selectbutton
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile / Ignoring   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Michel Gondry says that Games aren't Art.

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    selectbutton Forum Index -> King of Posters
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ben Reed



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: charge b, f + P

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:28 am        Reply with quote

I'd buy that video games are art in the "creative expression" sense but I don't know that I would call them art in the CONVENTIONAL sense, simply by virtue of the experience they impart onto the player is determined by ACTIVE PARTICIPATION -- by actively changing the state of the game in a way that will inevitably unique from someone else's experience -- but at the same time, their aesthetic experience, unlike a physical art form such as dancing or music, is not completely generated by the participant. Even if you're playing a cover song, you're doing it through the agent that is your own instrument, held in your own hands and controlled by you -- even if you pick up Brian May's own Red Special, the music coming from that guitar is ALL YOU unless you are Brian May himself.

Case in point: when two guys look at one of Michaelangelo's frescoes, they don't LITERALLY see completely different naked Greco-Roman people doing the pull-my-finger gag -- it's always God and Adam, and by definition you go from there. When two guys go to see Lord of the Rings at the same theater, one of them doesn't see a musical finale to the crumbling of Sauron's tower, excellently choreographed and with very impressive footwork on the part of Ian Holm as Bilbo.

But when they both sit down at different SNESes to play Super Mario World, their experiences in altering the initial state (i.e. the game without somebody at the controls are quantifiably different, down from where and when they drop, to the angle at which they tag the flagpole, to the pixel at which jumping Mario's fist makes contact with the ? block above him. Evven if the two play the same stage in exactly identical ways, jumping at all the same times, pressing the button at exactly the same time, the experience they generate will always be different simply by virtue of past, present, and future experience -- i.e. one guy might be a superplayer who's died only a handfull of times, but the other guy might be kinda bad at the game but somehow magically manages to pull an identical performance to the first player out of his ass.

But at the same time, unlike music and dancing, there are clearly defined rules by how much one can totally alter the content of the experience. Let's go back to the example of the Red Special -- even using Brian May's own guitar, you are not in any way, shape, or form limited to songs associated with Brian May. You could play Queen standards like Hammer to Fall, or you could do something entirely different and go into Zep's Heartbreaker, or you could just flick random strings at random times and make a whole lot of awful noise. If you're on-stage doing Swan Lake, there's no one stopping you from spontaneously stopping your pirouette and breaking out the windmills for your unwitting audience. But no matter how many times you boot up that SNES, unless you hack or otherwise alter the game -- and thereby create your own game -- you will always be limited in Super Mario Brothers. You can be Mario. You can be Luigi. But if you want to be Kirby, or turn it into a 2D SSBM, you're going to have to make your own game.

Bear in mind that this is not to say that video games have no aesthetic elements, and certainly not to say they are unworthy of serious cultural and academic appreciation. But I honestly believe that in order to properly appreciate them, you have to approach them from an entirely different angle than other expressive media. You are dealing here with the fusion of aesthetic elements and a rule-based system of competition (namely, a game) -- just picking one set of rules for judgment from one of those categories and applying them to video games simply won't work.

Thank you, and God bless America.
_________________
Unfilter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Reed



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: charge b, f + P

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:49 am        Reply with quote

composerzane wrote:
Ben Reed wrote:
even if you pick up Brian May's own Red Special, the music coming from that guitar is ALL YOU unless you are Brian May himself.


:)


*does Brighton Rock solo by mouth*
_________________
Unfilter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Reed



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: charge b, f + P

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:17 am        Reply with quote

Pikachu wrote:
Ben Reed has this flashing avatar that prevents me from reading any of his posts. It is quite annoying.


The brilliant light of Master Asia's aura obliterates the weak and the unworthy. None shall be spared.

klikbeep wrote:
Video games might not be art, but they are certainly better than art. Take the Mona Lisa (considered by many to be the most important work of art).


I dunno about that...

Quote:
Although certainly pretty in its own right, that prettiness is locked within a static form . . . no amount of effort on the part of the viewer can change its smile, or adjust its hair color, or make it talk to you.


The way I see it passive media and active media are two sides of the same coin. Sure the Mona Lisa will always feature the same subject, in the same setting, in one static instant of time, but really it's those momentary glances that in many ways allow us just as much freedom of interpretation and individuality of experience than active participation. We are only looking at ONE INSTANCE, one infinitesimally brief snapshot of this woman's existence -- as the viewers, we are given complete freedom to make whatever inferences we wish about her past, her present, her future, what she's thinking, what she's feeling, who she is as a human being or a universal entity.

There is a place for that kind of experience in human perception as well -- saying that video games or art are better than the other is to grossly oversimplify the issue. This topic is fundamentally subjective -- there is no room for absolutism on this matter. (Unless it's God Hand. If you don't like God Hand, you are WRONG.)

Quote:
So while games may not be Art (I HATE THAT TERM SO MUCH) they are a lot better than it for the reasons above, a new paradigm for us all.


This was what I was getting at, in a nutshell...except for the comparative judgment. We are not dealing with art in the conventional sense. We are dealing with something fundamentally new here, and I believe we must treat it as such.

Hot Stott Bot wrote:
Oh?

If I view a movie in the theare, with someone talking loud, sitting on the right side of the second row, I most certainly do get a different sensory experience than someone watching it on DVD, pausing frequently for their friend who has been drinking too much and keeps needing to go to the bathroom.

How is this difference in sensory experience somehow not the same as the different experiences of two people playing the same videogame?


For the purposes of my argument, I considered basically all outside influen ce -- i.e. the nature of the audience, the circumstances of the viewing/playing, and other externalities as irrelevant. I made my argument from the standpoint of a completely self-contained experience, namely, the player/artist themselves completely isolated from all external influence, where nothing matters but the raw experience of the media itself.

This is not to say that such externalities are irrelevant in practice -- that is certainly not the case. Surely I would think differently of Street Fighter II had I never indulged in the multiplayer aspects, or explored the competitive community associated with it. But we're not dealing with externalities here. I am looking solely at the "meta" of the issue.

Quote:
Of course, the degree to which the experiences vary from person to person when watching a movie is controlled by the creator, but isn't the same true of videogames?


The reason I disagree with this statement is twofold, and directly analogous to my original argument. First of all, unlike a "passive" media such as film, painting, or television (i.e., you sitting down and viewing them), what you get out of a video game is directly correlated to what you put into it. You may not "get" a film like Brazil, but that is due not to your ability to actually ENGAGE in the medium (namely, by viewing it), but to your subjective approach to thinking about the medium. There is nothing PHYSICALLY opbstructing you from watching the whole of Brazil from beginning to end unless your DVD player dies on you. In a video game, you cannot make wholly legitimate (though not wholly ILLEGITIMATE, in many cases) claim to have experienced the entirety of a game such as God Hand (deliberately playing favorites here) unless you have played the entire game from beginning to end. Until you can clear the barrier of actually being able to "finish" the game, or at least play enough of it to get a clear and objective view of how the aesthetic and systemic elements mesh with each other, you cannot render total judgment on the game.

Secondly, unlike "active" "art" such as music or dancing, while you are a wholly active participant and ability DEFINITELY plays a role in your experience, you are not wholly in control of the rules of the game. If you find a particular song too difficult to play, or a particular musical genre not to your liking, you have complete freedom to play a different song, switch genres, pick up a different instrument, do whatever, at ANY point you wish. Within a video game, you are given specific control of assigned elements of the game, and short of altering the game's actual substance, you will always be confined by those restrictions. Your ability to change the "rules of the game" are unalterably limited.

Again, I am CERTAINLY not making the case that video games are an unworthy medium, or in any way inferior to what we consider "art". I simply believe it's a bit too easy to simply take affront to the perceived assertion that "OH MY GOD VIDEO GAMES AREN'T ART, HOW CAN YOU TELL ME I HAVE BEEN PLAYING A LIE?!?" without taking a calm step back and REALLY looking at what makes video games special. It is easy to SAY that high-concept games like Shadow of the Colossus constitute ART by virtue of aesthetic elements, but I believe too many people fixate on the asesthetic and stylistic elements of video games and more or less ignore the role that technical aspects play. (Think for just a second -- would anyone have cared about the classic yellow design and quirky sound effects of Pac-Man had it not been a functional, entertaining game as well?) They fixate too much on the "video" to the detriment of the "game" -- you cannot have a "video game" without considering both facets.

All I ask for is a broadening of perspective on the issue. Unless we're talking about God Hand.
_________________
Unfilter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Reed



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: charge b, f + P

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:26 am        Reply with quote

P.S. Pikachu, I will make you a deal.

If you can find me a good, standard avatar-sized portrait of Gene from God Hand (or Shannon, or the gay leopard-twin midbosses, or Olivia in the bathtub wielding the axe...I am not terribly picky), I will promptly retire Master Asia so that you don't have to look at him anymore.

I would prefer the concept art from the manual or something similar, but a very clear, close-up screenshot cropped to appropriate size would also suffice. A hilarious facial expression is a must as well.

I have looked myself on Google and 4chan for a worthy image, but to no avail. Perhaps you will provide the answer that I seek.

Cheers and crumpets,

Benny
_________________
Unfilter / Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message
Quick Reply
 Attach signature
 Notify on replies

Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    selectbutton Forum Index -> King of Posters All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group