selectbutton
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile / Ignoring   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Demon's Souls
Goto page
// Prev  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10 ... 75, 76, 77  Next

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    selectbutton Forum Index -> King of Posters
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
schild



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:37 am        Reply with quote

LandRoverAttack wrote:
Well, depends! The US will have its own servers, supposedly not interacting with the other versions.


Where'd you hear this? As far as I know this isn't true, unless it was very recently changed.

Quote:
If there are people you want to play with, you'd need the same version (can you request certain players be summoned to your world? I don't even know if this is possible).


AFAIK, all 4 versions will be able to play together, part of the reason they're doing so many bugfix patches right now. Every version will need to be patched to the US release version.

Quote:
Still, the US version will have some arty extras, which is neato.

Thoughts?


Uh, not that I know of.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
analogos
bravely default crying fairy


Joined: 10 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:59 am        Reply with quote

I think he just means the pre-order artbook or whatever, not in-game content.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
EU03



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:08 am        Reply with quote

http://www.atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3966

Quote:
One question we’ve been repeatedly asked is whether the North American release of the game will share servers with the Asian versions, and we finally have an answer. Much as the Japanese and Asian versions are hosted on separate servers, the North American release will receive all new servers.

Why not use the same servers? Well, the game’s online system does not allow for friend lists; it’s all handled by the game, so it really doesn’t make much sense to burden a single server with so many players, because you’ll be playing with new adventurers every time. Believe us: once you try the online in Demon’s Souls, you’ll wish more games were set up the same way.

_________________
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
belthegor



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: NY

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:47 am        Reply with quote

Hey guys, look what's up for preorder!
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders


Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:08 pm        Reply with quote

Quote:
Why not use the same servers? Well, the game’s online system does not allow for friend lists; it’s all handled by the game, so it really doesn’t make much sense to burden a single server with so many players, because you’ll be playing with new adventurers every time. Believe us: once you try the online in Demon’s Souls, you’ll wish more games were set up the same way.


you know, I try not to fault PR departments their "this is totally for the best and there's no reason to suspect we have ulterior motives" hand-waving, but it feels kind of like being lied to by someone you trust when Atlus does it
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate


Joined: 23 Apr 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:53 pm        Reply with quote

That pre-order is how much it cost me after shipping to purchase the game in May from yes-asia.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lick Meth



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: A constant state of flux

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:31 pm        Reply with quote

I waited forever for this, and now I'm finally playing it! And I'm completely lost, for 9 pages worth of stuff that'll just confuse me. So, help me here:

- what's the advantage of having the "live" body as opposed to being a soul? Except for the half health thing.
- where do I start/continue? So far I've beaten a big blob boss, but the giant knight after that keeps beating me up (on the first level, I think).
- any recommended strategies or weapons at the start?

Good times and all.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
another god



Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:42 pm        Reply with quote

Use the wiki. Google search for Demon's Souls wiki, and you should have a good start.

Don't worry too much about having a body. Having a body lets you summon other people into your game, but then people can also barge into your world too to kill you. Double edged sword. Real exciting though.

Outside of that, play to your style. I liked blocking and retaliating with a heavy shield and a spear. My roommate liked being quicker rolling in with a dagger. I beat 2-1, 5-1, 4-1, 1-2, 3-1 in that order. Of course, that's after a lot of exploration and dying and leveling. I leveled up a lot in 2-1 helping other people beat the boss a lot.
_________________
interdimensional
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
NeoEsZ



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:49 am        Reply with quote

Guys, I'm selling the full english asian version, mint condition, 50 bucks :D private message me or email me at plasticnerves@gmail.com

im leaving town soon, so i need funds and to pay off some other things.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
LandRoverAttack



Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Location: sagamihara, kanagawa

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:01 pm        Reply with quote

Bumping this thread as the US release is getting imminent. This is probably my most anticipated release of the year. I've convinced at least one friend to pick up a PS3 on Oct. 6, and used this game as incentive for another to get a PS3 over the summer. Demon's Souls is showing some tremendous power over people.

I have this thread to thank for the froth.

I hope the strategy guide in the LE doesn't spoil too much, as I haven't really read enough to get terribly spoiled yet. Perhaps I should hold off on reading it until I get through the game once? Or is it like Monster Hunter in that I need the wealth of information to fully enjoy it as it is far too frustrating otherwise?
_________________
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
zombieman000



Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Location: A.D. 2219

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:08 pm        Reply with quote

I kind of want to say that some parts would be too frustrating to enjoy without a guide, but a lot of the fun here is in figuring things out on your own. (yeah not a clear answer) I would try to use the guide only for bosses you're having trouble with.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
jakten



Joined: 02 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:15 pm        Reply with quote

I'm loving this game so much, especially now that I'm further into it I can't put the damned thing down. I'm surprised you've gotten people interested, anyone I have told about it watched a video and decided it was generic and far too slow-paced and basically don't even want to take another glance at it.

Anyways the main point of my post, I was wondering has anyone heard anything else about the DLC?

I'm also curious if anyone knows if the NA version can use the Asian versions save files or can play with each other online. Because I kind of want to pick up the NA version and sell my asian version but i don't want to lose my save files on the other hand I'm noticing on the asian version not very many people play anymore. So I'd like to witness what it was like when the asian version was first released.
_________________
T U M B L R
T W I T T E R

Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
zombieman000



Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Location: A.D. 2219

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:56 pm        Reply with quote

So far there's been no news of DLC. No explanations for that broken archstone. The NA and Asian version save files aren't compatible with each other, and the NA version will use new servers separate from the Asian ones.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
username



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: parts unknown

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:24 am        Reply with quote

I think checking the parts of the guide that explain how to be able to upgrade weapons and such would be a good thing to check out as they at times would be somewhat tricky to figure out on one's own, but I would avoid the stage-specific parts as you probably wouldn't want those details spoiled for you.
_________________
http://www.audioatrocities.com/games/castlevania-sotn/clip1.mp3
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
LandRoverAttack



Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Location: sagamihara, kanagawa

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:17 pm        Reply with quote

username wrote:
I think checking the parts of the guide that explain how to be able to upgrade weapons and such would be a good thing to check out as they at times would be somewhat tricky to figure out on one's own, but I would avoid the stage-specific parts as you probably wouldn't want those details spoiled for you.


Yeah this sounds pretty reasonable. Thanks, and thanks zombieman too. I'll probably bust it out if a boss is kicking my ass, too.

As far as getting friends interested, I don't know if any of them have actually seen a video of it yet, haha. I just hyped it up pretty well. It's worth mentioning that a lot of these are the same friends I got hooked on Monster Hunter, which I have used as a comparison to great effect.

For the most part we are all going in very blind. I think I've only seen one gameplay video, myself. I'm hoping to get a few of us together to play it side-by-side, and maybe engineer some co-op? Though that might be hard to do at first, when there is a lot more competition for souls...
_________________
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
belthegor



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: NY

PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:32 pm        Reply with quote

I've beaten the asian version numerous times and I plan on getting right back into the game again once the US version is out. Keep an eye out for me online come October 6th. PSN ID: belthegor
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
km



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Minor character in a frame story

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:11 am        Reply with quote

This game does not explain hardly anything. Like uh, how do I save and quit without losing all of my souls? It's pretty stupid that the game tells you things like press R1 to attack (which is in the manual... I can read, thanks) but doesn't tell you that you have to clear the first area of the first world to do any levelling up or why your health bar can only be filled half way.


Messages are really fun, and I've already seen bloodstains turn into weird little bits of performance art inside the Nexus.
_________________

vi) RPGs (Role-Playing Games)
For adolescents; half-formed personalities roaming (in packs) in search of identity.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jakten



Joined: 02 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:08 am        Reply with quote

You can walk back to the Archstone at the beginning of the level or you can collect and use a Splinter of Keystone or a Nexial binding (using this you will lose souls though) The game automatically saves so if you mess something up its done. I'm pretty sure you can quit the game anywhere and return to where you left off. I've only ever done so in the nexus so I'm not sure how it works in a level.

I thought it did tell you that when you die and become a soul your health is halved. There are a lot of things that it doesn't tell you though but it's kind of nice to figure stuff out on your own, at least for me. I'm almost 3/4 of the way through the game and just realized I could use the Demons Souls to get stronger magic, miracles and weapons. I thought I had to save them for something. I think a lot of confusion for me comes from having the Asian version though. I was really confused by the Soldier souls telling me I would be turned into a soul when I consumed them. I thought it would resurrect me...
_________________
T U M B L R
T W I T T E R

Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
SuperWes



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:56 pm        Reply with quote

It took me 2 hours, but I beat the first level last night. This is an interesting game. Without the challenge it would be horrible, but the way it's laid out and the excellent help system make it something that I think I'll actually play. I will say that the level design is outstanding.

I kind of wish there were a bit more direction though. I have no idea what to do with a majority of the items I've found.

-Wes
_________________
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
gooktime



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: no

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:31 pm        Reply with quote

Quote:
This game does not explain hardly anything. Like uh, how do I save and quit without losing all of my souls?


you don't need to worry about that (it auto saves a lot)

Quote:
I thought it did tell you that when you die and become a soul your health is halved.


yeah... and it makes a point of forcing the cling-ring on you (increases health when dead to 75%) halfway through 1-1
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
km



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Minor character in a frame story

PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:48 pm        Reply with quote

I figured those things out but I had to work it out on my own. It wasn't a fun oh hey I figured this out it was I've played this for a few hours and hey I need to do something else now. Everything I had read about the game being brutal made me worry that I was going to have wasted all my time because I didn't do the right thing when I needed to stop playing. I'm not a fan of hand-holding, but I think those things are crucial enough that they at least deserve a mention in the manual.

By excellent help system, wes, do you mean the messages other players leave or what?
_________________

vi) RPGs (Role-Playing Games)
For adolescents; half-formed personalities roaming (in packs) in search of identity.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:05 am        Reply with quote

man fucking gamestops around me all being old out of this. i will be tracking it down tomorrow.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Dracko
a sapphist fool


Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:15 am        Reply with quote

If I had a PS3, I'd be all over this.
_________________
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
SuperWes



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:37 am        Reply with quote

km wrote:
By excellent help system, , do you mean the messages other players leave or what?

Yep. Like you, I have no idea how to play the game. I still don't know how to leave messages for people.

Still good though.

-Wes
_________________
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
secret character



Joined: 12 Jul 2008

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:05 am        Reply with quote

BROTIP: press the Select Button to leave/recommend messages.

I feel like I've got a decent handle on how the game works. A little bit is prior knowledge, like knowing that recommending a message gives the author health, but I honestly don't think I came in knowing that much that I didn't get from the manual or the tutorial.

I think I've made it especially difficult on myself, however, by choosing a barbarian to start with ("for the challenge"). I struggled my way past the first boss. I'm dying a lot, but it's still pretty fun.
_________________
☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹
☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹

☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Cryo



Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Columbia, MD

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:06 am        Reply with quote

Wes, walk around the opening Nexus area. There is a hallway that is filled with helpful in-game tips, such as how to leave messages for people (hit Select). Here's hoping to see you in-game as a blue phantom, or on the tip of my spear.
_________________
PS3 - Cryoh
X360 - Cryoh
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
km



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Minor character in a frame story

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:29 am        Reply with quote

This game is brutal. I feel like I am being severely punished for trying new things. I have literally wasted 4 hours of my life with nothing to show for it except some extra healing herbs. I don't know if it's my dude or what but it takes FOREVER to recover from... anything. Healing takes so long it's more likely to get you killed than helping you. I have died because the landing animation pushed my character off the ledge, losing 5000 souls in the process. One of the REALLY frustrating things is that until you beat the first part, you have no way to "store" your souls, even if they're just as stat increases. I feel like I'm losing so much every time the game pulls what I feel is some serious bullshit and I die on the way to my bloodstain.
_________________

vi) RPGs (Role-Playing Games)
For adolescents; half-formed personalities roaming (in packs) in search of identity.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Cryo



Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Columbia, MD

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:34 am        Reply with quote

I won't lie, the game is hella brutal and scary during the first level, since you can't put your souls away into stats for safekeeping. However, I can't wait until I get back from work in the morning so I can subject myself to the sweet, sweet torture. Makes me feel like a sub.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
another god



Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:50 am        Reply with quote

Yeah, pretty much.

Don't know if you knew much about the game other than it was a "gamer's game". But it's brutal. It's not Godhand brutal, it's more lingering. Terrifying. But very upfront about it.

Be patient, look for opportunities. If you don't see one, go exploring. Figure out what makes you stronger. There's a lot to the first level, and you can get pretty strong outside of "leveling". If you can figure out how to run a route consistently, you can even start buying decent gear (though not gear you're likely to use for much of the rest of the game).

Thinking about it, early grinding won't really help your gear much, but it does help refine your skills for the rest of the game...
_________________
interdimensional
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
username



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: parts unknown

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:59 am        Reply with quote

The game is brutal early on but manageable if you take your time, and once you get used to how the game works while it can be hard it is rarely as terrifying.
_________________
http://www.audioatrocities.com/games/castlevania-sotn/clip1.mp3
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
SuperWes



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:31 pm        Reply with quote

Alright. I spent 2 hours this morning and made no progress. Out of curiosity:

1. How should I use my empty souls? Sell them or save them to use later for some reason?

2. I'm playing as a Warrior (I think). Should I buy magic? Which magic should I buy? Is this more important than buying levels?

3. Is this a game where buying armor is useful, or should I depend mostly on drops for my upgrades?

4. How do I know which level is which? The US version names levels instead of numbering them, so when you're talking about 2-1, etc. I have no idea what level you're referring to.

5. Do you have any other general hints?

I played through the beginning of a level where you start next to a bunch of planks, but I kept falling off so I stopped. I started a different level where you run through a room full of slaves and fight a bunch of dogs, but I died there right away too. Then I tried 1-2 and think I made it pretty far, but I ended up dying thanks to inconsistent dragon fire. It's frustrating for sure, but it's not unfair.

I think the biggest problem I have with this game is one of time. It's hard for me to devote several hours to a game at once, but without a few hours it's impossible to make any real progress. I realize this is a personal problem, but I can see myself dropping the game based on that despite the fact that it's really very good.

-Wes
_________________
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
another god



Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:07 pm        Reply with quote

1. Use the souls however you like. If your goal is on "beating" the game, I suggest going for a heavy shield/winged spear route. You can either go for heavy armor or healing (or both, as was my case. I also grinded 2-1 a lot), so adjust your stats accordingly. Really, you can't go wrong as long as you "hit" the parts you need (e.g. heavy shield/winged spear for me. Some people like to do ranged... depends on your starting character).

2. Be smart! Magic will help you heal, but if you have a lot of potions, why bother? Though, if you don't have a lot of potions...

3. Buying gear is something I never did, but I also explored a lot. The armory is there for you to buy gear if you a) explore AND b) don't find anything. And if you don't want to pay for Soul Levels.

4. The Asian version also named everything. 1 is Boletarian Palace, 2 is the mines, 3 is the prison, 4 is the ruins, and 5 is the swamp. It goes in left to right order. The second number (2 in 1-2) is the level in that world.

5. Feel out the game. Use the wiki! The wiki is your best friend! In fact, read this thread. There's a link to the wiki and the discussion we had on the game earlier.
_________________
interdimensional
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
8128



Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Location: a very very very fine house

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:12 pm        Reply with quote

I assume you mean the souls you have as items in your inventory. You can use those but you should save the ones you get from bosses.
_________________
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Tlon



Joined: 25 Sep 2008

PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:59 pm        Reply with quote

http://www.metafilter.com/85680/Demons-Souls
_________________
Someday somethings coming
From way out beyond the stars
To kill us while we stand here
It will store our brains in mason jars
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
secret character



Joined: 12 Jul 2008

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:34 am        Reply with quote

So after running up against a wall as a barbarian, I decided to switch classes. With my new hunter, I got as far as I was with my barbarian in a single try (that is, no deaths), and in some ways even farther. I might come back to the barbarian eventually, but it's really too much for me right now.
_________________
☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹
☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹

☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate


Joined: 23 Apr 2007

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:13 am        Reply with quote

Seeing lots of positive buzz about this game around the web. Forums and actual games sites alike. Hopefully its translating into decent sales.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Rud31
forum ruler of Iraq


Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: SanAnTex

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:45 am        Reply with quote

I ordered this off of amazon and I think my crazy mother stole my order.
_________________
My Hawt Blog Vita Games

THERE ARE DEFINITELY WORSE VIDEO GAME PODCASTS
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:00 pm        Reply with quote

So I almost beat my second boss alst night as a soldier. He's a pretty badass little dude.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
zombieman000



Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Location: A.D. 2219

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:08 pm        Reply with quote

Royal is the easy mode class :(
Just equip the fragrant ring to regenerate magic juice, hang back and shoot soul arrows at everything.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
Bennett



Joined: 03 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:31 pm        Reply with quote

zombieman000 wrote:
Royal is the easy mode class :(
Just equip the fragrant ring to regenerate magic juice, hang back and shoot soul arrows at everything.


It's always fun when you meet someone like this in PvP, because you can always dodge-roll a soul arrow. Then you sprint up to them and gut them six times with a dagger until they die.
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
LandRoverAttack



Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Location: sagamihara, kanagawa

PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:35 pm        Reply with quote

Oh man this game. I have loved everything about it since I got it Tuesday. I will get into it really heavy this weekend. I started as a Wanderer and have not delved into magic or miracles at all, and it's really challenging. It hits all the right notes with me.

I want to do PvP but at the moment stand no chance! Without exception, everyone I end up invading has a full set of heavy armor, a giant tower shield, and a spear or big sword (my friend has had the same experience, and has spent much more time on the game, including invading). I have been sticking with small shield and light armor and messing around with different swords, and I just don't think there's a way I could do enough damage to these guys! Especially when there they have another buddy soul around, wow! But it's always tense and exciting, and I don't seem to lose anything for dying so it's not a problem.

Will be on much this weekend!
_________________
Filter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Quick Reply
 Attach signature
 Notify on replies

Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    selectbutton Forum Index -> King of Posters All times are GMT
Goto page
// Prev  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10 ... 75, 76, 77  Next
Page 9 of 77

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group