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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:23 pm |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| Baines wrote: |
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| Also Castlevania IV is already out and is emulated perfectly! Even the password system! |
Castlevania IV isn't a problem game. Decent SNES emulation will handle that.
With NES emulation, you are not just emulating the console, but also emulating the cartridge. There was no memory mapper standard for NES carts, and different companies came up with their own hardware to insert into the cart (and some companies had multiple). Several added additional functionality beyond basic memory bank switching.
Counting pirate carts, there were over 100 known mappers, almost none of which had any available documentation. While these mappers eventually became publically documented, this is why it took so long for some NES games to be emulated, and why some NES emulators had monthly and even weekly updates as more mappers were supported and more info gained.
Castlevania III uses MMC5, a relatively complicated mapper. It was a while before Castlevania III was properly supported, and several emulators lagged behind. Since people playing games cared about Castlevania III, it became one of the indicators of emulator quality. |
Yes, but I've seen no indication whatsoever that this is a problem emulating the mappers. Everything I've read shows that they basically just hacked the game to prevent a few special passwords from working. The password system of the game still works, after all! |
The mapper seems to have managed password encryption - from what I understand, the new system produces different results. They hacked the ROM rather than emulate the mapper. Logic, toups! |
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:40 pm |
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| Deets wrote: |
| Predator Goose wrote: |
Wait, you're saying that they intentionally hacked their own game to remove a feature?! That sounds a lot worse to me actually. |
1) No one really seems to know what they did for sure, but it's definitely not an emulation problem.
2) Who gives a shit. |
The implication is that either a) they intentionally removed a feature from their own game because they thought that it didn't belong. It would set a precedent for revisionism in video games. If you want an example where such a mind set can fuck something up, just look to George Lucas.
Or b) they would market it later as an add on, making you pay an additional fee for the feature. So we'd end up having the games sold to us peicemeal at a premium.
These are of course worst case scenarios. If find it far easier to believe, and am more comforted by, the idea that they just released a buggy version of a game.
_________________
I can no longer shop happily. |
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Deets
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:17 pm |
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| James, they almost certainly hacked the rom, the problem is that there's no way to say for sure what they did or why they did it, because no one's been able to get at the guts of the emulators or roms that nintendo's using yet. What I'm saying is that you can't say that they failed to emulate a mapper because no one knows what the fuck is up with nintendo's emulators (you also haven't referenced anything that says with certainty that a mapper was responsible for the password system in Kid Icarus outside of blog comments), so it could really be just about anything. But since they've clearly reprogrammed the game (you can now use the A+B buttons on the wiimote to lower shop prices), the notion that they also reprogrammed the password system for whatever reason seems considerably more reasonable. |
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gooktime
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: no
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:13 pm |
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| Deets wrote: |
| Yes, of course. Have you looked at the Japanese VC release list? It's got tons of games that were never released in the west. That said, they've mentioned several times that they may bring over games that were never released here eventually. I'll believe it when I see it! |
Actually, looking at it closely, they are kinda erratic on that. Most, if not all of the TG16 games that are on the PAL virtual console never came out in PAL territories and all run at 60hz. Interesting to note, anyhow. |
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:46 pm |
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| Lick Meth wrote: |
| Were you not telling us to "support the PAL market" further up the page? |
Of course. Unless the game in question is butchered for our market. I'm not going to support a crappy port.
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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DarkTetsuya
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:33 am |
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| Deets wrote: |
| Gunstar Heroes is emulated fine (again, outside of europe) and you're worried about Bloodlines? |
Take a closer look at the area select screen... the unselected items just don't look right.
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I didn't buy Mario Kart 64 so I wouldn't know, but for all I know they'll do an update in the future to fix the memory pak issue.
They're "stalling for content" so that they'll still have stuff to release on the service in two or three years. |
Well just so long as releases aren't at the rate of a leaky faucet drip, I won't worry...
DT |
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Deets
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:53 am |
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| DarkTetsuya wrote: |
| Deets wrote: |
| Gunstar Heroes is emulated fine (again, outside of europe) and you're worried about Bloodlines? |
Take a closer look at the area select screen... the unselected items just don't look right.
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Oh, you mean the rainbows? I said "fine" for a reason. |
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DarkTetsuya
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:56 am |
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| Deets wrote: |
| DarkTetsuya wrote: |
| Deets wrote: |
| Gunstar Heroes is emulated fine (again, outside of europe) and you're worried about Bloodlines? |
Take a closer look at the area select screen... the unselected items just don't look right.
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Oh, you mean the rainbows? I said "fine" for a reason. |
Point taken, I was just making sure you knew that it wasn't *quite* perfect... but to me it wasn't enough to detract from enjoying my favorite genny game evar.
DT |
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SplashBeats
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:58 am |
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| Posting in a nerd rage thread. |
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Baines
banned
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:18 pm |
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The question was raised as to why Nintendo doesn't just borrow from open source emulators. One good reason is that people tend to eventually find out and put that info online.
Take, for recent example, the PSP Metal Slug Anthology claims from emu-france and elsewhere (by way of GameFAQs, by way of GameSetWatch.) The roms for Metal Slug 5 are actually bootleg rom dumps that were made available online. The Emu-France post goes further with the implication that the Metal Slug Anthology emulation is based off of MAME, due to rom names and errors matching MAME's. (Such as a case where MAME used a different designation for a chip than it actually has, and the PSP collection uses the MAME name.)
(The GameFAQs post, including the CRCs of the Metal Slug 5 PSP version roms) |
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Broco
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:30 pm |
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| Baines wrote: |
The question was raised as to why Nintendo doesn't just borrow from open source emulators. One good reason is that people tend to eventually find out and put that info online.
Take, for recent example, the PSP Metal Slug Anthology claims from emu-france and elsewhere (by way of GameFAQs, by way of GameSetWatch.) The roms for Metal Slug 5 are actually bootleg rom dumps that were made available online. The Emu-France post goes further with the implication that the Metal Slug Anthology emulation is based off of MAME, due to rom names and errors matching MAME's. (Such as a case where MAME used a different designation for a chip than it actually has, and the PSP collection uses the MAME name.) |
MAME is not true open source and its license explicitly disallows commercial use, so this is illegal. If this is true, the MAME people could potentially sue the Metal Slug Anthology people if they wanted.
Actually most open source licenses have some kind of inconvenient requirement, commonly forcing redistribution of modified source for example. The only license Nintendo might be comfortable with would be no-strings-attached, "BSD license" code, but offhand I can't even think of any emulators under such a license. |
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showka
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:47 pm |
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| I remember Metal Slug Collection for Korean PCs had pure ROMs in them that could be used in Kawaks, which was better than the included emulator which required you to have the CD in the drive. That was a pretty awesome way to get legal ROMs. If Anthology has ROMs in any of its versions, I hope there's some way to get them off the CD and use them with other emulators. |
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JamesE
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:55 pm |
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| Joe wrote: |
| Trolling in a consumer complaint thread. |
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Baines
banned
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:28 pm |
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| Broco wrote: |
| MAME is not true open source and its license explicitly disallows commercial use, so this is illegal. If this is true, the MAME people could potentially sue the Metal Slug Anthology people if they wanted. |
It hasn't been proven that MAME source code is involved, just implied.
Anthology is using bootleg ROM dumps. And it is using the MAME rom names. But that really just means that they grabbed the roms available online rather than do the work themselves. (MAME, by nature of being the emulation juggernaut/Borg, is *the* standard for online rom names.)
Though if they are using the roms available online, they quite likely did at the least use some online emulators as source material as well.
How to prove that varies though. In the case of a Sega release in the past, it was recognizable that CD drive related code matched that of a freeware emulator. (I don't recall if this was a Steve Snake emulator situation, or something else.)
| Broco wrote: |
| Actually most open source licenses have some kind of inconvenient requirement, commonly forcing redistribution of modified source for example. The only license Nintendo might be comfortable with would be no-strings-attached, "BSD license" code, but offhand I can't even think of any emulators under such a license. |
Things get a little messier when you consider that some emulators actually use chip emulation packages created by others. And some draw from other game emulators as well. |
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DarkTetsuya
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:01 pm |
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| Baines wrote: |
The question was raised as to why Nintendo doesn't just borrow from open source emulators. One good reason is that people tend to eventually find out and put that info online.
Take, for recent example, the PSP Metal Slug Anthology claims from emu-france and elsewhere (by way of GameFAQs, by way of GameSetWatch.) The roms for Metal Slug 5 are actually bootleg rom dumps that were made available online. The Emu-France post goes further with the implication that the Metal Slug Anthology emulation is based off of MAME, due to rom names and errors matching MAME's. (Such as a case where MAME used a different designation for a chip than it actually has, and the PSP collection uses the MAME name.)
(The GameFAQs post, including the CRCs of the Metal Slug 5 PSP version roms) |
Actually that reminds me, didn't Tecmo or whoever use such an emulator for a 'Ninja Jajamaru-kun' collection on GBA? This post reminded me of that story.
DT |
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