|
View previous topic :: View next topic
|
| Author |
Message |
Rucio
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: oh HIGH oh
|
 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:29 pm |
  |
|
Videogames are not high art yet. The problem is the medium. It takes a decent budget and skilled programmers, as well as creative staff and a competent director.
And then there is the question of input by the player and how that input might distort the creator's vision of the videogame. Would the end result be the true work of art, or would the creator's vision be that work?
Also, mundane things can be used as art, or in an artful fashion. Speed runs of Mario 3 (fake as they may be) reflect that perfect unattainable that people tend to admire.
Videogames are rewarding as hell to me. New gear in WoW is meaningless but cause for celebration nonetheless, perhaps for the reason that videogames these days are made with the player succeeding in mind, while real life discourages success.
_________________
"Say, that's a nice fez!"
"Thank you very much. Why do you like it?"
"It's better than a sharp stick in the eye." |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:01 pm |
|
|
| Eric-Jon Rössel Waugh wrote: |
Best solution, if you're a concerned film director: tell your kid that, on a daily basis, he can't play a game for longer than the length of an average movie. Then he has to go do something constructive for an equal length of time. Perhaps analyze what he got out of the experience, in some medium or another.
And there we go. |
Or just don't let him play video games at all
voila
Now you are Michael Gondry and your scion will be prince of the world |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
dmauro
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Broker
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:02 pm |
|
|
Talking about videogames can't be worse than playing them. If you are on a forum talking about them, then you are engaging in a discourse, learning, etc etc. If you rebuke that by saying it's worthless because you're only talking about videogames, then you're criticizing videogames, not posting on a forum about them.
Anyways, he's mostly right. That's why it's best to only go to sb.net at work and only play videogames on the subway, beyond the few exceptions, if you're interested in staying away from things that are "not very fulfilling."
That funny thing is that most of Gondry's work is only about as rewarding as playing a decently cute videogame.
_________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:20 pm |
|
|
| IceTyger wrote: |
| I'm trying to think of something cool to say about the idea of games as a sporting event, but I keep thinking of them as a mixed martial arts tourney where I'm trying to use fifty styles all at once. |
Check out "There’s More to Gaming than Just Gaming" by Erica L. Van Ostrand in issue 7 of The Gamer's Quarter.
| Rucio wrote: |
| Videogames are not high art yet. |
Depends on what you consider "high art" and how you want to argue it. There are a few museums which display videogames and videogame related items. It could be argued that this constitutes them as high art.
| insertcredit.com wrote: |
| A new museum in japan is putting on an exhibit of the japanese power of expression, and naturally this includes games. Game Watch has a small report of the section, complete with images. It's only running til the 4th, so if you're in japan and interested, now's the time to go. They have some playable stuff (including space invaders), but it's mostly just sterile stuff for looking at on white columns. Not quite as cool as the TV Game Museum we mentioned on July 17, 2004, but still rather nice. Thanks to shadowfamicom for mailing the link. |
_________________
The bad sleep well at The Gamer's Quarter |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:23 pm |
|
|
High art is art that thinks it shit so fly but it ain't
Really the only difference between high and low art is subjective pretense |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:25 pm |
|
|
Quick questions:
Can high art be funny?
If it can't, does that mean that high art is lacking in some way?
_________________
I can no longer shop happily. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
option
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:44 pm |
|
|
| Guys what is "Art"? |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:47 pm |
|
|
| option wrote: |
| Guys what is "Art"? |
“conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements”
and
“human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature”
_________________
The bad sleep well at The Gamer's Quarter |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
aerisdead
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:51 pm |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: |
| I hear that Shakespeare wrote a few comedies. |
I thought Shakespeare's stuff was lowest common denominator, crowd pleasing stuff?
_________________
"Did you read that mr. ignorant new games journalist? YOU JUST DON'T FUCKING GET IT. "
-Alex Kierkegaard, better known as "Pikachu", irrationally responding to the wonderful gentleman who wrote the post you just read. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:51 pm |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: |
| Predator Goose wrote: |
| Can high art be funny? |
I hear that Shakespeare wrote a few comedies. |
Which meant different things back then: IE that everyone didn't end the play raped up and murdered.
Art can be fucking hilarious. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:58 pm |
|
|
| Shapermc wrote: |
| option wrote: |
| Guys what is "Art"? |
“conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements”
and
“human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature” |
I don't think that definiton really works, as it can be applied to just about everything. I've got a water bottle I bought from Target on my desk that I wouldn't call art, but that definition reads on it.
Edit: And Shakespeare's comedies make my stomach turn. He can shove Merchant of Venice up his ass. But I never actually liked Shakespeare, so if you can laugh at it and find it high art then that answers my question.
Last edited by Predator Goose on Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:11 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
option
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:00 pm |
|
|
| JamesE wrote: |
Which meant different things back then: IE that everyone didn't end the play raped up and murdered.
|
The Romans had some pretty funny plays about dinner parties and cross-dressing.
| Shapermc wrote: |
| option wrote: |
| Guys what is "Art"? |
“conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements”
and
“human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature” |
At one point art used to just mean painting. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
dmauro
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Broker
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:06 pm |
|
|
I know you guys are just trying to be funny, but please, don't do this to yourselves.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:13 pm |
|
|
| JamesE wrote: |
| Shapermc wrote: |
| Predator Goose wrote: |
| Can high art be funny? |
I hear that Shakespeare wrote a few comedies. |
Which meant different things back then: IE that everyone didn't end the play raped up and murdered.
Art can be fucking hilarious. |
But can what people call "high art" be funny? I've only ever seen this rather pretentious term directed toward serious or disturbing pieces.
_________________
I can no longer shop happily. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:21 pm |
|
|
| You guys need to understand Dada ok |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
dmauro
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Broker
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:09 pm |
|
|
High art is paintings of pot leaves by high school kids.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:33 pm |
|
|
| aerisdead wrote: |
| Shapermc wrote: |
| I hear that Shakespeare wrote a few comedies. |
I thought Shakespeare's stuff was lowest common denominator, crowd pleasing stuff? |
It's funny how that ended up isn't it?
_________________
The bad sleep well at The Gamer's Quarter |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
aerisdead
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:37 pm |
|
|
_________________
"Did you read that mr. ignorant new games journalist? YOU JUST DON'T FUCKING GET IT. "
-Alex Kierkegaard, better known as "Pikachu", irrationally responding to the wonderful gentleman who wrote the post you just read. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
option
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:02 pm |
|
|
| aerisdead wrote: |
|
I remember a while ago some people were up in arms because a museum was showing that piece, but it wasnt the actual toilet used in Duchamp's original showing.
I wonder if they ever realized how ironic that was...
Also...
I like the idea of games as a sport more than the idea of games as a way of wasting time or tuning out of reality.
People who say "your playing games wrong" can get annoying, but I think there might be something there.
EDIT: all the ways I came up with to fleash out that idea were pretty bad. =/ |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:09 pm |
|
|
Museums are where art goes to die.
_________________
JSNLV is frequently and intentionally wrong. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Deets
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Shapermc
crawling in his skin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Chicago via St. Louis
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
SplashBeats
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:36 pm |
|
|
| We need more dada in our videogames. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
dmauro
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Broker
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:42 pm |
|
|
| Joe wrote: |
| We need more dada in our videogames. |
Videogames have barely established themselves. I don't think videogames need a destructive force, they just need more creativity.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Mr Mustache
Mean Mr. Mustache
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Bushwick
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:58 pm |
|
|
You guys should read Understanding Comics.
_________________
The people are like wool to me |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:59 pm |
|
|
| Mr Mustache wrote: |
| You guys should read Understanding Comics. |
No. Never again.
_________________
I can no longer shop happily. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
FortNinety
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: New York, New York
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:20 pm |
|
|
Why the vehement no?
_________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
shnozlak
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: pushing crates in the sewer level
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:42 pm |
|
|
Should we be thinking of games as art or should we be thinking of games as containing art?
Video games could I suppose be likened to an interactive installation where the gallery is your television.
I think the thing people choke on is the "art means something on purpose" issue. You know, that whole "Artist's statement" bullshit
_________________
Mixtapes galore ~ VG MUSIC
ᕦ(ň_óˇ)ᕤ http://phantom-photon.tumblr.com/ |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:47 pm |
|
|
| FortNinety wrote: |
| Why the vehement no? |
Because I thought it was a terrible book. As I recall I found it both misleading and full of itself.
_________________
I can no longer shop happily. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
FortNinety
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: New York, New York
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:53 pm |
|
|
Can you cite any specific examples? Not trying to bust your chops, but whenever any goes on record by saying they flat-out hate it, they never seem to offer many concrete/specific reasons.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:04 pm |
|
|
| FortNinety wrote: |
| Can you cite any specific examples? Not trying to must your chops, but whenever any goes on record by saying they flat-out hate it, they can never seem to offer many concrete/specific reasons. |
Understandable. And in this case as well I can't cite very specific examples. This is because my memory is for shit, especially where books are concerned, and I'd estimate that it's been at least 4 years since I've read the book. I'm not eager to revisit it just to provide reasons why I hate it to someone else (no offense intended).
The only vague thing that I can recall is that he seemed to often present his conclusions before he asked for the readers, and it felt like the book was leading you on.
_________________
I can no longer shop happily. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:08 pm |
|
|
| guys art is only the stuff i like all of you are wrong ok thx |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
FortNinety
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: New York, New York
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:10 pm |
|
|
| Predator Goose wrote: |
Understandable. And in this case as well I can't cite very specific examples. This is because my memory is for shit, especially where books are concerned, and I'd estimate that it's been at least 4 years since I've read the book. I'm not eager to revisit it just to provide reasons why I hate it to someone else (no offense intended).
The only vague thing that I can recall is that he seemed to often present his conclusions before he asked for the readers, and it felt like the book was leading you on. |
I can live with that. And to be honest, I really like the book, but I can understand why some might think its overrated.
But ultimately, it was the first of its kind, and very few to this day have attempted to cover the same territory, and for that, I have to respect it. Its also kind of sad... sort of how, and I know this is off-topic and highly debateable, but Watchmen was the last true high watermark for super hero comics and nothing has come close in the past twenty years. But you know, IMHO.
When many people bitch about the first McCloud book, it just comes off as sour grapes, as if they were pissed that they didn't think of it first. But it almost always works like that. I think its best for those who have no clue about comics in general, and some proof that it ain't just about Hulk smash. Again, it kinda deserves the acclaim that it gets.
Though I have heard nothing but bad things about his third book...
What was this thread about again? Gondry? A personal hero of mine, so its dissapointing to hear such thoughts, but hey... when you become a parent, a lot of opinions change/appear to be rather hardlined. A basic fact of life.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:24 pm |
|
|
| FortNinety wrote: |
| Predator Goose wrote: |
Understandable. And in this case as well I can't cite very specific examples. This is because my memory is for shit, especially where books are concerned, and I'd estimate that it's been at least 4 years since I've read the book. I'm not eager to revisit it just to provide reasons why I hate it to someone else (no offense intended).
The only vague thing that I can recall is that he seemed to often present his conclusions before he asked for the readers, and it felt like the book was leading you on. |
I can live with that. And to be honest, I really like the book, but I can understand why some might think its overrated.
But ultimately, it was the first of its kind, and very few to this day have attempted to cover the same territory, and for that, I have to respect it. Its also kind of sad... sort of how, and I know this is off-topic and highly debateable, but Watchmen was the last true high watermark for super hero comics and nothing has come close in the past twenty years. But you know, IMHO.
When many people bitch about the first McCloud book, it just comes off as sour grapes, as if they were pissed that they didn't think of it first. But it almost always works like that. I think its best for those who have no clue about comics in general, and some proof that it ain't just about Hulk smash. Again, it kinda deserves the acclaim that it gets.
Though I have heard nothing but bad things about his third book...
What was this thread about again? Gondry? A personal hero of mine, so its dissapointing to hear such thoughts, but hey... when you become a parent, a lot of opinions change/appear to be rather hardlined. A basic fact of life. |
The only issue that I really take with this post is that I don't evaluate whether I like something based on how influential it was, or if it was the first to do something. While I think those qualifications are important, I try to keep them separate from my opinion of a work.
Oh, and I can say that it wasn't sour grapes for me because I never intended to write what I thought about comic books, and because I recall I disagreed with a lot of his conclusions - though I still can't tell you why, or even recall what his conclusions were.
And I'll agree with your comment about 1986-1987 being the high water mark of the past 20 years. I haven't actually read Watchmen yet (know I should) but my personal favorit, Dark Knight Returns, came out in 1986 as well. The sequel to that book was good, but it didn't come near to the original. And it was oddly about Superman.
_________________
I can no longer shop happily. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Lurky
banned
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:49 pm |
|
|
| We should have a word filter substitute something in place for art, I propose 'Muchi-muchi banana plumsause' |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
SplashBeats
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:58 pm |
|
|
| Let's make this into our Official Muchi Muchi Pork! thread. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Mr Mustache
Mean Mr. Mustache
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Bushwick
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:03 pm |
|
|
| Mr Mustache wrote: |
| You guys should read Understanding Comics. |
_________________
The people are like wool to me |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:07 pm |
|
|
| Mr Mustache wrote: |
| Mr Mustache wrote: |
| You guys should read Understanding Comics. |
|
| Predator Goose wrote: |
| Mr Mustache wrote: |
| You guys should read Understanding Comics. |
No. Never again. |
_________________
I can no longer shop happily. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:18 pm |
|
|
Art is art. It has no definition, but you know it when you experience it.
_________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:22 pm |
|
|
| Talbain wrote: |
| Art is art. It has no definition, but you know it when you experience it. |
Then answer me this, if a man finds a sunise to be beautiful and a painting of a sunrise beatiful, which one does he call art?
If you're answer isn't both, then there must be a definition of art.
_________________
I can no longer shop happily. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
