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another coma
NeoGAF Reject
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: the wrong museum
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 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:12 pm |
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| Moogs wrote: |
| B coma wrote: |
| They'll probably just extend the viewable area horizontally for the PSP version, as stretching it would be downright criminal of them. |
Did you see how Konami handled the Gradius Collection? Either you played the game stretched out and blurred or you played it with black borders on every side of the screen.
Not saying they'll do the same here, but... |
well you have two precedents, I guess? konami's suikoden 1+2 on the PSP stretched the viewable area in such a way, so I'm assuming it isn't SO HARD unless they're just looking to make the cheapest cash in possible.
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Leau
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Metro City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:25 pm |
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So many questions.
But what is a game? Just a miserable pile of secrets.
I guess we'll have to wait untill it's released to find out. Still; I'm stoaked.
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SplashBeats
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:11 pm |
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| Leau, every time I see one of your posts, I think you are Rud13. |
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Hot Stott Bot
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:12 pm |
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| BotageL wrote: |
Well, remember, 'high resolution, two-dimensional artwork" is one of those things that is very simple to do in principle but requires a lot of work in practice. For something HD-resolution, you're basically animating a cartoon entirely out of re-usable and flexible frames of character and object animation. Certainly, this is hardly an unfamiliar concept (Hanna Barbera, anyone?), but one needs to consider that for a videogame this is still a hell of a lot of work. Unlike in three-dimensional graphics, you can't adjust a camera angle or get another view of a character/object without drawing (or re-drawing) the frames involved. Depending on how high your resolution is, how fluid you want the animation to be, and how many actions a character or object can take, this can mean that you're drawing a hell of a lot of stuff. In the event that somewhere along the line the character's design gets changed (perhaps the focus of the game is shifted, or new designs make him redundant), all the work done on the animation has to be thrown out and restarted unless.
You can do all this and make an awesome-looking 2D game, that's for certain. But nobody is ever going to do this because nobody wants to spend the kind of money it would take to do it right and hope it will sell. You'd pretty much have to hire an animation studio or two to draw all of your graphics (hell, I'm pretty sure Arc System Works did for the GGXX games), and quality 2D animation isn't that cheap. There's just no way to be certain that the market would really eat up a beautiful high-definition two-dimensional videogame at this point. |
Yeah, but this isn't any different from standard definition is my point. When you draw a picture on a piece of paper or a tablet, it is already higher than HD resolution. For the old SD games, they just downsampled to SD. Now they can downsample to HD.
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| The one point I am honestly curious about is how well a modern console could handle a game with high-res 2D art created in entirely in vectors. I'd imagine that the memory usage for, say, a 720p fighting game would be pretty ridiculous if you were going to keep each frame in memory as a bitmap. |
It could handle it easily.
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| Y'know, I'm not entirely sure what my point was anymore, or how much sense the above makes. I guess I'm trying to say that no, high-def does have everything to do with it, because nobody will spend the money required to do it right. |
Uuuh once again. How is high-def any different from standard-def if your graphics are already higher resolution than high-def in the first place (i.e., drawn).
In other words:
Nobody would spend the money for standard-def either -- because of 3D, not anything else. |
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sethsez
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:50 pm |
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| Hot Stott Bot wrote: |
| Uuuh once again. How is high-def any different from standard-def if your graphics are already higher resolution than high-def in the first place (i.e., drawn). |
The number of frames required for smooth-looking animation. With SNES style graphics, you can get things looking pretty decent with five or so frames of animation for, say, running. That shit don't fly at higher resolutions. It's still just as easy to make individual frames, but you need a hell of a lot more of them overall. |
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:04 am |
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| Hot Stott Bot wrote: |
| Yeah, but this isn't any different from standard definition is my point. When you draw a picture on a piece of paper or a tablet, it is already higher than HD resolution. For the old SD games, they just downsampled to SD. Now they can downsample to HD. |
You have not spent much time looking at low-resolution videogame sprites, have you? If you just drew a graphic in high resolution and then simply resized it, it would look terrible. You'd end up with a billion extra shades of color added that you'd have to cut to fit your limit (remember than in the Bad Old Days you often had less than 16 colors a sprite to work with, and even newer 2D engines like MUGEN have a 256-color limit for each individual sprite). And that's assuming your graphics program did one of those fancy, high-color-depth scales, and not just a pixel resize. Sprite work is not as easy as you make it sound.
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| Uuuh once again. How is high-def any different from standard-def if your graphics are already higher resolution than high-def in the first place (i.e., drawn). |
Easy - because it takes up vastly more memory, requires large amounts more effort to get the animation to look high-quality enough to be visually impressive, and it's less flexible to change than 3D assets are.
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Hot Stott Bot
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:09 am |
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| BotageL wrote: |
| Hot Stott Bot wrote: |
| Yeah, but this isn't any different from standard definition is my point. When you draw a picture on a piece of paper or a tablet, it is already higher than HD resolution. For the old SD games, they just downsampled to SD. Now they can downsample to HD. |
You have not spent much time looking at low-resolution videogame sprites, have you? If you just drew a graphic in high resolution and then simply resized it, it would look terrible. You'd end up with a billion extra shades of color added that you'd have to cut to fit your limit (remember than in the Bad Old Days you often had less than 16 colors a sprite to work with, and even newer 2D engines like MUGEN have a 256-color limit for each individual sprite). And that's assuming your graphics program did one of those fancy, high-color-depth scales, and not just a pixel resize. Sprite work is not as easy as you make it sound. |
Oh that's true.
But that sort of thing already died around the time people started doing 480p at 16- and 24-bit color (PS2 era).
There aren't really those technical limitations on modern consoles anymore either.
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| Uuuh once again. How is high-def any different from standard-def if your graphics are already higher resolution than high-def in the first place (i.e., drawn). |
Easy - because it takes up vastly more memory |
Not really an issue. The technical problems are easy.
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| requires large amounts more effort to get the animation to look high-quality enough to be visually impressive |
Tough to say I think.
I'd say it is definitely true in the jump from older systems to the current-gen, but I'm not convinced the current-gen to the next-gen would be a signifcant change.
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| and it's less flexible to change than 3D assets are |
In a sense... |
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Hot Stott Bot
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:12 am |
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| sethsez wrote: |
| Hot Stott Bot wrote: |
| Uuuh once again. How is high-def any different from standard-def if your graphics are already higher resolution than high-def in the first place (i.e., drawn). |
The number of frames required for smooth-looking animation. With SNES style graphics, you can get things looking pretty decent with five or so frames of animation for, say, running. That shit don't fly at higher resolutions. It's still just as easy to make individual frames, but you need a hell of a lot more of them overall. |
Yeah, I definitely agree with you on the jump from the SNES, but I look at something like the effort required to make a decent PS2 game in full 2D (say, GGXX) and don't see much of a jump to making one in HD. |
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:16 am |
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| Hot Stott Bot wrote: |
Oh that's true.
But that sort of thing already died around the time people started doing 480p at 16- and 24-bit color (PS2 era).
There aren't really those technical limitations on modern consoles anymore either. |
It's still mostly impractical to just use colors willy-nilly like that, especially in a genre like the fighting game or an action game where you will be using the same sprite set with a variety of different color sets. It becomes very difficult to change the color scheme easily when you're dealing with Millions of Colors, and in all honestly, Millions of Colors add very little to most 2D graphics anyway.
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| Easy - because it takes up vastly more memory |
Not really an issue. The technical problems are easy. |
I dunno, man. Have YOU tried to shove hundreds of 720p-sized fighting game character sprites into memory lately? Especially ones using high-color-depth since that's apparently no longer a problem?
Setting aside the technical issues, it's still just flat out a lot of work for little reward, and that's the crux of the problem.
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Leau
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Metro City
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:25 am |
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| Joe wrote: |
| Leau, every time I see one of your posts, I think you are Rud13. |
lol. I know. I was worried about that. DRESSPHERE CHANGE!!!
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sawtooth
heh
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: flashback
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:14 am |
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isn't the problem of HD 2d artwork a matter of refining the pipeline?
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Setting aside the technical issues, it's still just flat out a lot of work for little reward, and that's the crux of the problem.
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that's what all spritework has always been, especially when going the scan/shrink/cleanup/color route. modern technology gives us the opportunity to cut a few corners (just as long as everything is planned ahead), and the time and resources it takes to make art assets probably don't change a lot in the end.
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Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:13 am |
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Ugh. I've been trying my best to avoid returning to this topic, but it looks like things have turned out in such a way that I have no choice in the matter.
This is a betrayal, and that's really the only sane way to treat it. Konami is backstabbing everybody who has been faithfully following the Castlevania series along it's logical and sensible path. If you can't see that fans are getting the short end of the stick - getting beaten with the stick - then I don't know what to say. You obviously aren't grasping the fullness of Konami's "haha, screw you guys".
Really, though, it's not that nobody cares about the PSP, but that nobody who owns the PSP cares about 2D - or Konami....with the obvious exception of slavish Metal Gear fanatics and obstinate shooter fans who won't look any place else for a fix. And the game can't come to DS, because as many have pointed out, the system simply doesn't have the graphical capabilities for it.
As for the supposed "pre-alpha" excuse, both you and I know that's a bunch of rubbish. If this is all that the Castlevania teams have to show for working since the Japanese release of Portrait of Ruin, then we can bet we won't see any great leaps in quality when this game finally comes out later this year. This is a dud in the making and there's no two ways about it.
As for people outside Konami porting SOTN, it doesn't matter - IGA is going to fuck with it anyways. I'm sure you've already heard that he's stated flat-out that the game won't have the extras from the Saturn version, which he despires, and he's hinted at adding his own brand of "extras" to it instead. He's grown fat and paranoid about the series, and it's finally starting to take it's toll in a way even I can't deny.
Finally, what could possibly make you think they're going to emulate it? Everything so far indicates a direct - and developmentally disabled - port. I don't know where you get your info from, but it can't be accurate.
Why is everyone posting in the wrong topic?
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Rud31
forum ruler of Iraq
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: SanAnTex
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:22 am |
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| Leau wrote: |
| Joe wrote: |
| Leau, every time I see one of your posts, I think you are Rud13. |
lol. I know. I was worried about that. DRESSPHERE CHANGE!!! |
what?
EDIT: Oh ok. Thanks LW.
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SplashBeats
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:38 am |
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His old avatar was the Protoman card from Cardfighters DS.
DAIS, "everything so far"? We've seen a video of what is clearly an alpha version of the remake, some character art, and nothing else. Despite how lazy the IGA guys are with actually game design, they always seem to put together well-playing games. Portrait was a bit buggy, but there have been buggier pieces of software.
You're playing the angry fanboy card and saying a lot of silly things :( |
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:45 am |
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so, a bit of new stuff.
the version of sotn will be the ps1 version, but with some additions that igarashi apparently has been wanting to include.
the rob remake will have a more involved storyline (lol), as well as a new stage. we'll get to see how iga's team works with the more restricted mobility. |
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dongle
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Berkeley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:58 am |
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| Joe wrote: |
| Despite how lazy the IGA guys are with actually game design, they always seem to put together well-playing games. Portrait was a bit buggy, but there have been buggier pieces of software. |
I agree. We can blame IGA for laziness and wasted potential, but they haven't made anything crappy yet. Their products may be crappy as compared to what should be made, crappy as compared to what was expected, but the games are, at worst, inoffensive and vaguely fun.
Castlevania is still doing significantly better than the Sonic and Mega Man franchises (though MM seems to be getting its act somewhat together again).
I will probably buy this game just so I feel less guilty about playing my ROB iso. |
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boagman
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:00 am |
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| Dark Age Iron Savior wrote: |
| Really, though, it's not that nobody cares about the PSP, but that nobody who owns the PSP cares about 2D - or Konami....with the obvious exception of slavish Metal Gear fanatics and obstinate shooter fans who won't look any place else for a fix. |
Wow. I'm not sure how much more fervently I can disagree with this statement.
I bought my PSP with two (2) *very* distinct reasons in mind:
1. Ultimate Ghosts and Goblins was coming out, and I wasn't going to be denied this (decidedly 2D) experience from Capcom. Nor was I disappointed when I got it, either.
2. I can emulate the best things for portable play for the first time, and by that I mean things like Neo-Geo titles, other arcade ROMs, and what-have-you, all on a gorgeous screen.
In point of fact, I couldn't (and don't) really give a rat's patoot about 3D. Yes, I did buy MG:PO, but haven't touched it *near* as much as UG&G, EEE, and at least one other title that escapes me at the moment. Yes, I'm just nothing but a 3D-worshipping mouth-breather, aren't I?
You feel betrayed...I can understand that. I haven't really read the rest of the thread to understand your exact reasons for feeling so, but whatever they are, you only serve to undermine your credibility with inaccurate, blanket statements such as this. |
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dongle
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Berkeley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:04 am |
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| Dark Age Iron Savior wrote: |
Finally, what could possibly make you think they're going to emulate it? Everything so far indicates a direct - and developmentally disabled - port. I don't know where you get your info from, but it can't be accurate.
Why is everyone posting in the wrong topic? |
The existence of a full-speed PSX emulator for PSP made by Sony themselves would hint that emulating SotN might be a good option.
Also, regarding high-def 2D, note that source material has to be a LOT cleaner and is significantly more time-consuming to touch up. I think vectors and cell-shading are going to be the most efficient ways to produce high-def 2D visuals.
And I find it a stretch to say that no one cares about 2d with the PSP. It has a great GGXX port, SFA3, Disgaea, Generations of Chaos, Tales games, etc. |
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showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:24 am |
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| Dark Age Iron Savior wrote: |
As for the supposed "pre-alpha" excuse, both you and I know that's a bunch of rubbish. If this is all that the Castlevania teams have to show for working since the Japanese release of Portrait of Ruin, then we can bet we won't see any great leaps in quality when this game finally comes out later this year. This is a dud in the making and there's no two ways about it. |
I don't know if its a dud in the making, but the one growing feature of IGA's work is its lack of innate quality, in that the games just aren't as polished as before. This shows itself in the recent Castlevanias in terms of lazy level design and over-use of old art assets or concepts. I've already said I think either the teams producing these games no longer care as much or don't have the amount of production time they had when the series was at its height, but either way its a rational idea that the lazy stuff we're pointing out now will there when the game is at retail (aside from obvious things such as lack of sound effects). I personally like how the 3D version looks so far but it isn't up to Konami's former bad ass standards.
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| I'm sure you've already heard that he's stated flat-out that the game won't have the extras from the Saturn version, which he despires, and he's hinted at adding his own brand of "extras" to it instead. |
Remember when IGA used to talk shit in every interview about everyone else who'd made Castlevania games since Symphony of the Night besides him? About how terrible the N64 games were? It seems like he's gotten a lot quiter since Lament and COD came out (not to mention Nanobreaker, which was kind of enjoyable until the second half, when it was clear they had run out of things to do with the extremely limited gameplay...) |
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Renfrew
catchy, and giger-esque
Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Location: Hometown: America
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:41 am |
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| Yeah, I remember some interview where somebody asked him about the N64 games and he said something about how they were "as far from Symphony of the Night as you could get." |
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