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Renfrew catchy, and giger-esque

Joined: 31 Dec 2006 Location: Hometown: America
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mechanori

Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:49 am |
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| Without knowing anything about Castlevania, I picked up the N64 game from a bargain bin. But that was then! I should play it. |
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diplo

Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:01 am |
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actually, most of those reasons are pretty lame!
i mean, the besitary is mostly comprised of really angry furries on steroids.
the n64 games aren't offensively bad, but they severely lack imagination. |
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Renfrew catchy, and giger-esque

Joined: 31 Dec 2006 Location: Hometown: America
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:05 am |
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| I think at least a few of the points are valid, like the one about extra characters who actually have a story, or the vampires. |
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Mr Mustache Mean Mr. Mustache

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Bushwick
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:43 am |
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I am actually pretty interested in this game. Someone should send it to me, and I will play it. _________________ The people are like wool to me |
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Renfrew catchy, and giger-esque

Joined: 31 Dec 2006 Location: Hometown: America
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:47 am |
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| I wish I had the second one, I just have the first. I rented the second way back when. Most of the things pointed out in the list are from the second game. I could maybe send you the first if you really wanted. |
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Mr Mustache Mean Mr. Mustache

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Bushwick
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:02 am |
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Oh, I was actually talking about the second. I have the first, and kind of like it but mostly don't. _________________ The people are like wool to me |
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Renfrew catchy, and giger-esque

Joined: 31 Dec 2006 Location: Hometown: America
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:17 am |
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| The second is much better. I love Henry mode. |
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Churippu Mister Mercury

Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Location: Flick of the wrist
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:06 am |
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Oh they are right about the Reaper. He was awesome.
I think the designs for most of the enemies in this one were pretty good and for some reason I always loved the design for Carrie she is so cute! I dunno, I always enjoyed looking at the art for both Castlevania 64 and SOTN (of course) |
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newave

Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:10 am |
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| I vaguley remeber thinking these games werent that terrible...minus the platforming bits. Then again it was tought ot be a n64 owner in those days. |
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showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:55 pm |
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The N64 games were more imaganitive because they tried to do justice to what the older, broader concept of Castlevania was, back before IGA turned each (pre-1999) installment into a goth opera. The over-abundance of furies was a little odd. it was strange in Cirlce of the Moon too.
I wish Konami would let the Circle team make a new Castlevania game. If they let IGA write the script so the plot would comply with his overall epic vision I'm sure he'd be fine with it. |
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Maztorre

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Ireland
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:21 pm |
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| I wish these would come onto the Virtual Console already :( |
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diplo

Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:17 pm |
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| showka wrote: |
| The N64 games were more imaganitive because they tried to do justice to what the older, broader concept of Castlevania was, back before IGA turned each (pre-1999) installment into a goth opera. |
i really don't think that's true.
the 64 games are caught in a rather blind spot - one that's between the pre-igarashi, classic era and the renaissance of symphony.
aesthetically, the installments resemble resident evil, shadowgate, or nightmare creatures significantly more than castlevania. lots of fog, mud, and grey bricks. it's not horror schlock, nor is it ancientness melded with the baroque. it's just "lol castlevania is dark am i rite?"
the music is completely out of the loop, as well, sounding like the wind sighing and thumping drums, rather than the creative, melodic stuff the series is known for.
the stories pay little attention to the order symphony tried to establish, and suggest a ridiculous amount of resurrections in the past few decades, while also allowing dracula to be resurrected outside of the established rules. also, reinhardt schneider is not a belmont, yet he uses the vampire killer. no attempt is made to explain how this happened. no attempt is made to even say "it's explained elsewhere."
structurally, i'd say lament of innocence is better in being a throw-back to the original game; the main thing getting in the way of really achieving that is the backtracking. cv64 and lod feel more like tomb raider than castlevania.
they are competent games, but they are mostly deaf to what the rest of the series has done, and end up feeling like generic adventure games with the castlevania name slapped on them. |
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Renfrew catchy, and giger-esque

Joined: 31 Dec 2006 Location: Hometown: America
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:13 pm |
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| It would have made more sense if they had just left Reindhart's name as they had originally planned it. |
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Levi

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:01 pm |
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True of False:
Castlevania 64 wouldn't be nearly as hated if it weren't named Castlevania. |
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nixon
Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:56 pm |
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I remember playing through to completion back when it first came out. I generally liked it, but the controls were the part that made it the most difficult for me. Coming off of the tight controls of Zelda, Castlevania64 just didn't have the same ease of use like Zelda. I felt I had to fight the game to play it much more that I felt was needed.
Example: Platforming bits. That stupid walking with the bomb thing. |
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meauxdal militant atheist

Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Location: georgia, usa
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:17 pm |
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Well, I'd definitely like to get one of these. If anyone is still interested in the mail...? Or is there some cheap ebay auction?
If someone sent me one, I'd send it back when finished. |
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diplo

Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:23 pm |
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| Levi wrote: |
True of False:
Castlevania 64 wouldn't be nearly as hated if it weren't named Castlevania. |
most likely true - but! at the same time, the name is probably the only thing helping people remember the game's existence. |
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showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:33 pm |
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| diplo wrote: |
| showka wrote: |
| The N64 games were more imaganitive because they tried to do justice to what the older, broader concept of Castlevania was, back before IGA turned each (pre-1999) installment into a goth opera. |
i really don't think that's true.
the 64 games are caught in a rather blind spot - one that's between the pre-igarashi, classic era and the renaissance of symphony.
aesthetically, the installments resemble resident evil, shadowgate, or nightmare creatures significantly more than castlevania. lots of fog, mud, and grey bricks. it's not horror schlock, nor is it ancientness melded with the baroque. it's just "lol castlevania is dark am i rite?"
the music is completely out of the loop, as well, sounding like the wind sighing and thumping drums, rather than the creative, melodic stuff the series is known for.
the stories pay little attention to the order symphony tried to establish, and suggest a ridiculous amount of resurrections in the past few decades, while also allowing dracula to be resurrected outside of the established rules. also, reinhardt schneider is not a belmont, yet he uses the vampire killer. no attempt is made to explain how this happened. no attempt is made to even say "it's explained elsewhere."
structurally, i'd say lament of innocence is better in being a throw-back to the original game; the main thing getting in the way of really achieving that is the backtracking. cv64 and lod feel more like tomb raider than castlevania.
they are competent games, but they are mostly deaf to what the rest of the series has done, and end up feeling like generic adventure games with the castlevania name slapped on them. |
Whats odd is in many ways I agree with some of the points you made regarding the style of the N64 games. Castlevania 64 tried to take the series in a slightly different direction, so there were actually real vampires and strange furry monsters and stuff. I never really liked that.
Its just after playing Lament of Innocence and comparing the two, its hard to say Lament is more loyal to the style that was already established in the series (even in terms of what came before Lament). Many of the enemies have the same names as older foes but they act totally different (like the dogs, and the vomitting zombies, and the ghosts that use weapons). I think both stabs at doing the series in 3D come off as a bit too dirty and grungy ( I never played Curse of Darkness, so I'm not including it. I keep waiting for it to appear at a reasonable price but it never does).
Lament can't be a throw back to the original game because its a dungeon hack. The game feels more like the spiritual successor to the old Ninja Turtle arcade games, and would be more enjoyable if it allowed for two players.
The original game wasn't about hacking through waves of enemies, it was about traveling through Dracula's castle. Lament is about wondering around maze like levels with flat rooms to find enough items to open the door to fight a boss. The N64 games offer a better sense of progression and thus feel much more like classic Castlevania. The levels all have a personality, and there are a more bosses to keep things from getting boring. The two most puzzle loaded parts of the game, the Villa and the Castle Center (thankfully absent in Cornell's quest) consist of puzzles that generally make sense and aren't there just so you have some reason to go to the edge of a level map thats stretched too far for its own good. I know what you mean when you compare the game to other titles like Resident Evil and nightmare warriors, but there wasn't that much puzzle solving. The game was filled with areas like the dual tower and clock tower that felt more like classic Castlevania levels than anything in Lament. Legacy has it share of lock and key moments but they're rarer and the keys don't require a map to find.
| Quote: |
the music is completely out of the loop, as well, sounding like the wind sighing and thumping drums, rather than the creative, melodic stuff the series is known for.
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Too much of the game is filled with stuff thats meant to be ambient stuff, but it wasn't all bad. The actual music thats in the game is quite good. There's two things from Castlevania 64 that I wish they'd kept in Legacy of Darkness - Reinherts Simon Belmont suit (even though it looked ridiculous) and the opening with Malus playing Richter's theme on the violin.
| Renfrew wrote: |
It would have made more sense if they had just left Reindhart's name as they had originally planned it. |
I wonder sometimes if all of Konami's early N64 games were just overbaked in commity, especially Castlevania. Remember how originally the fourth character was going to be a half Frankenstein style monster who had a cowboy hate or something? This later became the Frankenstein monster (one of the coolest parts in the game).
The N64 games also have a schizofrentic take on when they're suppossed to take place. Everyone talks about the motorcycles, but another bit of strangeness is how the salesmen mentions an impending world war. The game would seem more appropriate if it was set sometime in the 20th century.
| diplo wrote: |
the stories pay little attention to the order symphony tried to establish, and suggest a ridiculous amount of resurrections in the past few decades, while also allowing dracula to be resurrected outside of the established rules. also, reinhardt schneider is not a belmont, yet he uses the vampire killer. no attempt is made to explain how this happened. no attempt is made to even say "it's explained elsewhere."
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This isn't quite true. Before SOTN (the N64 games entered development before its release) there was never this idea that the castle magically came back magically every hundred years and thus looked different. In fact, the first stage of Bloodlines has you going through the ruins of Castlevania, which we're suppossed to believe just sits around all the time being filled with evil.
In fact, Bloodlines also has a Belmont who's name isn't Belmont - John Morris (or whatever his name was). The game starts off by mentioning the great feats of the Belmont clan, and then offers no explanation for why you aren't playing as a Belmont. The reason is simple and implied: at some point, there was no male line decendent and so the last name changed, but the characters are still "Belmonts" none the less. The N64 games also used jewels instead of hearts, just like Bloodlines, so its maybe the developers wanted to adhere to some of the ideas put fourth in Bloodlines.
About the game not being congruent to the overall Castlevania model of one resurrection per century, a google search told me that Castlevania III takes place in 1476. Aria of Sorrow says that Dracula was resurrected in 1999. Thats 23 years later than the date set down by Castlevania III. Castlevania 64 takes place in 1952, 23 years earlier than the originally projected date. So both IGA and his rivals created stories that conflicted with the set date by exactly 23 years.
I won't lie though. The whole "eight years earlier, a wolf dude fought Dracula's minions to get his sister back" is kind of stupid. Dracula never really resurrects but all of his buddies are still chilling out at his pad. To be fair, remember that Bloodlines also did this, and Castlevania II has all of the country side filled with crazy ass monsters and never really establishes why this aside from it being an effect of "Dracula's curse". I want to give the developers the benefit of the doubt and say they wrote Cornell's plot they did to sell the game as a prequel for crass commercial reasons and not because they thought it was a good idea. It would've been better to just put Cornell's quest at the same time as everyone else's, and while they were at it make all four characters playable from the start and never release the original Castlevania 64 either. |
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Ebrey
Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:07 pm |
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| Showka, the thing about Castlevania is that what makes it Castlevania has little to do with gameplay, which has changed radically in between games. It's about the aesthetic and to a lesser degree the story, and that's why IGA's games are continuations of the classic Castlevania and the 64 games aren't. That doesn't mean that all of IGA's games are good or that the 64 games are bad. |
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showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:29 pm |
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| But the asthetic of the N64 games was much more in line with the series than Lament of Innocence. |
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tacotaskforce

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Logical, Practical
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Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:36 am |
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| showka wrote: |
| ( I never played Curse of Darkness, so I'm not including it. I keep waiting for it to appear at a reasonable price but it never does). |
Awhile ago it was easy to get online for $10 because of a circuit city clearance. But... that's still not a reasonable price for it. Nothing is. _________________
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oneEIGHTkevin

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Portland
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Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:39 am |
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CV 64 looked a lot more promising from the assets and early previews than the final product. I remember looking at the art for it and getting odd inspiration from Cornell to grow sideburns. And this was when I was in 8th grade and couldn't grow sideburns so I just drew CV fan art in my spiral notebook. I based them off of these original illustrations:
When I finally played the game a year or so later I was kind of going into it with lower standards as the game was a stripped down version of what I was originally promised. And Cornell wasn't even in the damn game anymore! It didn't stop me from buying it however and I actually enjoyed a lot of it. I still remember a bunch of oldschool internet debate about how the game was so fucking stupid because there was skeletons on motorcycles in the 1800's but they actually ended up being a fun enemy to fight.
The song at the title screen was pretty cool in my opinion. The game wasn't filled with any classic tunes other than the Death fight and Dracula fights I don't think.
Later when the 2nd game came out (LOD) and utilized the expansion pack and everything we got the game we should've got in the first place. This game was passable in my book. My only problem was that it reused way too much assets from the first title. I understand it was a remix sorta thing but if you play from the very beginning and see the detail of that intro and the beginning segment where you are cornell on that ship you would wish they would have redone the whole game. Oh and they really fruitified Cornell!!
Just as an addition another thing I really hated about the environments was that your character felt wayy too small compared to the scale of the rooms! A lot of N64 games suffered from this however. _________________
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showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:27 pm |
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I've always wondered why they shit up the concept art. I mean Reinhert looked cool in the original drawings and nowhere else, so why'd they change the artist? If they'd sold the game with those drawings at least in the instruction manual he wouldn't have seemed so gaudy.
I think Cornell's frutification happened when they realized they needed to split the games. Because Cornell was going to be the main character in a "prequel" game, maybe they made him more bishy in a half-assed attempt to look like Alucard. In any case someone definetly made a bad decision that spoiled the brew a bit. It would make sense if Cornell was originally suppossed to be some kind of werewolf that was affiliated with the Castle but turned against it (thus the chain on his foot); that would explain why there were Werecreatures all over the place in the game. |
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Ebrey
Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:14 pm |
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| showka wrote: |
| But the asthetic of the N64 games was much more in line with the series than Lament of Innocence. |
I thought Lament translated the audio/visual elements of the series well. It had one of Yamane's best scores, and faithful renditions of the CV enemies in 3D. Most of the bosses were from previous games as well (technically it didn't have Drac, but that guy had similiar attack patterns). The areas were terribly designed, but they were built around similiar ideas as the ones in SOTN. |
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DonMarco graphics fucker
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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