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stotelheim
The Guy Who Will Give a Kiss for ₩ 5000
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: swan diving off the tongues of color coded giants
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 Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:04 pm |
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For me, it's about quality software, security and privacy.
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:52 pm |
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| stotelheim wrote: |
| For me, it's about quality software, security and privacy. |
I guess that makes sense. The software bit would take some searching, I imagine, but the security and privacy boost is indisputable.
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Laurel Soup
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Hitsville, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:15 am |
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I haven't had to compile much, and when I have it was pretty easy.
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:24 am |
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@Toups and DeusJester:
So you've tried one distro. It didn't work out. Try another one! You can't say Linux doesn't work for you just because one distro didn't.
Windows works well? Well, when you've turned off all the annoying crap, sure! Doesn't make it any less of a resource-hungry OS. Linux runs much faster if you don't choose a resource-hungry window manager (Gnome, KDE,...).
Try a Puppy Linux LiveCD! Even my brother's new laptop bought a week ago works with it, with all hardware detected!
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:44 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| You can't say Linux doesn't work for you just because one distro didn't. |
Got one that will detect and run an nVidia graphics card and Sound Blaster 24, work with Firefox, run MAME, Steam, World of Warcraft, Photoshop, F.E.A.R., assorted indie games, uTorrent, Media Player Classic, and WinAmp? In other words, got one that has near-universal compatibility with Windows programs without having to do a lot of programming gymnastics just to get basic things to work? If so, sign me up.
The only reason I don't use Linux is because 90% of the stuff I use doesn't work on it, and it's simply not worth re-downloading what are usually inferior or bootstrapped versions of (or drivers for) the stuff I use. For the record, this is also why I won't be switching to Vista any time soon, either. I have no reason to whatsoever; it would actually be detrimental for me to move to Vista at this point, because most of my shit would instantly stop working.
Windows XP, on the other hand, could use three times its current memory, be a fourth as fast and electrocute my balls at random intervals while I use it; it runs my programs, and other OSes do not. Period. Points about the efficiency of Linux can be (and I'm sure are) perfectly valid, but it means nothing to me. That's like saying "This car gets 200 miles to the gallon, is crash proof, has heated seats and a blowjob simulator...But you can't drive it on roads."
It's the same reason I don't use a Mac (besides the price). I've got no love for WinXP, but that's what I need if I want to do all this stuff.
I can see the usefulness of Linux if you do zero computer gaming, but that just ain't the case for me, and there's pretty much no way around it. It renders Linux 100% useless for me. Honestly, if I could find a distro that would run any game windows XP could, I'd be willing to work out getting the drivers running and swapping out a few other programs to make the switch. Right now, though, it's like you can more-or-less approximate everything WinXP can do with Linux except games, where Linux is just completely dead in the water.
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Baron Patsy
whiny, oversensitive, socially awkward
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:17 am |
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| DeusJester wrote: |
| BenoitRen wrote: |
| You can't say Linux doesn't work for you just because one distro didn't. |
Got one that will detect and run an nVidia graphics card and Sound Blaster 24, work with Firefox, run MAME, Steam, World of Warcraft, Photoshop, F.E.A.R., assorted indie games, uTorrent, Media Player Classic, and WinAmp? In other words, got one that has near-universal compatibility with Windows programs without having to do a lot of programming gymnastics just to get basic things to work? If so, sign me up.
The only reason I don't use Linux is because 90% of the stuff I use doesn't work on it, and it's simply not worth re-downloading what are usually inferior or bootstrapped versions of (or drivers for) the stuff I use. For the record, this is also why I won't be switching to Vista any time soon, either. I have no reason to whatsoever; it would actually be detrimental for me to move to Vista at this point, because most of my shit would instantly stop working.
Windows XP, on the other hand, could use three times its current memory, be a fourth as fast and electrocute my balls at random intervals while I use it; it runs my programs, and other OSes do not. Period. Points about the efficiency of Linux can be (and I'm sure are) perfectly valid, but it means nothing to me. That's like saying "This car gets 200 miles to the gallon, is crash proof, has heated seats and a blowjob simulator...But you can't drive it on roads."
It's the same reason I don't use a Mac (besides the price). I've got no love for WinXP, but that's what I need if I want to do all this stuff.
I can see the usefulness of Linux if you do zero computer gaming, but that just ain't the case for me, and there's pretty much no way around it. It renders Linux 100% useless for me. Honestly, if I could find a distro that would run any game windows XP could, I'd be willing to work out getting the drivers running and swapping out a few other programs to make the switch. Right now, though, it's like you can more-or-less approximate everything WinXP can do with Linux except games, where Linux is just completely dead in the water. |
You know, I've been told that WINE can run a lot of modern games very well. And there are actually quite a few games that run in Linux! All of id's games and games that use the Unreal (I think) engine are Linux-compatible, as well as a few other high-profile games.
In other news, I am addicted to installing optional packages in Ubuntu. The Synaptic Package Manager makes it so easy! I've already installed over three hundred megs worth of optional stuff, and I'm only into the C's!
I have a morse code teaching program! And a million different games! This is neat! |
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:35 am |
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| Baron Patsy wrote: |
| You know, I've been told that WINE can run a lot of modern games very well. And there are actually quite a few games that run in Linux! All of id's games and games that use the Unreal (I think) engine are Linux-compatible, as well as a few other high-profile games. |
Yeah, id is the big exception to the rule (kinda like how all Blizzard games are hybrid Mac compatible).
Didn't know about WINE, though! Hmm.
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Baron Patsy
whiny, oversensitive, socially awkward
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:40 am |
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| DeusJester wrote: |
| Baron Patsy wrote: |
| You know, I've been told that WINE can run a lot of modern games very well. And there are actually quite a few games that run in Linux! All of id's games and games that use the Unreal (I think) engine are Linux-compatible, as well as a few other high-profile games. |
Yeah, id is the big exception to the rule (kinda like how all Blizzard games are hybrid Mac compatible).
Didn't know about WINE, though! Hmm. |
I would bet that the id thing is Carmack's doing. That seems like the sort of thing he'd do. He posts on Slashdot, occasionally! And is my personal idol! |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:28 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
@Toups and DeusJester:
So you've tried one distro. It didn't work out. Try another one! You can't say Linux doesn't work for you just because one distro didn't.
Windows works well? Well, when you've turned off all the annoying crap, sure! Doesn't make it any less of a resource-hungry OS. Linux runs much faster if you don't choose a resource-hungry window manager (Gnome, KDE,...).
Try a Puppy Linux LiveCD! Even my brother's new laptop bought a week ago works with it, with all hardware detected! |
Actually I tried another distro (can't remember what it's called ATM) and found it even more confusing. The fact that Ubuntu is supposed to be "linux for human beings" doesn't really help my perception, either. If the "user-friendly" model is so hard to use, what does that mean about the other ones?
I know that Windows has shitloads of flaws and problems and by raw measure of its quality shouldn't even be the most popular OS, but at the same time none of its flaws are big enough for me to care. So it's resource hungry. Well, I've got a decently powerful laptop and everything runs pretty smoothly on it anyway.
At this points it's less that linux doesn't look appealling and more that I don't see the worth of trying to learn a new OS, even if it is superior. On the other hand I don't see myself upgrading to Vista pretty much... ever, so unless I go Mac I guess I'll have to learn linux eventually.
Until then I'm content with little XP laptop.
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Baron Patsy
whiny, oversensitive, socially awkward
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:31 am |
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| I think I'm going to have to switch back to XP, unfortunately. The power management is really bad on this laptop, and I would like it if the bottom of my laptop didn't melt. And there's a problem with my graphics card, resulting in absolutely dismal performance in just about everything even remotely graphics-intensive. |
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robotaks
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:00 am |
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| Patsy are you going to try any other linux distros? i mean, since you've switched to windows it would seem like a bad idea now. |
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Broco
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:54 pm |
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| Baron Patsy wrote: |
| DeusJester wrote: |
| Baron Patsy wrote: |
| You know, I've been told that WINE can run a lot of modern games very well. And there are actually quite a few games that run in Linux! All of id's games and games that use the Unreal (I think) engine are Linux-compatible, as well as a few other high-profile games. |
Yeah, id is the big exception to the rule (kinda like how all Blizzard games are hybrid Mac compatible).
Didn't know about WINE, though! Hmm. |
I would bet that the id thing is Carmack's doing. That seems like the sort of thing he'd do. He posts on Slashdot, occasionally! And is my personal idol! |
Yeah he was my idol too when I was a teenager. He is a smart guy.
But after a while I realized that there are many other programmers just as good as him, just less famous. Anyway he is just an Aspergered hermit programmer that doesn't even care about games (or indeed anything outside of rockets and graphics programming technicalities).
(Carmack anecdote: I read in Masters of Doom that when he was a teen, he brewed a makeshift explosive in his home chemistry lab, exploded a storefront window, and stole some computers. True story, apparently! I find that story sums up Carmack somehow.) |
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gooktime
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: no
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:10 am |
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| If you want to command line nerd out while having a super friendly system there's always OSX :) |
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km
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Minor character in a frame story
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:32 am |
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Gentoo is a lot of fun, and very rewarding, but even though I am an avid user, it's not what you're looking for if you just want something to get some work done, though once it's set up, it's smooth sailing.
So, patsy: If you have a while to kill (as in, a few days), play with Gentoo! You will learn a lot!
It really helps if you have another computer available though, in case you get stuck in text mode. Or you want to know what to do next after getting the basic system installed. These days I end up not needing it, but I've also been using Gentoo for like two years now. It's not hard to set up, but since you're just at console, at least for a while, it can be scary if you're not used to it. If another computer isn't an option, there are text-mode browsers, as well as AIM and IRC clients, so you're not totally screwed if you don't mind the somewhat alien feel of text only.
There are lots of people who won't mind giving you a hand with it. I find the Gentoo community to be excellent, and very willing to fix their own problems. When I see Ubuntu, it looks like the blind leading the blind :/
DJ: One problem is you seem to demand certain applications from windows and are unwilling to investigate alternatives. If there's a popular win32 application, there's often a very suitable replacement. For example:
uTorrent -> Ktorrent
Media Player Classic -> MPlayer
WinAMP -> amaroK
Some things you are going to need wine for as they are win32 native. Steam, WoW, F.E.A.R... Depending on what you do with PS, you might be OK with The GIMP (which really, really needs a better name). Honestly though, Linux gaming isn't really there, and I definitely have a heavily customized WinXP install on both my laptop and desktop.
Firefox and MAME are platform agnostic.
I have an Audigy 2 ZS Platinum, it worked automagically. Getting nVidia drivers to work takes about 3 minutes (in Gentoo, it's typing 1 command, and then editing a config file).
Really though, it seems like you sort of locked yourself into the windows platform. I'm not one of the zealots that actually gives a shit, but it seems that Linux, in it's current iteration, isn't what you're really looking for in an OS. So, um, yeah, you were right in what you said earlier! I was just agreeing from the other side of the fence, I guess.
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Kappuru
forum bishonen
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:40 am |
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I edit photographs. Linux really sucks for this. Things are NOT streamlined and simple. My digital workflow would be so much more complicated with linux..
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:44 pm |
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Yeah, when it comes to gaming, Linux isn't there yet. Then there's also those 3D graphics cards problems because those greedy manufacturers don't want to open-source their drivers or give away documentation.
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| I know that Windows has shitloads of flaws and problems and by raw measure of its quality shouldn't even be the most popular OS, but at the same time none of its flaws are big enough for me to care. |
Not even the fact that Windows XP is like a big hole in your security? Maybe when you get worm/virus/malware you will think differently.
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| So it's resource hungry. Well, I've got a decently powerful laptop and everything runs pretty smoothly on it anyway. |
I don't believe that it runs that smooth. My WinXP laptop is decently powerful as well, and while most of the time it runs smoothly, often it isn't. Then again, I probably use it for more than you do, since I mainly use it for school, being a Computer Science student and all.
But Linux can make it even smoother, more efficient, and best of all, open. Depending on an OS producer for support and managing your files is not a good idea.
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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skonrad
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Vizzyvancizzouver
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:24 pm |
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I understand nVIDIA's reluctance - I base my decision to buy nVIDIA cards on the fact that they have things like PBO support in their drivers, and that their drivers handle large textures in Open GL more gracefully. I'm sure there's also some custom driver code for the Gelato project that they'd be less than thrilled about making open at this point. I think calling it pure greed is kind of silly.
Linux is only going to be more efficient if your core applications are actually developed in Linux centric environments, or as multi-platform applications with good linux implementations. I'm using a Windows developed application with a shoddy Linux implementation relying on shoddy Linux graphics drivers - so I'm unlikely to switch over completely any time soon. If I was primarily doing word processing and web browsing, or if I felt like coding something that wasn't Windows centric, then I'd use Linux. But yeah - it's just the reality right now that it's not going to work for me. |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:37 am |
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Actually, when it comes to gaming, Linux IS there. The problem is, good luck getting anything to work, because frontend support is HORRIBLE. Downright shit-tastic even. Most front-ends for things like emulators or games are years old, have little support, and no updates.
I tried to like Linux; no, that's wrong. I like Linux. I just hate the fact that I can't run anything in it because there are no good frontends.
*head* *bang* *keyboard*
Switched back to XP... things are back to normal; sort of.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:55 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
Yeah, when it comes to gaming, Linux isn't there yet. Then there's also those 3D graphics cards problems because those greedy manufacturers don't want to open-source their drivers or give away documentation.
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| I know that Windows has shitloads of flaws and problems and by raw measure of its quality shouldn't even be the most popular OS, but at the same time none of its flaws are big enough for me to care. |
Not even the fact that Windows XP is like a big hole in your security? Maybe when you get worm/virus/malware you will think differently.
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| So it's resource hungry. Well, I've got a decently powerful laptop and everything runs pretty smoothly on it anyway. |
I don't believe that it runs that smooth. My WinXP laptop is decently powerful as well, and while most of the time it runs smoothly, often it isn't. Then again, I probably use it for more than you do, since I mainly use it for school, being a Computer Science student and all.
But Linux can make it even smoother, more efficient, and best of all, open. Depending on an OS producer for support and managing your files is not a good idea. |
Yeah, I mostly use my laptop for the internet.
And the security problems haven't been a problem for me yet. I'm pretty scrupulous about what I do online.
Granted if I had to do any sort of computer science like stuff I'd probably use linux.
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Hot Stott Bot
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:24 am |
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Guys, I really like how I roll.
I run XP with a fancily setup Cygwin install and have another computer running Linux that I just remain constantly SSHed into and stuff.
I would not really want to run Linux as my main desktop solution, personally, but pretty much anything I would want to run on Linux that doesn't have an equivelant in windows I can just install on my other machine and run over SSH... or often times I can compile it in Cygwin and run it locally, even!
I mean this wouldn't work that great for running big applications like web browsing or watching movies, but hey, firefox and vlc are damn fine windows software if you ask me. |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:13 am |
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| Hot Stott Bot wrote: |
Guys, I really like how I roll.
I run XP with a fancily setup Cygwin install and have another computer running Linux that I just remain constantly SSHed into and stuff.
I would not really want to run Linux as my main desktop solution, personally, but pretty much anything I would want to run on Linux that doesn't have an equivelant in windows I can just install on my other machine and run over SSH... or often times I can compile it in Cygwin and run it locally, even!
I mean this wouldn't work that great for running big applications like web browsing or watching movies, but hey, firefox and vlc are damn fine windows software if you ask me. |
Point taken... but both VLC and Firefox work quite well in Linux.
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Hot Stott Bot
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:08 pm |
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Right, right, my point is that all the "biggest and best" software is cross-platform these days, and linux is so well architectured that all the little things that aren't cross-platform can either be emulated or run remotely!
Admittedly, I'm speaking purely in terms of compatability... you really lose out on hardware resources and cost like that, and getting the security setup properly was a bitch-and-a-half.
I guess I'm just saying I can't live without either, so I just run both Linux and Windows all the time... essentially. |
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Duckzero
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Microsoft Land
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:18 pm |
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| Talbain wrote: |
Actually, when it comes to gaming, Linux IS there. The problem is, good luck getting anything to work, because frontend support is HORRIBLE. Downright shit-tastic even. Most front-ends for things like emulators or games are years old, have little support, and no updates.
I tried to like Linux; no, that's wrong. I like Linux. I just hate the fact that I can't run anything in it because there are no good frontends.
*head* *bang* *keyboard*
Switched back to XP... things are back to normal; sort of. |
I run Edgy Eft and XP in a dual boot set up, and I understand how you feel. I love wine for what it can do, but the problem is that it's just not easy to figure out how to get it to work with random things and games. If there was some kind of front end installer that at least TRIED to help you get the configuration right i would be very happy. Frontends for other apps are exactly as you described.
Wine is a great project and should become more of an integral part of a distro that's targeted for switchers, and therefore it should be a priority to ensure that any user can figure it out.
A better idea would be use virtualization in way similar to X11 on OSX. If you double click on a windows app it uses whatever bits of windows you have on an image or on another partition so things will work.
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:21 pm |
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| skonrad wrote: |
| I understand nVIDIA's reluctance |
Well, it wouldn't be a problem if they would make some good drivers themselves for Linux.
| Talbain wrote: |
| Actually, when it comes to gaming, Linux IS there. The problem is, good luck getting anything to work, because frontend support is HORRIBLE. |
Can you explain this in more detail, please? I want to know about this.
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| Granted if I had to do any sort of computer science like stuff I'd probably use linux. |
I don't use Linux on my laptop. Well, I tried the Puppy Linux LiveCD, but for some reason, our router doesn't want to give it an IP address. :( Anyway, what they want you to use at school on your laptop is mostly Windows stuff, so... And I don't dare trying to get my wireless network card to work in Linux, when I hear how much of a pain it is.
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
Last edited by BenoitRen on Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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km
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Minor character in a frame story
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:52 pm |
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nVidia's drivers have never given me problems?
What am I doing so horribly wrong?
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vi) RPGs (Role-Playing Games)
For adolescents; half-formed personalities roaming (in packs) in search of identity. |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:47 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| skonrad wrote: |
| I understand nVIDIA's reluctance |
Well, it wouldn't be a problem if they would make some good drivers themselves for Linux.
| Talbain wrote: |
| Actually, when it comes to gaming, Linux IS there. The problem is, good luck getting anything to work, because frontend support is HORRIBLE. |
Can you explain this in more detail, please? I want to know about this.
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| Granted if I had to do any sort of computer science like stuff I'd probably use linux. |
I don't use Linux on my laptop. Well, I tried the Puppy Linux LiveCD, but for some reason, our router doesn't want to give it an IP address. :( Anyway, what they want you to use at school on your laptop is mostly Windows stuff, so... And I don't dare trying to get my wireless network card to work in Linux, when I hear how much of a pain it is. |
I'm a guy who's been using Windows all my life. I likes my frontends. I like GUI, screw command prompts. Yet, for the past two days I've been racking my brain to learn all the little commands and things that I need to do just to get things to compile and install on Xubuntu. Granted, I could just use the auto-installing packages they provide, and it's useful if all you want to install are the little "packages" and not actual programs. The problem is, once you get to programs that are even moderately niche (games, for example), frontend support (GUI as opposed to command-line interface, or CLI) drops to almost nothing. There is gxmame, and that works great for MAME. The problem is there's nothing like this for Mednafen, which is arguably the best GBA/GBC/GB/WSC emulator available for Linux. Thus, you're stuck trying to figure things out through CLI, and it's just GRATING when you're used to using GUIs.
One good thing I will mention, is that with Cedega, I got Guxt to work! I wasn't so lucky with Cave Story though... in fact, in general, Cedega sucks; Wine's alright, but it's so much slower than native Windows programs that I'm surprised people praise it as much as they do.
I want to use ZSNES, but when I run ZSNES, I come to find out that its sound support is shit, and it runs like molasses. An SNES emulator that is low-end and yet I can't get it to even run at full speed (the sound skips a lot). Snes9X yields similar results.
Optimization is another huge problem. Almost every program that I've attempted to install has not had the dependencies needed right off the bat. I had to go hunting for some of them (such as the GTK libraries, which displays itself as a C++ compiler library error, rather than a GTK library error), and others were more accessible, but still vague. Searching for sdl-config... it doesn't exist, but libsdl does! and you're just supposed to know that it's the right library... how?
There is no Genesis emulator. None, nada, zip. Gens exists. Gens sucks however. Kega won't run in Wine. Nintendo 64 emulator? Again, not so much. PSX, well, there's ePSXe... if you can get it to run. Saturn? Again, good luck. PS2 - well, in theory PCSX2 should run, but I don't have a computer powerful enough to run it with Windows, so I doubt Linux would be better. Dreamcast? Nothing. I've also only touched upon how many Windows games just don't work very well in any programs are available. Seriously, if you're going to use Linux as your main OS; consider VMWare. Actually, don't consider it, get it, because you'll want it eventually.
Overall, it is not the OS that I have a problem with, but the access barriers to using the OS are so high that unless you're a programmer, I would still seriously not recommend using Xubuntu or Ubuntu... or any Linux distro really. I had to get help from a friend of mine who'd been using Linux for a long time just to get most of this stuff done too. What's worse, is that there's no tutorial to tell you stuff like the following.
This is how to "compile" source code.
tar zxpvf blah.tar.gz
OR
tar jxpvf blah.tar.bz2
OR
tar xpvf blah.tar
cd blah
./configure (options here, normally you don't need any)
make (or follow instructions given by ./configure, i.e. makedepend && make)
sudo make install
This may seem simple enough, but no one TOLD me how to do any of this from the beginning, a lot of it was trial and error and experimentation, as well as help from friends. Also, what's not here is that during this process, errors pop up; and they pop up often.
This is just something simple; I'll not even get into the more complex processes.
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Hot Stott Bot
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:21 am |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| Overall, it is not the OS that I have a problem with, but the access barriers to using the OS are so high that unless you're a programmer, I would still seriously not recommend using Xubuntu or Ubuntu... or any Linux distro really. |
Well, I am of the opinion that Linux is essentially an OS for programmers.
I mean, I must have written thousands and thousands of lines of code on any Linux machine I've ever had just as part of my environment. |
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Baron Patsy
whiny, oversensitive, socially awkward
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:55 am |
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See, I find all of the stuff that Talbain is talking about greatly interesting and even fun in some cases. I love futzing around in the terminal and setting things up myself. It gives me a sense of accomplishment that I don't get when I click the "install" button in Windows.
I recommend you find a nice big tutorial, print it out, and keep it next to you at all times. Or, hell, get a book on it, if you want. Stick with it. |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:14 am |
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No, I find it terribly interesting as well; it's just that Linux programs aren't really there when it comes to games, and that's primarily what I use my computer for (I've literally got thousands of games on it).
So, I now use Linux more as a place to learn more about the programming environment... but, I dunno. It's just not an everyday OS for me, considering how much writing I need to do and how ephemeral my ideas are; I need an OS that's a bit more accessible than Linux distros currently are. They may get there someday, but I think it'll be awhile unless the Microsoft monopoly dies.
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gooktime
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: no
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:35 am |
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Seriously though, you guys who want to have your cake and eat it with a unix-based programmer centric OS that is also friendly and hard to break should get OSX.
For example, the entire ruby on rails team use macs in their work. |
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:52 pm |
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| gooktime wrote: |
| Seriously though, you guys who want to have your cake and eat it with a unix-based programmer centric OS that is also friendly and hard to break should get OSX. |
Exact same complaint I have with Linux: No games, or if they are there, they're either a pain in the ass to get running properly or they suck.
Unless you're talking about Blizzard games, and those still work fine on Windows.
For a gamer, nobody has yet to offer any legitimate reason to move away from XP, and I'm pretty sure such a reason doesn't exist.
That's not a bad thing! I'm not shitting all over other OSes. If I had something that I could move to with a minimum of fuss, I'd do it just so I wouldn't be using XP. BUT. The simple fact of the matter is that it's going to be a fuckload of work to get most of my stuff up and running on any other OS, and that's if it'll run at all, which is a rather dark shade of "maybe" at best.
So yeah. As cool as I find the whole concept of Linux, XP is a necessary evil at this point.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:36 pm |
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Just don't upgrade to Vista. Shit stops working real fast. =/
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:24 pm |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| Just don't upgrade to Vista. Shit stops working real fast. =/ |
Oh I have zero intention of moving to Vista until it becomes the new XP.
Basically, my OS is whichever is most popular, by virtue of the fact that it will be able to run the most stuff by default (which is honestly all I give a fuck about). Vista...Yeah, no. Not yet, and not for a while.
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Hot Stott Bot
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:16 pm |
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I mean honestly, XP was really just another iteration of Windows NT philosophy.
Think about how long it took for that platform to become the standard!
Vista is kind of a new philosophy, so I expect that it will be another OS or two before that becomes the standard.
Then again, Vista is a lot closer to NT/2k/XP than 98 was...
So...
Uuh...
Yeah.
Anyways, Linux and games:
Really, it just isn't designed for games. X11's architecture is not good at high throughput. Same thing for the way audio streams work.
I mean, part of the reason Linux makes for good security is that everything is so compartmentalized, so it doesn't like to grant programs tons of control over resources... which games kind of need to run decently. |
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:38 pm |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| Overall, it is not the OS that I have a problem with, but the access barriers to using the OS are so high that unless you're a programmer, I would still seriously not recommend using Xubuntu or Ubuntu... or any Linux distro really. |
I understand the front-end thing. However, what I don't understand is why you have to compile stuff. Don't they offer binaries? As for the rest, I guess there should be more documentation.
The access barriers are only high if you want to run games, I would argue. Puppy Linux is really nice. I ended up installing it to the hard drive on the Linux box instead of continuing to toy around with other distros.
After reading all this, I have to ask: exactly how is Linux there for games then?
| Hot Stott Bot wrote: |
| Then again, Vista is a lot closer to NT/2k/XP than 98 was... |
To what? Win98 FE was basically Win95 + IE4 + some bugfixes. Win98 SE got more work put into it, especially the Internet stuff, but it's still heavily based on Win9x.
| Quote: |
| Really, it just isn't designed for games. X11's architecture is not good at high throughput. Same thing for the way audio streams work. |
Window managers are optional, so I don't think that's the issue.
| Quote: |
| I mean, part of the reason Linux makes for good security is that everything is so compartmentalized, so it doesn't like to grant programs tons of control over resources... which games kind of need to run decently. |
I guess. The best OS for emulators is still DOS, as it lets programs do anything they want without an overhead. And hey, we have an open-source equivalent for that, called FreeDOS!
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Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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km
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Minor character in a frame story
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:40 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Really, it just isn't designed for games. X11's architecture is not good at high throughput. Same thing for the way audio streams work. |
Window managers are optional, so I don't think that's the issue. |
He's not talking about window managers, he's talking about the X windowing system itself.
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vi) RPGs (Role-Playing Games)
For adolescents; half-formed personalities roaming (in packs) in search of identity. |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:32 am |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Talbain wrote: |
| Overall, it is not the OS that I have a problem with, but the access barriers to using the OS are so high that unless you're a programmer, I would still seriously not recommend using Xubuntu or Ubuntu... or any Linux distro really. |
I understand the front-end thing. However, what I don't understand is why you have to compile stuff. Don't they offer binaries? As for the rest, I guess there should be more documentation.
The access barriers are only high if you want to run games, I would argue. Puppy Linux is really nice. I ended up installing it to the hard drive on the Linux box instead of continuing to toy around with other distros.
After reading all this, I have to ask: exactly how is Linux there for games then? |
They offer binaries; it's just that most of the time, said binaries are months, sometimes years, old.
As for where Linux is with games... nowhere near Windows.
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parkbench
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
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BenoitRen
I bought RAM
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:57 pm |
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| km wrote: |
| He's not talking about window managers, he's talking about the X windowing system itself. |
Sorry, I used the wrong term. That's what I meant. The X Windows System is optional.
| parkbench wrote: |
| couldn't all this windows vs. linux nonsense be solved by a dual-boot? |
Sort of. But then you'd still be paying the Microsoft tax, and dual-booting isn't exactly fun. :/
_________________
Get Xenoblade Chronicles!
| udoschuermann wrote: |
| Whenever I read things like "id like to by a new car," I cringe inside, imagine some grunting ape who happened across a keyboard, and move on without thinking about the attempted message. |
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ajutla
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: kansas city
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:55 pm |
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| benoitren do you regularly read slashdot |
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SplashBeats
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:30 am |
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| BenoitRen, Sonic dies. |
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