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| Kazunori Yamauchi, ... |
| I'm in love with my car |
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15% |
[ 8 ] |
| I hate cars. GO GO POWERRANGERS |
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37% |
[ 20 ] |
| why isn't Omega Boost listed on PDs website? |
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47% |
[ 25 ] |
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| Total Votes : 53 |
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Takashi
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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 Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:38 am |
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| Schwere Viper wrote: |
I'm not really getting why crash damage - or even realistic damage - is so important in games like GT. Considering in most races one mistake means at worst a complete loss, and at best a second or third place finish, I figure most players will restart the race rather than try to recover from a big upset. If you take that same mindset and put it in a situation where a realistic damage model applies, I can't see anything different happening. Are people really going to be bothered to finish a race with a knocking engine, dead steering, leaking cooling system, flat tyres etc.? No, they're going to hit start and choose "Restart Race."
Is it a matter of consistency, wanting realistic damage in these games? I suppose I could understand that. But in terms of gameplay I can't think of damage being anything but annoying. |
Obviously, nobody wants to have a piston go in, say, Mariokart, nor do they want to have realistic damage™ since that's not what the game is aiming for.
However.
I can't
really
explain
why
crashing
is something
that needs
to be
in racing sims/games,
but I sure
do love it.
As the pictures already suggest:
In multiplayer it's all about having fun. Obviously it's visual damage only, as that's the setting that makes it fun.
In multi- and singleplayer it's all about having fun racing as well though. There is a difference if you are trailing a car in front of you, even if people claim that they are not bothered by it. Well, maybe that's just me (and a bunch of people I have met, raced with and watched racing), but knowing that your car can take damage will make you …
brake that little earlier,
turn in a little later to avoid contact,
turn in at all rather than guardrailing through the corner (hello, GT?)
not drop off the wheels as much at all,
abort the diving manouvre,
sit behind the car in front of you until you can pass it easier,
take car of that precious metal,
curse the idiot who scratched/hit your car,
etc. etc.
All in all, that list is sporting some pretty good reasons why I think that yes, you need damage in a racing sim/game.
There's nothing like doing five or six laps on Nür, battling for the lead (or even just third place) and never having the balls to dive deep down and force your way through, since that would a.) wreck your car immediately, b.) take you and your (human) opponent out of the race, c.) mean that three or four laps are gone, wasted your time, lost an otherwise excellent race just because you fell back to that "Gran Turismo" behaviour ("I know I CAN get through here, physics will send the enemy off the track since he'll bounce off of me if I drive down the inside, like NOW") like we called it.
You know what the first console game was that made me a worse driver? GT3. If I had driven any other racing sim at that time (PC aside), I probably would have nominated that instead.
And it's not even the fault of the game, mind you. I understand that the AI can't drive like a human opponent, and that they kick you off the track (and dive like I described up there), kicking you out. It's just a PS2, man, has its limits and stuff.
But it's only naturally that you'll be less likely to avoid damage as well, since if the AI is cheating, chances are high that the player will be even less likely to be even more stupid by going out of their way to make your own life harder as it already is.
GT4 punished you (a bit), but it were games like MSR or ENTHUSIA that really made you regret all those things that GT3 (and, to an extent, 4) did teach you. And, even more worse, these games had to do so, since you were dumbed down and didn't even bother to avoid contact.
Why would you care about avoiding enemies anyway? Because that "bump" sound doesn't sound nice? Hardly a reason, as you might agree.
Because it doesn't look nice in replays (this did drive me MAD. Nothing like having a 10-lap race and one enemy crashing in your back in lap nine) - well, that's for the hardcore crowd, I doubt that some people did even bother to watch replays of their races, even if it was just five laps or so.
Thus a new breed of sims entered, ones that punish you for behaviour that partially stems from games that didn't adress this.
MSR, PGR, ENTHUSIA, Forza - the latter one being merciless in its third installment. Quite annoying to have a quick run/lap only to see an enemy catching your slipstream just for a moment and giving you an "!" sign tacked next to your laptime, ending all hopes of a fast lap.
And, yes, it just looks nice to see the front bumper of an 200.000$ car flying as a 74x bhp VW crashed into it. And that was a long post. Sorry.
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Chris B
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:08 am |
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@Takashi: Wow, that reminds me of that Cruden simulator. You can buy one for $191,000 lol.
I'd really like to know if it's possible to build something like that on your own. Not as sophisticated obviously, but just a couple hydraulic cylinders tilting a seat, like in the Outrun cab. |
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evekii
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Germany
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Teflon
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:44 am |
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I was vaguely disappointed this link didn't just point to a Lotus Elise.
Also Gironika is completely on the money re: car damage. |
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Schwere Viper
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Location: Western Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:17 pm |
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Great post, Gironika! You've made me realize I've had the same attitude in racing games without even knowing it, if you get me.
| Gironika wrote: |
| There's nothing like doing five or six laps on Nür, battling for the lead (or even just third place) and never having the balls to dive deep down and force your way through, since that would a.) wreck your car immediately, b.) take you and your (human) opponent out of the race, c.) mean that three or four laps are gone, wasted your time, lost an otherwise excellent race just because you fell back to that "Gran Turismo" behaviour ("I know I CAN get through here, physics will send the enemy off the track since he'll bounce off of me if I drive down the inside, like NOW") like we called it. |
The tension of a hard race where there are actual stakes on the line. I get this absolutely.
So the problem is that Gran Turismo and the behaviour it develops in players just doesn't meld that well with a damage system. Playing GT gets you into a completely different state of mind than racers where you actually have something to lose, because straight up, there isn't that much to lose in GT by driving like an lunatic.
| Gironika wrote: |
| Because it doesn't look nice in replays (this did drive me MAD. Nothing like having a 10-lap race and one enemy crashing in your back in lap nine) - well, that's for the hardcore crowd, I doubt that some people did even bother to watch replays of their races, even if it was just five laps or so. |
Recent Codemasters racing games have really hooked me with their replays, and I think it's a crime that they haven't included anyway to save or edit them. There were so many replays in GRID and DiRT 2 that I would have loved to keep and share. It's a real shame.
Of course, in a game like DiRT 2, a bit of rough and tumble makes for good watching in a replay, don't you think?
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:58 pm |
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| Schwere Viper wrote: |
Great post, Gironika! You've made me realize I've had the same attitude in racing games without even knowing it, if you get me.
The tension of a hard race where there are actual stakes on the line. I get this absolutely. |
Yeah, that sums it up perfectly! It's hard to describe that feeling, but surely everybody has encountered this if one spent some hours in a racing game. You just can't explain this, one has to be in the right mindset to experience this.
| Quote: |
| So the problem is that Gran Turismo and the behaviour it develops in players just doesn't meld that well with a damage system. Playing GT gets you into a completely different state of mind than racers where you actually have something to lose, because straight up, there isn't that much to lose in GT by driving like an lunatic. |
Yeah, but as I pointed out - it really isn't the fault of the third and fourth installment, since the PS2 just couldn't handle the gfx AND damage. GT wasn't designed with that in mind, hence, even if there are some hard feelings, no bad blood.
However.
I still hope that PD can fix the damage in the upcoming GT5 release, but it really seems like they went ahead and tried to include damage somewhere rather than building the engine and the game with it in mind from scratch. The vids (so far), especially with the Ferrari on the Rome circuit (here) still look like it was tacked on. Watch from minute 1'55 onwards and you'll see what I mean… It's nice that they tried, but it just can't be me alone that is a bit underwhelmed by the efforts of PD.
And it doesn't help that they don't have the balls to admit "ok, we fucked it up because we wasted too many hours scanning Nissans, let's have a go with GT6, from scratch"
| Quote: |
Recent Codemasters racing games have really hooked me with their replays, and I think it's a crime that they haven't included anyway to save or edit them. There were so many replays in GRID and DiRT 2 that I would have loved to keep and share. It's a real shame.
Of course, in a game like DiRT 2, a bit of rough and tumble makes for good watching in a replay, don't you think? |
Absolutely! There isn't a thing like sharing the one-of-a-kind drive that you get when rallying, and, naturally, the cases when things go wrong. And in that regard, GRID and DIRT really nailed it, if only they thought about a way to transfer the replays to a stick or something. Forza 3 tried, but the feature is, ahm, a bit … well, let's call it: slow.
And let's be honest, people love to see crashes, and it seems like especially with the WRC cars, it's often one reason why they decide to watch. Especially after Mitsu, Subaru, Peugeot and Skoda went. Can we blame them? I think not, and I am waiting for the next WRC-game to hit the shelves since I loved the predecessor for things like that:
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Chris B
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:48 pm |
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A couple pages ago I posted about my search for PS2 steering wheels, and I begin to think that I have to bite the bullet and get a Driving Force Pro or a red MOMO Force. Mainly because I'm falling in love with Sega Rally 2006 and still haven't found a wheel to play it with. I tried SIX cheap ones so far, and they all more or less destroyed my Time Attack runs. Funnily enough, those where done with my recently modded Dreamcast Arcade Stick. Yet as soon as I switch, my performance gets horribly inconsistent. With the stick I can manage to pull of five good times in a row, but with the wheel I'm lucky if I finish every tenth run.
Has anyone bought the Sega Rally 2006 + Driving Force Pro pack and can tell me if it's worth it? 900° does sound a bit weird for Sega Rally, although I'm not sure how much rotations real rally car steering wheels use.
Oh, only four grand. Still slightly above my monthly budget regimen for videogame peripherals.
@Gironika: I'm not sure if GT needs car damage. For a start, they could just reduce your speed more drastically after collisions. But yeah, it does look cool and is more realistic, so I'm not against it either.
I rather hope they fix the loose entry regulations. In the previous games, you could decimate most of your competition with enough cash. Well, in GT2 they at least tried to counter this with HP restrictions, I just hope they go for something similar in GT5. |
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RobotRocker
C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Location: Death Egg Zone
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drobe
My Brothers!
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:58 am |
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| Takashi wrote: |
| A movie with a robot |
I wonder how a crash would feel. Hopefully not like a crash.
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Teflon
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:07 am |
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| Chris B wrote: |
Has anyone bought the Sega Rally 2006 + Driving Force Pro pack and can tell me if it's worth it? 900° does sound a bit weird for Sega Rally, although I'm not sure how much rotations real rally car steering wheels use.
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If I'm not mistaken the DFPro can be set to different lock ranges to deal with this. |
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:22 pm |
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Yeah, except of the multiplayer achievements, these are some easy achievements. Unfortunately, there won't be a demo before the release. Maybe a few months later. |
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:39 pm |
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| Chris B wrote: |
A couple pages ago I posted about my search for PS2 steering wheels, and I begin to think that I have to bite the bullet and get a Driving Force Pro or a red MOMO Force. Mainly because I'm falling in love with Sega Rally 2006 and still haven't found a wheel to play it with. I tried SIX cheap ones so far, and they all more or less destroyed my Time Attack runs. Funnily enough, those where done with my recently modded Dreamcast Arcade Stick. Yet as soon as I switch, my performance gets horribly inconsistent. With the stick I can manage to pull of five good times in a row, but with the wheel I'm lucky if I finish every tenth run.
Has anyone bought the Sega Rally 2006 + Driving Force Pro pack and can tell me if it's worth it? 900° does sound a bit weird for Sega Rally, although I'm not sure how much rotations real rally car steering wheels use.
Oh, only four grand. Still slightly above my monthly budget regimen for videogame peripherals.
@Gironika: I'm not sure if GT needs car damage. For a start, they could just reduce your speed more drastically after collisions. But yeah, it does look cool and is more realistic, so I'm not against it either.
I rather hope they fix the loose entry regulations. In the previous games, you could decimate most of your competition with enough cash. Well, in GT2 they at least tried to counter this with HP restrictions, I just hope they go for something similar in GT5. |
potentially, car nuts would want damage so that when they drive an LMP car in which literally every part of it is built for the wind tunnel----losing a mirror noticeably affects the car's handling. |
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Chris B
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:44 pm |
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| Teflon wrote: |
| Chris B wrote: |
900° does sound a bit weird for Sega Rally, although I'm not sure how much rotations real rally car steering wheels use.
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If I'm not mistaken the DFPro can be set to different lock ranges to deal with this. |
Why would they sell the game bundled with the "Pro" version instead of the regular GT Force wheel, and then not make use of its most prominent feature. Also, I read that rally car steering wheels can do around 1.5 rotations lock-to-lock, and older ones even more, so it's not that unreasonable.
@Toptube: That's a good point, though I doubt GT5 will go that far. |
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Teflon
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:52 pm |
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I'm just saying if you find turning the wheel aaaaaall the way round to be slow and awkward you can just put it in uh, 200 degree mode I think it was for less yachting-like action.
I wish real cars would come with thumbsticks and triggers already this whole steering wheel business is some 18th century bullshit. |
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:40 pm |
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| Teflon wrote: |
I'm just saying if you find turning the wheel aaaaaall the way round to be slow and awkward you can just put it in uh, 200 degree mode I think it was for less yachting-like action.
I wish real cars would come with thumbsticks and triggers already this whole steering wheel business is some 18th century bullshit. |
This would be one of the things I would want to address in the racing games podcast.
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Teflon
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:17 am |
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| The speed vs. precision/feedback aspect of pads vs. wheels or alternative real-life car control schemes? |
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:47 pm |
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| Yeah, when do we want to do the racing game podcast? |
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:45 pm |
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| geinou wrote: |
| Yeah, when do we want to do the racing game podcast? |
well, who wants to join? if its just us two people, that'd be a bit, ahm, niche? Would make finding a timeslot easier though.
| Teflon wrote: |
| The speed vs. precision/feedback aspect of pads vs. wheels or alternative real-life car control schemes? |
If I had to do it right now and immediately, the first and, in regards to modern cars, the second.
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:26 pm |
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| Gironika wrote: |
| geinou wrote: |
| Yeah, when do we want to do the racing game podcast? |
well, who wants to join? if its just us two people, that'd be a bit, ahm, niche? Would make finding a timeslot easier though.
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Yeah, we should at least have (with us) 4 or 5 people, I would say. So, who wants to talk about racing games? :) Then we could look for a timeslot and start a Doodle-thing. |
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:31 am |
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I'm in for the racing podcast. I'm all settled in SF now and have my computer setup so I can do this now!
Just let me know what software I'm going to need. |
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Schwere Viper
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Location: Western Australia
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:49 pm |
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| Yeah, I think I could make time for this. I've played a lot of racing games, that is for sure. |
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:14 pm |
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Yeah, that sounds great.
@Toptube: You just need Ventrilo. In this thread, B Coma wrote everything you need to know for setting up the software etc:
http://forums.selectbutton.net/viewtopic.php?t=24308
Now we just need to start this Doodle-thing to find the right for all of us. Maybe we could do it next weekend? |
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:11 pm |
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| geinou wrote: |
| Now we just need to start this Doodle-thing to find the right for all of us. Maybe we could do it next weekend? |
I'd say so, next weekend is long enough for everyone to set them machines up their bombs to be ready to move every ZIG etc.
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:39 pm |
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well the hosts are questionable, but I gotta admit it looks like they will do some cool stuff and the CARnematography is looking pretty good.
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:20 am |
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Oh hell, totally forgot about the podcast. Uhm, who can do that Doodle thing (we should probably start a thread in the Axe as well, so that anyone who's interested in doing this but didn't read it here in this thread can sign-up).
Also, who wants to be the host? I'm not very good in that stuff, sadface. |
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shnozlak
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: pushing crates in the sewer level
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:27 am |
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| Teflon wrote: |
I'm just saying if you find turning the wheel aaaaaall the way round to be slow and awkward you can just put it in uh, 200 degree mode I think it was for less yachting-like action.
I wish real cars would come with thumbsticks and triggers already this whole steering wheel business is some 18th century bullshit. |
Stick representing the full range of potion makes it too sensitive at higher speeds if its a 1:1 association. If its not 1:1, corrected for speed or if the in game, virtual steering wheel has to slowly catch up to where the stick is pointing (ala GT) you have to guess the current steering angle and your precision drops. Not to mention loss of critical wheel traction feedback.
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:49 pm |
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| Toptube wrote: |
| well the hosts are questionable, but I gotta admit it looks like they will do some cool stuff and the CARnematography is looking pretty good. |
I just hope that they are avoiding copying the whole format and try to come up with something new. Like, that challenge … I've seen a fair share of challenges over the last seven years and it's hard to make them the "bestest ever" every time one shows up again. That evo in the snow-action (as well as that police car going sideways) makes me hope though.
And yeah, someone who knows his way around this tech should do that poll time thing.
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RobotRocker
C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Location: Death Egg Zone
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:21 pm |
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FUCK |
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:52 pm |
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| Looks like they finally figured something out! |
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:23 am |
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It's marvellous to see how PD suddenly got their hands on a Lambo Miura and the LM Bugatti configuration. The downside would the 8/8 in the upper left corner, but seeing the names listed on the right side, I guess/hope that's online only.
Maybe, just maybe they really got their act together after being beaten to it by turn10. Release date is 3rd november 2010 or so, not that far away!
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:12 am |
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| really, your either an idiot for blatantly not having your car company represented in GT or you made a deal with someone else a long time ago before GT hit and are still held under by it. |
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:38 pm |
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| Quote: |
| Yamauchi also attempted to clear up a little confusion about GT5's car collection, which is split into Premium class and Standard class cars. The former is fully and realistically modeled, down to the cockpit, and built from scratch for the PlayStation 3. Standard class cars, however, do not feature cockpit view. Polyphony Digital attempted to add a catch all black frame for Standard class cars to offer a cockpit view, but Yamauchi said two months worth of development on that didn't work out as hoped. |
As expected...
| Quote: |
| We've already talked a bit about Gran Turismo 5's custom course generator, which can spit out racetracks based on a series of parameters and theme-based options. But Yamauchi confirmed that players will be able to do more than just create unique courses and take them for test drives. They can be shared with other Gran Turismo 5 players over the network and can be used in online races. |
This is actually quite cool. Hope you can do something great with the editor. |
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:02 pm |
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| Toptube wrote: |
| really, your either an idiot for blatantly not having your car company represented in GT or you made a deal with someone else a long time ago before GT hit and are still held under by it. |
Yeah, remember those rumors that Company X has bought ALL rights for X or Y (namely: Porsche and Ferrari) and *bang* suddenly you saw games having them left and right? I couldn't imagine a car maker having such a deal nowadays, especially considering the Skyline R35 Type-V featured in Forza 3 which screams "someone only bought the rights for the normal spec version".
Anyway, I'm not sure which game went ahead and set the basis for 90% of the cars we see emerging today, but it probably is some of the PGRs, Sega GTs, what-have-you-not or Forza 1, which mingled with the GT4-part of the equation for FM2 that prompted GT5 and FM3 to use that as a basis. Same with the car-damage-thing, it suddenly seems like every car maker has decided to let the carnage begin. It is a damn good time to be car-nut, it seems!
| geinou wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yamauchi also attempted to clear up a little confusion about GT5's car collection, which is split into Premium class and Standard class cars. The former is fully and realistically modeled, down to the cockpit, and built from scratch for the PlayStation 3. Standard class cars, however, do not feature cockpit view. Polyphony Digital attempted to add a catch all black frame for Standard class cars to offer a cockpit view, but Yamauchi said two months worth of development on that didn't work out as hoped. |
As expected...
| Quote: |
| We've already talked a bit about Gran Turismo 5's custom course generator, which can spit out racetracks based on a series of parameters and theme-based options. But Yamauchi confirmed that players will be able to do more than just create unique courses and take them for test drives. They can be shared with other Gran Turismo 5 players over the network and can be used in online races. |
This is actually quite cool. Hope you can do something great with the editor. |
Generator or Editor?
An editor really is the thing that you want in that game, let's just hope it's not just a randomizing-thingy that is like, say, the Lotus 3 one. F-Zero X-esque would be nice!
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:13 pm |
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| Doodle up here. Indicate it you want to do the racing one. |
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:59 pm |
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The track maker sounds like 2 things to me:
Well this first one is more of hope that's hinted at:
1.building a track from scratch, piece by piece.
2. generating a track based on available paramters/sliders --- which you can probably tweak from there with the aforementioned editor.
both modes probably just fill out the sidelines with random racing shit. I'm wondering how much control you will have over stuff like elevation changes and the specific shape of turns. |
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:06 pm |
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so what points are we going to hit on with our "Racing" podcast.
I've got a shortlist of games to mention, but I think we should have few ideas for topics to jump around on. |
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Ronnoc
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:45 am |
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| Someone talk about Extreme-G! |
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:05 am |
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| the two china rally course in Dirt 2 are probably the best in the game. but at the same time man, fuck those courses. |
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Schwere Viper
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Location: Western Australia
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:29 am |
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I think talking about the divide between arcade-style and simulation racing games - and how it's noticably getting smaller - would be interesting.
We could also cover some of the mutations of the genre. The Road Rash series, maybe? Could Twisted Metal be construed as a 'race'?
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Blog: Machines That Sing |
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