[Talbain]

Well, since I've started watching X-Men from the 1990s, I figured I'd start a discussion thread for the more general purpose of American cartoons in the 90s. I gotta say, that as I watch more, I see more cliches, yet I'm endeared further with the characters. It's almost like it's ok that they're blatant cliches, or the plot's completely ridiculous, because the characters seem genuine at least.

They all fight the good fight, with pride and dignity, and they're not so afraid of the censors that they can actually show "oh so not politically correct scenes." There's lots of violence, lots of romance, comedy, and a little bit of everything else. It's almost like a variety cartoon show with a somewhat continual plot (it jumps around a lot, which is a good and bad thing)

In some ways, it makes me regret that current cartoons have never reached the level of intelligence of something like, say, Animaniacs, and at the same time, makes me wonder (I'm generalizing, bear with me): is it possible that the reason the youth of today are so desensitized to everything is because we never show characters who actually feel?

I watch shows like Xiaolin Showdown, or the Cartoon Network stuff, and it seems like it either spends endless amounts of time with schtick (ATHF for example; funny at first, but it gets old quickly), or is so involved with one thing or another that you never really get an idea of the characters you're watching.

Anyone else interested at all, or see any paradigms like this? Maybe even in games? It's all relational, but I'm just curious as to what people think. Shows like Jackass and things tend to concern me more and more as I age, particularly with things like Youtube popularizing 15 seconds of fame equating to 15 seconds of absolute idiocy.

I apologize if some of this seems jumbled or disorganized, feel free to PM me if you have any suggestions on how I might improve it, or what I should move around or re-order.
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[Predator Goose]

Might I suggest that you sample, if you haven't already, early Dextor's Labaratory and Powerpuff Girls, Samurai Jack, and Batman: The Animated series. The Batman show aired around the same time as the Xmen cartoon and, I think, was a better show for the type of argument you're trying to present.
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I can no longer shop happily.

[Gin]

Batman: TAS is basically the best.

It was pretty fucking fantastic in a lot of ways.

I'm trying to think of what else I can remember that hasn't been mentioned...

I'm drawing a blank here for some reason.

Reboot was awesome.

Ren and Stimpy was... well it was Ren and Stimpy.

[Renfrew]

Don't forget Pinky and the Brain.

[JamesE]

Part of the reason I liked Sonic was because his inital design was a really genuine futuristic evolution of Mickey Mouse, Felix the Cat or Krazy Kat - that kind of surreal, Jazz-like atmosphere where even the world is animated and alive.

He's lost that, of course, but I still think it's a really appealing asthetic.

[Talbain]

I'd agree with that, Batman The Animated Series was certainly an interesting look (for its time) on contemporary views of good and evil. Skewing the line was something that I absolutely loved that seemed to have a good foothold in the 90s. Somehow that seems to have dissipated in what is now available.
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[Adilegian]

I really like a lot of John Kricfalusi's work, as long as he's got someone strongarming him from what he really wants to do. The first season of Ren and Stimpy was absolutely brilliant, in large part owing to his inability to make the content as raunchy as he wanted.

But for God's sake. The man made the act of FINAL LEAVE-TAKING synonymous with snapping on a Borsalino fedora, snatching your briefcase, and marching out the goddamn door with a cigar/ette dangling from your lips.

"I'm outta here man!"

Big, multi-MB images to illustrate this. I've left them as links for those with slow connections.

http://www.adilegian.com/Images/BabyLeaves.gif

http://www.adilegian.com/Images/FishLeave.gif

And then, you know... this is just genius:

http://www.adilegian.com/Images/TankChute.gif
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[Loki Laufeyson]

this is somewhat like the theory that the poor quality of today's rtoons is the reason there are so many fat kids today.

reasoning being that in days of yore, kids would get up early on saturday, watch x-men, conan, and batman, then go out and play, but today, there's no animated incentive for kids to get up.

[Levi]

Well, fuck. Or even get up at all.

I mean, they can have cartoons whenever they goddamn want.

[Talbain]

I wouldn't necessarily say it's entirely a form of media's fault (again, I was generalizing), but it does seem strange that the new problems of today seem to be with people having too much, rather than not enough. I figure a good place to start, besides parenting itself, would be to the many influences outside of parenting that can't really be controlled. The internet is now one such medium as well (it can be controlled, but if you try to do it, you know they'll find a way around it).
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[Adilegian]

[Talbain]

[John Mc.]

guys i'm requesting a mmo of foster's home for imaginary friends.

[Dracko]

The animated Batman series is indeed fantastic fare. If you want something strange and pure 90s, I'd also recommend Æon Flux.

I mean, it's drawn and created by a Korean-American whose main inspiration is Egon Schiele, and is helped out by a drunk and insane American who's a huge Nabokov fan and a group of The Prisoner fans. The series is experimental and exciting, and covers a lot of interesting ideological ground. The central idea is: Æon's a self-reliant anarchist, Trevor Goodchild, her rival, is an authoritarian ruler of the country, Bregna, she constantly seems to attempt infiltrating. The thing is, they're also lovers, complicating things. This allows for surrealism confrontations and awesome character interaction. You might be happy with it: Emotions run high and rampant, and it won't treat you like an idiot. It's an obviously adult cartoon, but all the same, it's great stuff.

At the moment, I really do enjoy The Venture Brothers.
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[luvcraft]

I feel very sad that the 90s X-Men cartoon is considered "old school". :(
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[Adilegian]

[FortNinety]

I agree with a lot of what the original poster has to say, but I do believe that some of it is nostalgia.

But I also blame... sorry guys... anime for, in some instances, like when folks use to as a template to make things "darke". Yet certainly not mature. Seemingly sophisticated, but not really. And the insincerity... I wholeheartedly agree. I've been told that Avatar the Air-Bender, or whatever its called is good, but it just looks like more dumb white guys trying to be all Shaolin and shit. Whatever.

Though I also thought Tiny Toons/Animaniacs was extremely insincere as well (are a way too hard attempt at trying to be like the way it was, though that was primarily problem with Tiny Toons), though I was a pretty jaded 13 year old, so maybe my tastes have changed.

Oh. And I really want a video game equivalent to Liquid Television.
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[Dracko]

[Deets]

[extrabastardformula]

She does run from the left side to the riight side. I always noticed that when I watched Æon Flux and wondered if that meant it was a videogame of sorts anyway. It always bothered me a little.

Later in the series proper, when there were episodes that actually had a pretext of continuity between two or more episodes she would occasionally go left, but never in the self contained episodes. Going from right to left resulted in death, either to the hordes of Bregnan troops she gunned down or the refugees getting cut in twain by giant scissors while they attempt to cross the border. It implies a sort of natural progression in left to right that must not be questioned.

In doing so it put an emphasis on the viewer's perspective since alternative camera angles would have presented the figures moving in other directions, but the actual destinations never mattered as much as theconstant left to right.
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[q 3]

X-Men Evolution (2000-2003) was pretty good. It didn't really try too hard to follow convoluted comics canon to the letter (unlike the '90s series) and so was free to basically be its own thing and do some usually interesting new things with older, forgotten characters and stories.

[Wall of Beef]

The one thing I loved about the Batman cartoon, and ever the Superman cartoon, was that each episode was a single event. Start and finish each episode. But that every now and again they did a two-parter, but now with Anime they insist on this never ending story line. That its always a seventy-parter.

With single episode events you can go in knowing that when that 30 minutes is over, you can go on with your day and relive that same moment over and over. When they threw that two-parter it was special, that this battle was too much for 30 minutes, that batman/superman was really going to be tested. But at the same time it lets you live. With these epic storylines with Anime you go in and its "Hope you have time kids, this will take a while. Oh and no time to fill in your own imagination about the characters, we'll do that for you."

Plus back then we had no idea what the hell "season" was. It was just on at a certain time. You could miss episodes, and revisit them and not feel out of place.

Maybe I just have a poor attention span. But I believe that Anime Series are/have ruining cartoons.
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Tumblr

[Dracko]

[Max Cola]

I AM THE CHEESE. I AM THE BEST CHARACTER ON THE SHOW. I AM BETTER THAN THE SALAMI AND THE BOLOGNA COMBINED!!!




(...my sincerest apologies for breaking up the discussion. please, carry on.)
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Everybody hurts sometimes

[haze]

when I was young I liked watching those really old Alvin and the Chipmunks cartoons they'd play on that Wienerville show. Clyde Crashcup was the true main character there. see I was a very old-school as a child, way ahead of my time.

[Talbain]

I agree and disagree with you haze.

I agree with you in that I like shows to be individual enough to be seen individually and just "hit the ground running," so to speak. I disagree with you in that episodic content is a menace, because I like episodic content.

The reason for this is primarily because writers aren't very good at it. Take a series like Ergo Proxy or Cowboy Bebop and you can see it done right, but any average series doesn't really live up to the standards of these shows. The reason for this is almost wholly the writer's responsibility.

As far as them not being good at it, I simply mean that most writers do not know how to keep episodic content and an individual show in balance. Most shows look at it one way or the other. Either you have something like Family Guy or The Simpsons, where stock characters are pervasive and real changes are few, or you have a series like Neon Genesis Evangelion or Serial Experiments Lain where you MUST watch all the episodes in order to make any fucking sense out of it.

As a result, it seems the times are beginning to favor episodic content, and I must confess that I do not believe its influences are a good thing, because striking the balance is more important to me. Granted, American shows generally stick to the stock characters and scenarios idea, but with shows like "Heroes" or "Lost," it is very apparent that episodic content is becoming more and more ingrained. Frankly, I'd much prefer there to be a subtle series of plots that take effect slowly as sub-plots, moving towards the forefront when they are important to the particular, "individual" episode. X-Men actually reminds me a lot of this.
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[haze]

oh yeah, I'm not totally against it. kinda burned out on it, but I can see where it's definitely useful. I just think, action cartoons at least, the story's not so important as anime would have us believe? something like Lost, which is all about character development, that can take its time. though it'd be a pity if it went on for 70 episodes with no conclusion (from some friends who used to be fans of it, it sounded like it's heading that way) so it's all got to be about finding the balance.... and maybe that's too much to ask for. the execs gotta milk their series for the money, after all. some will be more tasteful about it than others.


well anyway, take Naruto for example. I know, it's a kid's show, and it's silly to criticize it. does it really have to focus so much on melodramatic angst? do the story "arcs" really have to go on for 2 years before they conclude? I think the basic premise would make a pretty kick-ass "Saturday Morning Cartoon" for kids... 30 minute ninja adventures of these characters (non-canon!) where the bad guy gets away in the end. maybe every season, a few twists happen and someone switches sides, or whatever. wishful thinking! I just feel like it's redundant, the manga series already has the whole cliffhangers every 18 pages aspect covered.
maybe it's just my personal taste, that I think it's unhealthy if kids growing up start to view everything like this. kinda like gamers that ONLY play jRPGs, if you know what I mean.

I didn't mean to turn this into "complain about anime thread" but I guess popular tastes in both Japanese and American shows might be heading the same direction lately! it's not a bad point to discuss.

(by the way, I thought episodic meant non-continuous? I'm not sure how to use it here)



edit: SUMMARY = KIDS HAVE TOO MUCH ATTENTION SPAN THESE DAYS.

[another coma]

[RobotRocker]

[ionustron]

I was waiting for someone to mention Justice League! Story lingth was very good in that show (arcs wereusually no longer than 2, sometimes 3 episodes.) The finales did pull from WAY back though, like pre-justice league superman cartoons though.

[SplashBeats]

[Zebadayus]

Does anybody recall EEK! The Cat?

Now, EEK! itself wasn't that funny to me, but there was this other cartoon they showed each episode (for maybe ten minutes or something of the show), called The Incredible Thunder Lizards, or maybe the Terrible Thunder Lizards. (I'm thinking Terrible)

Anyway, that one was hilarious. It took place in prehistoric times, and starred these three black leather clad dinosaurs who were also merceneries, but they sucked as merceneries.

[SinJin]

Yeah Batman: TAS was extraordinary for it time and still holds a place in my heart, it still rocks the socks of almost anything currently on TV. Then you got X-men and another personal favorite of mine was Spider-Man: TAS, that was pretty damn well done too. Dexter's Lab was by far one of the best shows cartoon network ever made and am still trying to find some place to get all the episodes somehow.
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Well excuuuse me princess!
Wii Freind code: 8416-2623-6843-1620

[Max Cola]

[Talbain]

I was never a huge fan of Rocko's Modern Life. All my friends loved it, but in general I never really understood a lot of the humor. The same for Ren and Stimpy. It just seemed gross to me.

But then, maybe that's because I just don't really respond to gross. Horror movies for me are like watching a person masturbate with their feet. Sure it's got some value of some sort, but I certainly can't pin it down. B-movie style horror's a different story though.
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[DarwinMayflower]

[L]

I question the continued relevance of this topic to Japanese video games starting with "King of".

[inmatarian]

Our generation's cartoons were awesome. Now, I know I'm a little older so technically, my generation start watching cartoons in 1985, but that doesn't change the fact that we had something going there. I used to love getting up before everyone else in the house to watch my shows.

For example, Anyone remember Exosquad?
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2993 badness blog email

[Zebadayus]

Anime has ruined American Cartoons. Maybe.

Not to say that they weren't already moving off the track. Anime went and pushed them right off, though.

[v84j3gs2uc7ns4]

[v84j3gs2uc7ns4]