[B coma]

This week the forum gets confrontational when the focus shifts to fighting games. In this episode: revelations about Tekken 6, accessibility in fighting games, and an exclusive segment: THE ULTIMATE Q STRATEGY.
This episode features P1d40n3, Deets, negativedge, Jack Klugman, and Jaihson!
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Episode #2 Direct Link: Click Here

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Check out the libsyn blog at http://selectbutton.libsyn.com/

we'll be organizing the next episode in the main podcast thread, as usual, within the coming days. enjoy!
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[P1d40n3]

Holy shit! where did you find that cover? It's awesome!

T_T I love you man!
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[Deets]

Show Note:

The hilarious Street Fighter IV match replay videos I mentioned in the podcast can be found here on youtube and here on... some other crazy video site.

Be sure to also watch the Jackie Chan Fist of Fire 2 casuals. They are the Real Deal.

[P1d40n3]

lol at crappy zangief theater
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[Relevant]

Sf4 truly is a lye. Good episode

[Ben Reed]

Good podcast guys; sorry I didn't hear about it until today, or else I would have gladly thrown something in.

Good stuff all around, just a couple comments (writing as I listen):

I'm not gonna comment on Tekken because I'm working on a whole other Tekken post for the fighting games thread in another tab as I write this.

- I think the main problems with SF4 are twofold:
1. I agree with you guys that most of the shortcut mechanisms and the like (13-frame reversal window!) tend to confuse things/make the game more frustrating for beginner/intermediate players than they do to actually help them out. The reversal window/ridiculous auto-correction on reversal moves is particularly infuriating because it discourages players from sharpening their blockstring/footsie games because they know that they can't attempt anything with ANY kind of gap that can't be turned into a reversal uppercut trade/FADC -> Ultra just by having their opponent mash out a Shoryuken.

2. The main problem with the links and stuff in SF4's Trial Mode combos is that they don't do dick to explain or even demonstrate what's involved in many of these combos; if I hadn't watched videos of the NorCal kids dicking around in Trial Mode on a podcast months before, I would have no idea how to make certain of these links work, or even have known which points in these combos were links to begin with! Really, if they're going to add things like Ultras that can't be buffered off normal moves, in a game where many characters rarely get to store the meter for a full super, why not make certain of these moves just chain and be done with it? If not, be prepared to fully disclose how deep the rabbit hole goes a la VF4....
The links are generally a lot easier in CvS2, actually.

Still, I can't talk too much shit on 4 because I am so incredibly fucking grateful that it even exists. Hate it or love it, SF4 has just bought 2D fighting games at least another decade, and the fact that Capcom is so readily soliciting input about 4's development on this side of the Pacific gives me a lot of hope (compare that to the apathy of companies like Examu or Sega to their Western consumers).

Smash is a party game that was co-opted into competitive play, pure and simple. The main problem is not that kids take Smash seriously as PLAYERS as that Nintendo has absolutely no intention of making ANY kind of accomodation to Smash as a sober, balanced experience. The fact that they threw in something like tripping -- something designed ONLY to fuck up wavedashing, and therefore only to fuck up competitive players -- should say to Smash players that trying to turn this game into something serious is a waste of energy. Smash players are often morons (or at least they seem that way, because many of them are so young with the arrogance that accompanies youth), but nobody deserves such a ludicrous, disingenous stab in the back from the developers, such a crude and childish way to say "hey, fuck you, you're not playing our game the way we want you to play it". If you really have a problem with the way your game is being played by your consumers, at least have the balls to openly complain about it rather than resorting to this passive-aggressive bullshit!

KOF XII wasn't thrown out by the hardcore because it didn't have enough characters, it was thrown out because it was basically an all-around abortion. No viable online really hurts a game like KOF which subsists in America only in very small, isolated pockets, and a lot of the characters really feel stripped down to make the release date. It also really didn't help that at release the game had such inexplicable, inexcusable bugs (certain of them PATCHED IN with quick-fix patches!) as the Elizabeth vs. Raiden glitch -- by super-throwing Elizabeth, Raiden could put her in a Guile-style handcuff state for the rest of the round and literally render the match unplayable. Chin has an infinite? Ho hum, the game goes on. Raiden can't throw Elizabeth without disallowing her ability to fight back? An entire matchup is now rendered inexcusably stupid; what are we supposed to do? Ban Raiden from super-throwing Elizabeth? Ban Elizabeth vs. Raiden altogether? They've surely fixed that bug by now, but it's still painfully stupid that this bug was somehow INTRODUCED in the course of patching. This game feels really rushed, a test balloon for the new art assets and very little more. SNK really shot themselves in the foot with this one. Wake me for KOF XIII, assuming it doesn't suck.

I basically agree on BlazBlue, although it does have a lot of mechanical improvements over Guilty Gear that I do very much like. I stil lreally, really don't care for the game's aesthetic, though, it is ENTIRELY too (bad) anime for my liking. I pick characters like Bang and Tager because I find them inoffensive to me more than I actually find them COOL.

Battle Fantasia is the greatest fighting game that will NEVER get a sequel. The publishers were/are leery of it because "it's not Guilty Gear", many Japanese arcadegoers were/are leery of it because "it's not Guilty Gear", and yet its designers poured all kinds of love into its creation.

I like Marvel because it reminds me of my other favorite game propelled to greatness by insane glitches, Starsiege: Tribes. At the same time as it renders 90% of the cast useless (I would argue instead that it merely reveals their hidden worthlessness), it develops 10-20 characters to the kind of genius freeform bullshit that really makes you feel like a god. (Thanks for the namedrop, by the way!) And you guys are also right, the thing that makes Marvel hard is not nearly the fast-fingers aspect (although you do need to do some interesting finger acrobatics to do some of those Magneto tri-jumping combos) as it is the sheer VOLUME of CRAP happening onscreen in the space of a single second. Space control in Marvel means dealing with attacks from both dimensions at once at ALMOST all times, learning to exploit even the most minute of gaps with no advance warning to gain often nothing more than a dash length forward or a precious escape from blockstun or the corner (or usually both). The only versus game I can think of with any kind of space control like Marvel, where you can flood so much of the screen with so much crap, is Senkou no Ronde, which is of course a 1-on-1 bullet-hell shooter (and an interesting game in its own right!)

3S...it's certainly a good game, but I don't think it should be emulated to be quite the degree of "fireballs are useless, nothing happens beyond sweep range" that 3S managed. I don't think that's fair to character design, and I don't think it's fair to screen space; I think there needs to be something to be done (by one character or another) at any conceivable point on the screen that nets some kind of decent advantage. Personally, I'd like to see CvS2 emulated more often, a game unfairly stereotyped as uniformly slow. Poking wars between certain characters (often groove-dependent) can get long and protracted, certainly, but in CvS2 the close-range game is at least as viable as the zoning game. (Props also to CvS2 for the most interesting incarnation of Sagat, who finds ways to bullshit most of the cast WITHOUT the use of Tiger Shot!)

And yes, that was a good way to describe Q. I'd like to see Makoto come back for Super 4, but aside from the issue of whether or not Super 4 will suck, I also shudder to think of the kind of havoc she could wreak on already fragile characters like Vega (my boy!). Repeat of Makoto vs. Akuma (minus the ability to keep her the fuck away), anyone?

I was always a K-Groove guy, myself. I used to play K-Mai, but in recent years I've switched to K-Vega/Cammy/Sagat(2) so that I can run up and poke people to death. I just couldn't wrap my brain around Mai's anti-air (I always got close fierce when I wanted stand fierce) compared to Vega's. Good God, his jump is money.

I'd buy Hawk being top tier in the first public "loke test" (or whatever they can get for an equivalent if they don't decide to do an arcade release), probably with some kind of disproportionate command throw damage/range (S-Kill publicly complained about his excessive Storm Hammer range at the SF Club Super 4 event last month). Then they'll nerf him to hell and he'll be lower mid-tier. I doubt he'll make it all the way to the bottom unless they inexplicably give him Vega stamina or they give Dan FADC -> Tiger Destruction.

That was a very enjoyable cast, I'm sorry I missed the opportunity to RSVP. i'll definitely keep my ears to the ground for the next time you guys decide to talk about fighting games. (Ask me about Dissidia!)
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SelectButton.net -- Let the games begin.

[P1d40n3]

We will most likely revisit this in the future; spinach missed this episode as well, and Lord knows he wanted to talk about this stuff as well.

Battle Fantasia could still see something of a spiritual sequel!

Yeah, I don't want everything to be 3s, but I would like it if more stuff took that type of attitude to the genre (nothing is sacred, let's do something and coherent (compare to BB/GG new/interesting stuff with no coherency)).

I think Q would fit alot better in sf4 than Makoto; both could work no doubt, but Q would just gel with what they are trying to do in that game a lot better.
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[Ronk]

pretty good guys. i'm not too much of a "fighting games" guy, but you sort of got me interested in checking out sf4 (or rather the "super" version when that comes out)

that reminds me, there's an SF4 machine in the student center at my college. maybe i should check that out.


also, as a guy who played ENTIRELY too much smash bros melee for a long time, i thought that brawl was actually really comfortable when i first started playing it. though i still prefer melee and also i'm not one of the "no items" guys because i think that's kind of lame and goes against what the game is about.

but GOOD mention of AKI wrestlers. brought back fond memories of my friends and i spending too much time with wwf no mercy for the n64. might have to check out that def jam fighter too.
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[Schwere Viper]

Aside from not understanding a bit of the lingo, I did enjoy hearing you guys talking about these games. It gave me a little insight as to how focused one's mind can get on the mechanics of a game and take it to another level entirely.

A lot of games can be enhanced by a good competitive circle surrounding it. Smash Brothers isn't one.
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boost chains explode brains

[boojiboy7]

[Take It Sleazy]

Way over my head, but this is very encouraging to me about this show as a whole. I never hear this level of detail or in-depth talk in a gaming podcast and that this can be done simply by having people show up (with great editing of course) is really neat.

[P1d40n3]

[jack klugman]

this turned out to be a good listen, although i don't know if i was clear enough about what i was trying to say

here it is: fighting games are largely played by non-fighting game people, who are attracted to the elemental joy of one person punching another person in the face for minutes on end. games that fail to consider these people as their main audience are the reason that most fighting games are only enjoyed by the type of people who make wikis about the things that they like. i'm not arguing against depth in a fighting games, i'm just arguing that depth for the sake of depth is obtuse and meaningless.
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chaos wars blog

you meet the nicest people making videogames

[dementia]

hey I liked this

[spinach]

favorite part: appreciation of 3S menu sounds (especially "yeah, that makes sense.")

[ionustron]

[spinach]

thank you guys so much for talking about the contrivances of combo systems. i hadn't even thought about it that way before.
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http://thenicestpeople.tumblr.com

[Sonicrain]

yaaaaarrrrrrrr

wish i coulda participated in this one
Coulda explained a lot of the questions or comments

whatever :P

still glad you did it!

thx!

[Sketch]

This was amazing. I liked the technical side of things, quite a bit of which went over my head. So, like, Japan plays Marvel differently from the USA? Fascinating!


Also, NegativeEdge sounds pretty terrifying, like a more butch version of the original 1984 Kyle Reese.
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GAMES OF THE WORLD: everything from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe

[negativedge]

I blame my microphone, which is uncomfortably loud and good at picking up things it shouldn't

[robotdell]

I would be down for the next podcast. When does the actual recording take place?

[P1d40n3]

[G.]

Finally got around to listening to this:

First thoughts (I'll probably add more as I finish it off!):

- The Magic: The Gathering analogy is apt, with the colours basically being the characters and the moves the spells. But, I disagree that M:TG has a lower learning curve. Knowing the cards, the other colours' / your opponent's possibilties, "Last In, First Out", the card mechanics (Flanking, Double Strike, and more, aggrevated by the slowly fasing out of the explanation on the cards themselves), pre-floating your mana, all are factors that scare away the more casual player. The weird thing is that the fighter that most resembles this approach is actually... Dissidia (Grinding for abilities and setting them up, equipments).

- The whole irony is that the more celebrated games in this podcast are harder to explain and appeal to casual players than the more lambasted ones. Take for example Third Strike's Justin vs Daigo match (you know the one). If you have to explain the whole parry mechanic to someone, then that understanding is a threshold for appreciation. The whole zoning in Super Turbo or Championship edition is completely unappealing to a layman. He wants to see flashy moves, big damage and crazy moves.

[CubaLibre]

Finally listening to this. Glad I didn't participate, as I wouldn't have had much to say, but the mention of Bushido Blade got my motor running. One of my favorite games. It would have been great for you to spend more time contrasting it to regular fighting games.

It's interesting what neggy says about every fighting game living under the shadow of SF2. Videogame genres are almost always defined by specifications of wide swaths of general rules laid out by their forebears, unlike other media which are classified by thematic content (comedy, romance, horror). I wonder if it wouldn't be more accurate to call fighting games "sflikes" which would redefine Bushido Blade as something else entirely.
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[P1d40n3]

[Sketch]

Cuba reminded me of something...

The one (maybe) frustrating thing about this pdocast was, now that I think about it, that The Escapist about 2-3 months back came up with a theme of "I Know Kung Fu" and I pitched something. The pitch had nothing to do with what was discussed here (mainly because I'm no expert and the whole pitch revolved around that), but I also had wanted to say that most beat-em-ups follow SF2 (on a variety of levels). I don't want to be accused of taking your ideas, so I'll try to avoid that comment now, but if I get called up I'll certainly try to mention the podcast.

Pitches are still being accepted if anyone's curious.
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GAMES OF THE WORLD: everything from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe

[boojiboy7]

[spinach]

i played and enjoyed third strike for a year before i knew what parries were (friends who also played started when i did). high-level knowledge really isn't a requirement for these things (this thread is the first i've heard of zoning -- what is it?). there's really no reason for long combos, either, except to eat up the clock.
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http://thenicestpeople.tumblr.com

[G.]

[analogos]

Alright so I listened to this again while actually awake and I guess I just wanna throw one thing out there. I think freeman was explaining a bit but I'll just make it super simple. It's not always better to kara. The reason why a character like say Ken would want to have both a normal throw and a kara throw is because a kara throw trades the fact that it covers more distance for the fact that it comes out slightly slower. It's not just an arbitrary execution barrier, it's basically a different move to be used for a different reason, like the difference between when you'd use an MP shoryuken vs an HP shoryuken or whatever. (The explanation isn't really very complicated. When you cancel a normal move into a throw you're adding the frames of the normal move to the startup of the throw, making it easier to punish and occasionally harder to sync up with the opponent's throw for a tech attempt. This might not seem like a big deal except when you realize that most of the use of a throw lies in its ability to pressure the opponent. The idea is that you're always threatening to throw in the middle of any blockstring or whatever, and when you kara throw you make the window between your blockstring and your throw attempt that much less tight. So the benefit of the kara in this case is the element of surprise less than actual technical superiority. An opponent who knows what to expect can take advantage of this.)

Which isn't to say I disagree that maybe they should just be taken out. I haven't really made up my mind. Just explaining why, as long as they are there, they actually do have a place in the game's balance for those who know well enough to take advantage of it.

[P1d40n3]

True, there are certain situations where kara throwing is not ideal. But those situations are insanely rare (basically, the only time it matters is when you are at point-blank range).

I have no problem with the results of kara throws, ie, making throws better. I do have a problem with an incredibly vital technique that is hard as fucking hell to do.
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[analogos]

It's not really that rare at all, but I admit that the reasons why are more of a higher level problem. But at that point I'd argue that if you're not playing at mid-to-high level you sort of don't even need to know kara throws exist and you're setting yourself up for more frustration than is really necessary for success. That is to say, nah. They aren't "incredibly vital".

That's sort of the thing that bugs me about some of the complaints around here. They're unnecessarily self-defeating. No, you don't need to know 1 and 2 frame links to succeed with a character in Street Fighter 4. There's always an alternative with a lower input barrier that gives you like 35 points less damage (off of a 240 damage combo). The difference between an accessible combo and a less accessible but more damaging combo is the difference between a tournament victory or not, but not for fucking around with your friends.

[P1d40n3]

I don't understand why something as basic as the amount of damage you deal should be tiered for certain skill levels.
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[G.]

Ehm.

I'm afraid that's where the whole damage reduction in combos comes into play. Oh, that 15 hit combo might've required huge amounts of dexterity, but in the end, it won't be as effective as a basic 3 hit combo. Wishful thinking perhaps, but I think that measure was put in to level the playing field between players with that dexterity and players that have a firm grasp of the fundamentals and strategy, but maybe not the execution.

To go back to the Magic analogy (Hey, wasn't me who brought it up!): it's not if you can play that counterspell / 6/6 creature, but when. It's not about the means, but the insight to use it: you could play that spell, but your opponent could (literally) have an ace up his sleeve.

[analogos]

What should be tiered for certain skill levels? And since when has "how much damage you deal" ever been a particularly basic factor of a fighting game? I don't ask this in a "if it ain't broke" sort of sense. I ask because if there isn't an example of a fighting game where this is not the case then you'd have to come up with an idea where that would actually work and not be boring.

The thing is that any fighting game that has anything resembling a deep combat system is always going to allow for avenues of play, be they exploits or intentional, that only the best players are going to have access to because of their dedication. If it wasn't the links Capcom left in on purpose it'd be the links the community finds a year later regardless of Capcom's intentions. Eventually it becomes the game the community made more than the one Capcom made and whatever Capcom decides to do about that fact is going to inevitably alienate somebody.

[The New Ska]

[The New Ska]

fyi, i won't listen to a podcast here on this subject unless Ben Reed is in it.

[CubaLibre]

I tried to get him man. At least we got Jhaison.
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[P1d40n3]

[analogos]

Hate to do this sort of post but being ignored is sort of annoying!

[spinach]

analogos, that last paragraph of yours is lovely and i love it.
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http://thenicestpeople.tumblr.com