say it again: Is Flash necessary or even appropriate for everything on the internet? Clearly not. Does it enable things that can't be done or can't be done as well otherwise? Yes, obviously.
The player is free and available on a vast, vast majority of computers operating today. I think it's a strange notion to discount it based on, what, the fact that you might have to physically go and download something that was created by a large company? |
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:15 pm |
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| chevluh wrote: |
| Standards are all about semantics, quite unlike silly baseless statements like Flash not belonging on the web. |
It's not a baseless statement. I've explained my statement twice now, but you still don't get it.
| Quote: |
| There's nothing anywhere that says anything about those apps or standards And it's because you don't get that these are real problems on an open platform as the web that I'm callling you closed-minded. Your only counter-arguments are that it can do things that other stuff can't, and that it not being open-source is not a problem. But that's irrelevant.being free, and these being recommendations they aren't limiting in any way. |
Free is not the same as open.
| TheTigerHobbes wrote: |
| So the bulk of your point is that a) Flash has a CPU usage and b) Flash isn't open-source, so therefore it's useless? |
Flash doesn't have to be open-source. But it's not something implementing an open specification. Also, to reiterate, it's bad for accessibility. That Flash is a piece of crap when it comes to implementation is a secondary argument. My main beef is with it being a proprietary plug-in that websites force down our troath, so to speak.
| Quote: |
| I think it's a strange notion to discount it based on, what, the fact that you might have to physically go and download something that was created by a large company? |
No one should need any plug-in just to visit a website. Everything should degrade gracefully. Flash doesn't do this.
Mind you, I make this same argument for JavaScript. No one should require JavaScript to navigate a site; it should degrade gracefully. In contrast to Flash, JavaScript is an open specification, and acts complimentary to HTML instead of replacing it. In the same vein, you can turn off CSS and still access all of the content.
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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TheTigerHobbes
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:29 pm |
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Hey, I can't argue with any of that; hence my statement at the very beginning that Flash sites should provide HTML alternatives.
Really, though, Flash can do a number of things that HTML and CSS alone can't; I still say that discounting the possibilities of animation and interactivity is a step in the entirely wrong direction. If it's not your cup of tea, then cool, but to say it "doesn't belong on the web" is like arguing that TV is worthless because radio dramas shouldn't need visuals. |
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:54 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Free is not the same as open. |
And that's irrelevant because there's no mention of openness in the web recommendations for web apps. Nor is that graceful degradation thing. Embedded applications are expected to exist on their own terms as long as they embed.
It's, according to those recommendations, exactly like asking an embedded video to "gracefully" degrade to an all-text scene-by-scene script of that video. It's prodigiously rare to see that, and people who want to view a video are expected to have the relevant and quite possibly proprietary (hellooo quicktime) player.
Basically the problem here is that open software is essentially a matter of ideology, but when the web recommandations and standards were written they took care to stick to technical aspects and not let ideology get in the way of creating the web.
Last edited by chevluh on Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tlon
Joined: 25 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:48 am |
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Flash is obsfucating and annoying. use it when you NEED to use it but in my job i go to heaps and heaps of band/gig/club websites and the ones with flash are just irritating
i'll make a slight exception for interesting band websites since i can use MySpace for the barebones info but thats it
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Someday somethings coming
From way out beyond the stars
To kill us while we stand here
It will store our brains in mason jars |
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:40 pm |
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| personally I really only like it as an animation tool, though I have a huge respect for huge flash games like Dofus. |
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sarsamis
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:07 pm |
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| God damn |
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:50 pm |
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| BenRen, until there is a suitable FLOSS alternative to Flash, we will continue to see the widespread use of Flash throughout the Internet. Loudly proclaiming that Flash sucks and has no place on the Internet will not change that. We like what it does. It's sexy. We need sexier FLOSS. |
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:51 pm |
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The thing that really is annoying about flash is the lack of 64bit-support. 2005 is over, move on, Adobe.
Someone should tell them that a proper flash64-bit-version would be ... nice? That wrapper-plugin-workaround is okay, but still, you'd think that someone could care about this, since the 64bit-cpus have been around for, uh, quite some time now?
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:09 pm |
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| I don't really have any numbers handy but from what I remember the userbase should still be small compared to the 32 bit cpus. |
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haze
la belle poney sans merci
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:18 pm |
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I use Flash for my INFINITE CANVAS WEBCOMICS WEBGRAPHIC WEBNOVELS. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:23 pm |
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i use flash to stream porn
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:14 pm |
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| Really, though, Flash can do a number of things that HTML and CSS alone can't; I still say that discounting the possibilities of animation and interactivity is a step in the entirely wrong direction. |
I'll admit that I have less of a problem with Flash games or Flash animations. I like some Flash spoof as much as the next guy/gal. But to use it for your entire website or even your navigation is just heresy.
| chevluh wrote: |
| And that's irrelevant because there's no mention of openness in the web recommendations for web apps. Nor is that graceful degradation thing. |
You might want to read the other documents of the W3C besides the technical recommendations. I know that graceful degradation is at least in there.
| Quote: |
| It's, according to those recommendations, exactly like asking an embedded video to "gracefully" degrade to an all-text scene-by-scene script of that video. |
That's not a good comparison, because in this scenario, the video is the content. Flash websites are not only embedded content, they embed everything. The navigation, the links, everything.
| spinach wrote: |
| Loudly proclaiming that Flash sucks and has no place on the Internet will not change that. We like what it does. It's sexy. |
Your web browser freezing at 100% CPU because of a ton of Flash ads and an embedded Flash video is sexy? I beg to differ. Hurray for Adblock Plus.
Though I don't even have Flash installed on my primary PC. I use a stand-alone Flash Player.
| Gironika wrote: |
| That wrapper-plugin-workaround is okay, but still, you'd think that someone could care about this, since the 64bit-cpus have been around for, uh, quite some time now? |
Why are you complaining about this in respect to Flash when 95% of the whole world doesn't care about 64-bit applications?
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:20 pm |
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| Flash is dumb because no right click. |
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manmachine plays jazz
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:42 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
Your web browser freezing at 100% CPU because of a ton of Flash ads and an embedded Flash video is sexy? I beg to differ. Hurray for Adblock Plus.
Though I don't even have Flash installed on my primary PC. I use a stand-alone Flash Player.
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your ancient PC might be why this happens! |
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:25 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It's, according to those recommendations, exactly like asking an embedded video to "gracefully" degrade to an all-text scene-by-scene script of that video. |
That's not a good comparison, because in this scenario, the video is the content. Flash websites are not only embedded content, they embed everything. The navigation, the links, everything. |
It's no obligation, they embed whatever they want. You'll find sites that embed the links just as well as sites that don't. I've even seen the curious case of a site that embedded only the links, every other kind of content was HTML.
The comparison is very pertinent because both flash and vid players are embedded applications, regardless of the content they're used to display. From the W3C's point of view apps are black boxes, what's inside is none of their concern, the nature of the content is irrelevant.
Also for the bit about graceful degradation, degradation in the W3C recommendations is about the presentation layer, i.e. stuff that's managed by the browsers, not the embedded applications which have free reign over what they do. The same would hold just as true as flash for, say, an embedded java program or even activeX controls in IE, which themselves could be embedded mini-browsers or movie players or whatever. Them being black boxes a square with the little no-flash-can't-load (or java can't load or whatever) is actually degradation that fits the recommendations. |
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TheTigerHobbes
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:54 am |
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| Gironika wrote: |
The thing that really is annoying about flash is the lack of 64bit-support. 2005 is over, move on, Adobe.
Someone should tell them that a proper flash64-bit-version would be ... nice? That wrapper-plugin-workaround is okay, but still, you'd think that someone could care about this, since the 64bit-cpus have been around for, uh, quite some time now? |
The Windows version of Flash CS4 does indeed have 64-bit support, and the next OSX version supposedly will as well. |
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:38 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Why are you complaining about this in respect to Flash when 95% of the whole world doesn't care about 64-bit applications? |
Currently testing a 64-bit ubuntu-version and since 32bit apps work as well it's no problem applicationwise, just install the thing that's available and there you go. However, why should I install a seperate 32-bit-browser just to have flash as Adobe suggests?
It's the only thing (okay, virtual box installation aside though that was more due to me forgetting to have some libs in the right place) that needed some searching to come up with a proper solution. I see why Adobe wouldn't care in 2005, though four years later they surely could have done a proper job, even more so when reading this:
| TheTigerHobbes wrote: |
| The Windows version of Flash CS4 does indeed have 64-bit support, and the next OSX version supposedly will as well. |
Now that's surprising then. Let's see whether a linux-bound solution hits the web before 2010 or not then.
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:57 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| spinach wrote: |
| Loudly proclaiming that Flash sucks and has no place on the Internet will not change that. We like what it does. It's sexy. |
Your web browser freezing at 100% CPU because of a ton of Flash ads and an embedded Flash video is sexy? I beg to differ. Hurray for Adblock Plus. |
Silly man, it doesn't matter if it's a resource hog, look how shiny it is. People want shiny. We're building up more and more resources for Flash to suck up, and on fewer watts, even. Should that sexier FLOSS alternative use fewer resources, I guess that's all the more reason to make a switch? |
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:36 pm |
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| irregardless of what your being told by others benoitren it has definately been a pleasure to witness you're posting style in all it's glory |
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shnozlak
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: pushing crates in the sewer level
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:13 pm |
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| manmachine plays jazz wrote: |
| your ancient PC might be why this happens! |
I knew someone would make this idiotic statement. It doesn't matter how fast your PC is. Tons of ads will spike your web browser's CPU usage to 100%. Guaranteed. I know people with the newest rigs on Slashdot complain about it.
| Gironika wrote: |
| I see why Adobe wouldn't care in 2005, though four years later |
Are we 2009 yet?
| Quote: |
| Now that's surprising then. |
Not so surprising when you consider that Microsoft has been pushing 64-bit since Vista instead of doing a lazy job like they did with XP 64-bit.
| diplo wrote: |
| irregardless of what your being told by others benoitren it has definately been a pleasure to witness you're posting style in all it's glory |
You're intentionally breaking all the grammar rules to get some funny reaction out of me, right?
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:48 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
I knew someone would make this idiotic statement. It doesn't matter how fast your PC is. Tons of ads will spike your web browser's CPU usage to 100%. Guaranteed. I know people with the newest rigs on Slashdot complain about it. |
I can't remember which site used to cause such problems for me but one did - I actually only noticed this using debian at a friends place - never visited that site again and hence I can't remember which one it was.
| Quote: |
| Not so surprising when you consider that Microsoft has been pushing 64-bit since Vista instead of doing a lazy job like they did with XP 64-bit. |
I'd expect MS to keep on doing lazy 64-bit-stuff since you said it yourself, why bother about 5% market share? IE7 is a good example of how MS cares about things, heh.
| Gironika wrote: |
| Are we 2009 yet? |
If an official linux-64-bit-flash-plugin hits the web before 2009-01-01, I owe you a drink. Or a game. Or a ticket to the movies or whatever it is you want. So let's see how Adobe will release it out of the blue the next week to make me look like a fool, since that's usually the way things work if you are totally sure of something. Bookmark that site and quote me on this the day this happens!
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monaco
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Location: metrosexual, metrovania
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:11 am |
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| manmachine plays jazz wrote: |
| BenoitRen wrote: |
Your web browser freezing at 100% CPU because of a ton of Flash ads and an embedded Flash video is sexy? I beg to differ. Hurray for Adblock Plus.
Though I don't even have Flash installed on my primary PC. I use a stand-alone Flash Player.
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your ancient PC might be why this happens! |
mine sure is!
but yeah flash ads helped most interesting commercial news sites turn to unviewable shit
must see that wrath of the lick king intro rendered in full 280p splendor again oh joy |
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:41 pm |
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| That says more about the content designers than flash itself, though. Flash merely expanded the possibilities in general, and thus the subsection of bad web design expanded as well. |
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:25 pm |
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That's only half of it. The other half is that Flash is a bit slow because it has to interpret the ActionScript and render it all without much of hardware acceleration.
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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haze
la belle poney sans merci
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:22 pm |
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I don't care about open standards, but Flash really is very stupid.
| Spigot wrote: |
| I've worked at Apple, Adobe, Netscape, Macromedia - each at a time when Internet content tools were empowering young people to focus their energy into hideous, noisy creations that went nowhere. Dumb animation, or glorified movie credits. My job at each of these places was to do the builds: to distill all the engineers' code into the actual application (the Netscape browser, Flash 5, etc). I'm intimately familiar with just how poor the DNA of these structures is. I can offer accurate, elegant reasons why people should not waste time developing online content for certain platforms. In many ways, I'm ashamed to have been part of these companies. I feel like a Nazi doctor hiding his past. |
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:53 pm |
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re: the flash is free argument
no it isn't. I mean, you don't pay for the plugin, but you're not free to make content for it, modify the plugin etc. Zero cost is not the same as free. It's some black box intruder on your desktop. It bothers me a lot, it keeps me awake at night, grinding my teeth and popping prozac like reese's pieces, this application that's spread across the Internet like a fucking wildfire but costs a good deal of money to have access to. It shouldn't be here.
That said, I stand by everything else I've said in this thread one hundred per cent. |
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