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dementia
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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v84j3gs2uc7ns4
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:57 pm |
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Burp
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: A Miserable Little Pile Of Secrets!
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:03 pm |
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The sources are a little hard to believe... but lets wait, Ikaruga for XBLA will be a great add to the XBLA.
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luvcraft
buy my game buy my game me me me
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Cobrastan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:04 pm |
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ORLY? That's very interesting.
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:44 pm |
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Jesus Christ.
I already have it for GameCube, but I might actually buy it again on XBLA. Especially if they update the graphics to HD and do better sound reproduction.
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Baines
banned
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:45 pm |
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ORLY? That's very interesting. |
That is also part of why Gamecube games are recorded from the outside in, instead of the normal inside to out method.
The difference makes a slight boost in load times. Since the entire disc is spun at a constant speed, the outer edge is actually moving data past the laser at a faster rate than the inner edge. |
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Sixfortyfive
Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:15 pm |
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The Dreamcast version was 30-some megabytes altogether, IIRC. Ripped it myself a while back. |
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shnozlak
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: pushing crates in the sewer level
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:20 pm |
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ORLY? That's very interesting. |
That is also part of why Gamecube games are recorded from the outside in, instead of the normal inside to out method.
The difference makes a slight boost in load times. Since the entire disc is spun at a constant speed, the outer edge is actually moving data past the laser at a faster rate than the inner edge. |
Thats assuming that data is recorded to the disk at a uniform bits per unit distance as opposed to a uniform bits per revolution. This assumption also assumes that the sampling rate from the center out is not uniform but rises (steadily?) as it goes outward. So the laser would need to determine its distance to the center and adjust its sampling rate continuously as it read data. So basically im calling BS.
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luvcraft
buy my game buy my game me me me
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Cobrastan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:36 pm |
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| shnozlak wrote: |
| That's assuming that data is recorded to the disk at a uniform bits per unit distance as opposed to a uniform bits per revolution. This assumption also assumes that the sampling rate from the center out is not uniform but rises (steadily?) as it goes outward. So the laser would need to determine its distance to the center and adjust its sampling rate continuously as it read data. So basically im calling BS. |
I was about to say the same thing, but not nearly as well.
I would guess (having no experience with CD technology) that since the bits (well, the pits representing bits, but you know what I mean) on the outer edge are physically larger than the bits further in that they are easier to read and take less passes to error check. That's a total guess, though.
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dementia
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:02 pm |
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| Sixfortyfive wrote: |
| The Dreamcast version was 30-some megabytes altogether, IIRC. Ripped it myself a while back. |
I think it's actually around 18 MB.
I'm amazed by the level of compression, especially with regards to the sound quality. |
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showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:11 pm |
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| Think that's impressive? This is only 96k. |
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:36 pm |
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| I wish somebody would get rid of the slow-down when bosses explode. |
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Deets
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:22 pm |
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| I was under the impression that the slowdown was intentional. |
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WarpZone
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:24 pm |
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| Maybe he feels it was dramatic overstatement? They actually added more slowdown to the GC boss explosions (and removed it during the levels). |
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:39 pm |
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| If the slowdown is intentional, then I'm pretty disappointed. It's a tacky way to try to dramatize already dramatic explosions, and it contrasts with the smooth destruction of even greater non-boss enemies. It's a distraction and gets in the way of the epic feel created by the music. It should be eliminated. It is the one single flaw in a perfect game. |
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boagman
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:05 pm |
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| internisus wrote: |
| If the slowdown is intentional, then I'm pretty disappointed. It's a tacky way to try to dramatize already dramatic explosions, and it contrasts with the smooth destruction of even greater non-boss enemies. It's a distraction and gets in the way of the epic feel created by the music. It should be eliminated. It is the one single flaw in a perfect game. |
Wow...I guess I'm going to disagree, here. To me, the intentional slowdown is almost a reward for the player, sort of a "You did it, now sit back and enjoy the show" type of thing. It's not like it's affecting the actual gameplay itself, but simply the, um, "choreography" of the production.
Call it an artistic decision, and in this game, I think it works well. Feel free to disagree, but I'd never even thought to call it into question. I always just enjoyed the whole shebang (no pun intended). |
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winkerwatson
badmin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:09 am |
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| internisus wrote: |
| If the slowdown is intentional, then I'm pretty disappointed. It's a tacky way to try to dramatize already dramatic explosions, and it contrasts with the smooth destruction of even greater non-boss enemies. It's a distraction and gets in the way of the epic feel created by the music. It should be eliminated. It is the one single flaw in a perfect game. |
thanks for missing the point big man
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NFG
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane.au
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:46 am |
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| Quote: |
| Thats assuming that data is recorded to the disk at a uniform bits per unit distance as opposed to a uniform bits per revolution. This assumption also assumes that the sampling rate from the center out is not uniform but rises (steadily?) as it goes outward. So the laser would need to determine its distance to the center and adjust its sampling rate continuously as it read data. So basically im calling BS. |
This is why LDs had two kinds of discs: CAV and CLV. Constant angular velocity and constant linear velocity. In the former there was a fixed number of bits in every rotation. In the latter the disc would actually slow down to read them... But this is different, as with video you need a fixed bit-rate to feed the electron guns, LDs didn't use digital video and couldn't buffer the signal.
In any case, it's true: there are more bits per rotation at the outside edge of a CD than the inside. If they were more widely spaced out you'd probably see the gaps between them, like you can on a CAV LD. And, it's gotta be said, that would be stupidly wasteful.
And, duh, the laser KNOWS how far out it is from the center, it's not a record player. What happens when it seeks to a new file? It whips out to a point a specific distance from the center.
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Kappuru
forum bishonen
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:51 am |
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the iso of ikaruga compresses down to 19.1 mb.
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Jeff Garneau
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:56 am |
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| dementia wrote: |
| Sixfortyfive wrote: |
| The Dreamcast version was 30-some megabytes altogether, IIRC. Ripped it myself a while back. |
I think it's actually around 18 MB.
I'm amazed by the level of compression, especially with regards to the sound quality. |
the dolmexica rip is in fact 17.25 MB.
the sound is not done through prerecorded audio, but with programmed instrumentation, like MIDI. |
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firenze
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Bonus Round
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:33 am |
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Wouldn't it be, you know, smarter to re-release Radiant Silvergun instead? Most everyone who would be interested in Ikaruga has played in either on DC or the US Gamecube release. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who would actually like to play RSG and haven't had the opportunity. Supposing the amount of "frothing demand" to actually play either game in any form is about the same (people who are open to playing 2D vert shooters being the assumed sample group here), don't you think you'd sell more of the one people have been denied access to? I'm sure there are people who would re-buy either, but I'd guess there would be more people who would pass on Ikaruga as an "I already have it/played it" game than would be the case for RSG.
Note that this comes from someone who really doesn't even like RSG - I bought it the week of original Saturn release and always hated it, I'm glad somebody tripled my investment because of stupid internet hype. To this day I think RSG is one of the most overrated games ever in any genre. I do like Ikaruga a good bit more, interestingly enough...
And I guess maybe I just explained one possible conspiracy theory - one could say RSG really isn't that good and it lives based on cult status and hype, and that would go away if it was easliy available for people to actually judge on its merits as a game. Therefore, why bother releasing it and spoiling the legend?
And yes, perhaps developers are more comfortable porting from Naomi than ST-V. But that wouldn't be exciting and controversial, now would it? |
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gooktime
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: no
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:07 am |
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It's safe to say there are quite a few people with Dreamcasts setup soly for playing Ikaruga and then there's the convenience of playing it from a hard drive to consider.
I'd love a chance to play RSG, not owning a Saturn or having a gigantic income and all, but this would still be really sweet. Providing there's a decent controller option by the time it's out of course... and that you can tate. (2007WFP 4 lyfe) |
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dementia
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:30 pm |
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| firenze wrote: |
| Wouldn't it be, you know, smarter to re-release Radiant Silvergun instead? |
I think it's for the same reason it hasn't been ported to anything else yet. A faithful conversion would just be too difficult to achieve. |
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Knurek
Joined: 16 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:15 pm |
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| dementia wrote: |
| firenze wrote: |
| Wouldn't it be, you know, smarter to re-release Radiant Silvergun instead? |
I think it's for the same reason it hasn't been ported to anything else yet. A faithful conversion would just be too difficult to achieve. |
MAME guys are on the right track tho. And they don't have the comfort of using Treasure sources. |
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dmauro
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Broker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:28 pm |
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If anyone has a Dreamcast set up just for Ikaruga, they are a fool and deserve no special treatment.
NFG, taking the kids to school.
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:59 pm |
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| boagman wrote: |
| internisus wrote: |
| If the slowdown is intentional, then I'm pretty disappointed. It's a tacky way to try to dramatize already dramatic explosions, and it contrasts with the smooth destruction of even greater non-boss enemies. It's a distraction and gets in the way of the epic feel created by the music. It should be eliminated. It is the one single flaw in a perfect game. |
Wow...I guess I'm going to disagree, here. To me, the intentional slowdown is almost a reward for the player, sort of a "You did it, now sit back and enjoy the show" type of thing. It's not like it's affecting the actual gameplay itself, but simply the, um, "choreography" of the production.
Call it an artistic decision, and in this game, I think it works well. Feel free to disagree, but I'd never even thought to call it into question. I always just enjoyed the whole shebang (no pun intended). |
I never even considered that it was intentional before this thread, and the reason is that the slowdown doesn't look like artistic slowdown -- it looks like lack-of-hardware-power slowdown. The frames pause and jump, pause and jump, whereas artistic slowdown is smooth, allowing the eye to see the frames between the frames the eye would normally see. If Ikaruga's boss explosions slowed down like that, I'd be fine with it, even pleased, but they don't. They look like either hardware slowdown or a tacky reference to it -- as in "you killed this boss so hard that you almost broke the game!"
That was a good pun. |
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DonMarco
graphics fucker
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:35 pm |
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| dementia wrote: |
| firenze wrote: |
| Wouldn't it be, you know, smarter to re-release Radiant Silvergun instead? |
I think it's for the same reason it hasn't been ported to anything else yet. A faithful conversion would just be too difficult to achieve. |
Another reason: controllers don't have 6 face buttons any more. Not that you would need them... But it would be nice, says I.
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dmauro
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Broker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:44 pm |
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I think intentional slowdown is usually achieved by pushing the hardware beyond it's limits. And yeah, I think the "you beat that boss so hard it almost broke the game" effect is a good way of describing what is nice about it.
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:06 pm |
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| But that attitude doesn't mesh with Ikaruga's poetic nature. |
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:51 pm |
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| dmauro wrote: |
If anyone has a Dreamcast set up just for Ikaruga, they are a fool and deserve no special treatment.
NFG, taking the kids to school. |
You have seen Ikaruga on a Dreamcast-VGA monitor TATE setup, haven't you? Gamecube version is a POOR substitute, but it'll do until I get my own..
This is why I hope any XBLA version takes advantage of HD.
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EU03
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:27 pm |
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I wouldn't want to do tate on my 52" back at home...and I have no VGA cable. D:
I really should invest in one. Can one find them at say, a Best Buy?
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Lestrade
Mary McMoePanties
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Toronto
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dementia
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:41 pm |
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| Lestrade wrote: |
| So, it looks like it's official? I've never played this, but I probably will now! |
You're in for a treat or a total disappointment |
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dmauro
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Broker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:56 pm |
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| GcDiaz wrote: |
| dmauro wrote: |
If anyone has a Dreamcast set up just for Ikaruga, they are a fool and deserve no special treatment.
NFG, taking the kids to school. |
You have seen Ikaruga on a Dreamcast-VGA monitor TATE setup, haven't you? Gamecube version is a POOR substitute, but it'll do until I get my own..
This is why I hope any XBLA version takes advantage of HD. |
I run my Dreamcast through a VGA cable into a 50" HDTV. Yeah Ikaruga looks fantastic, but there are so many other awesome games for the system that to say you have it set up only for Ikaruga would mean you are wasting a Dreamcast.
| EU03 wrote: |
I wouldn't want to do tate on my 52" back at home...and I have no VGA cable. D:
I really should invest in one. Can one find them at say, a Best Buy? |
Go to eBay and you can get the cables for something like 15 bucks. It is very much worth it especially since using the composite cables might cause a delay in the video on an HDTV. After switching to the VGA cable I got the benefit of no perceptible lag and perfect image clarity.
| internisus wrote: |
| But that attitude doesn't mesh with Ikaruga's poetic nature. |
When the bosses arrive it presents you with a Warning screen that says less about "poetry" and more about "you are playing a shmup." I mean, I realize the second boss is a big 'ole yin yang and all, but I don't think that excludes Ikaruga from the typical shooter cliches.
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Felix
unofficial repository
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: vancouver
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:08 pm |
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those of you who are going to all this trouble to get VGA hookups and keeping your dreamcasts around only for ikaruga and what have you:
chankast works pretty well, you know. |
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Jeff Garneau
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:32 pm |
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| ikaruga looks pretty ugly in chankast last time i checked, actually. big black boxes around sprites. |
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:33 pm |
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| Well, I could do without the Warning thing, too, I guess. |
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another coma
NeoGAF Reject
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: the wrong museum
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:35 pm |
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| Jeff Garneau wrote: |
| ikaruga looks pretty ugly in chankast last time i checked, actually. big black boxes around sprites. |
some bullets were invisible by stage 2 last I checked
(extra challenge mode lol)
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dmauro
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Broker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:45 pm |
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| internisus wrote: |
| Well, I could do without the Warning thing, too, I guess. |
I don't know if I buy it, man. I mean throughout the entire game you're going nuts not just dodging bullets, but also trying to make sure you're not breaking your chain (my roommate likes to play a little Fleetwood Mac for me when I play), and it's makes you a little too anxious to get any sort of emotional impact beyond "hell yeah, I'm kicking ass right now."
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:47 pm |
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| Lestrade wrote: |
| So, it looks like it's official? I've never played this, but I probably will now! |
Man just because joystiq makes a post about it doesn't mean it's official.
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:55 pm |
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| dmauro wrote: |
| internisus wrote: |
| Well, I could do without the Warning thing, too, I guess. |
I don't know if I buy it, man. I mean throughout the entire game you're going nuts not just dodging bullets, but also trying to make sure you're not breaking your chain (my roommate likes to play a little Fleetwood Mac for me when I play), and it's makes you a little too anxious to get any sort of emotional impact beyond "hell yeah, I'm kicking ass right now." |
I disagree. Beyond the subjective frantic experience lies something pure and objective. I guess for some people Ikaruga is primarily an action game, and for others a puzzle. |
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