[haircute]

I like this game!

I play it during my breaks (twenty minutes) and my lunches (forty minutes) and am having a splendid time so far. I'm not very familiar with J-rogue-likes since I've only ever played Azure Dreams and five minutes of Chocobo's Dungeon whatever.

I have a thang for short pink hair, goggles, and sassy attitudes. It's rare to find them all in one place.

You can burn talismans on to your weapons but as of the fourth dungeon I haven't found anything that can use the really strong ones without breaking the weapons. Maybe the purifying flames have something to do with this? Like...use the talismans for a bit then burn them off? I don't know!

It's annoying how some of the townspeople run from you.
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Get Wild and Tough!

[tacotaskforce]

Claws have enough SP to burn powerful scrolls on.

Also this game is terrible. I said all I wanted to say about the game here.
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[les meat]

Is this out in America yet?
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[Talbain]

[Isfet]

i bought this game sort of on a whim today. two nights ago i finally tried out Dungeon Crawl (after dhex suggested it and Shaper mentioned it again in Apol's thread), and i finally saw what was addicting about this genre. so, when i remembered this came out, i figured i'd check it out.

i've beaten the first dungeon in the game, and so far i'm enjoying it pretty well. maybe the only reason i like it, though, is because i have nothing to really compare it to (unlike a decent number of people here). this game could be awful in comparison to other titles (like Shiren), but i wouldn't know.

it's the kind of game i need right now, in that it doesn't require lots of time and it can be played in short intervals.

[dessgeega]

[v84j3gs2uc7ns4]

[les meat]

This would be my dedicated venture into the roguelike (just can't seem to get into the text based ones, the interfaces are awkward) so I probably wont even know if its shit
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[Pijaibros]

A few reasons I may still probably get Izuna.

Shiren DS is completely unaccessible to me and it will probably never be released USA-side.

It's a portable roguelike. No needing to sit in front of an emulator here. Big plus!

I have a thang for short pink hair, goggles, and sassy attitudes.

There's a good chance I'll enjoy it more than Pokemon Dungeon. I played that for 30 hours just on the hope that "it would get better later".

Would it be cool with SB if I give the finger to Atlus by waiting for the game to be discounted before I buy it? I may get rid of Phoenix Wright: JFA for this one.
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[haircute]

[Elder Toups]

This game is less offensive than Pokemon Mystery Dungeon but is not nearly as well designed as Shiren.

Its hard but not in any kind of interesting way. There is a lot of fluff in this game which makes me think the people who designed it liked Shiren but didn't really have any idea what made it interesting.

Case in point: objects in Shiren interact with one another in interesting ways. This is most obvious in the fact that there are unidentified objects - there are a variety of ways for you to identify pots and Wands, but each costs something - frequently something dear.

We can, for example, put a useless item in an unidentified pot to try and see what sort of pot it is, but we risk ruining it if it is a Fusion Pot - so its better to save it for an identify scroll if you can find one.

One feels, when playing Shiren, that each move is important - saving a Crisis Scroll here might mean making two or three floors deeper further on. Better not use that blank scroll until its totally needed - unless you've just found a pot and your inventory is full. Maybe its a fusion pot?

Izuna has just the vaguest specter of these moments. I think the psychological weight of RPGs in the West (being games which you play passively in order to see a story progress) is too heavy for Shiren to ever really succeed here - but this sort of game is not the way to bring Shiren to our masses. It attempts to keep the player who expects an RPG happy by trimming difficulty - but without that tension, the mechanics of roguelikes become tedious. After all, randomly generate dungeons are boring - they were designed by a machine.

Which brings me to another point: Shiren had mad aesthetics. Although we spend time in dungeons in Shiren, they are punctuated by interesting, exotic locations. When we reach Mugen valley, where we fight creatures suspended on precarious wooden platforms attached to the cliff face, we really appreciate that we have made it somewhere. Shiren does an excellent job of simulating a journey. It has landmarks and your interactions with people are the interactions a traveler has, more or less.

Finally, the pseudo-random dungeons of Shiren beat the shit out of the sloppy ugly dungeons in Izuna. Still, Izuna is interesting enough for me to make it to the bonus dungeons, which might be interesting and/or challenging which is way more than I can say for Pokemon, which was so faulty that the game was pretty much meaningless.

[schild]

Hm. I play Izuna on the shitter. It's one of the best shitter games ever. I think game reviews of portable titles should take into account where a game should be played. As a shitter game, it's a 9/10, only beaten (soundily) by Lumines (Meteos requires too much concentration).

Would I play it outside in my lounge chair? No.

Couch? Nope, that's for REAL RPGs.

At my desk, waiting for something interesting to happen on the internet? No. That's platformer/action adventure time.

I've unraveled the secret. Rogue was invented to have something to play on the toilet.

[v84j3gs2uc7ns4]

[Toups]

[Elder Toups]

God who are you people that spend time on the shitter? I barely have time to get to a dungeon before I am done and ready to clean up and go.

[LordGek]

I like it so far.

Yeah, I don't think they (the makers) fully get how to make a classic like Torneko or Shiren the Wanderer, but its got some pretty inovative twists and witty dialog (I won't go so far as to say the story is anything original, though).

I also like the boss fights in this game as they seem much more tactical than in most of the Mysterious Dungeon games (espeically PMD) as you get pretty much a whole dungeon level to hunt the boss down in (or possibly run from them in) complete with a few random dungeon level regulars and items (so almost like any other level of said dungeon).

I think I'd go so far as to say that while I think this game has some pretty interesting an new creature abilities, the item system (with nothing unidentified) is a little bland.

I also miss the lack of scoreboards.

But I will hold off my final judgement until I get to that final bonus dungeon wherein the game finally becomes a TRUE Roguelike (nothing but your skivies to start with at first level and you'll need to claw your way out of a 100 level dungeon).

[Toups]

cross posting from TGQ:

I think the term "roguelight" is appropriate and it's exactly why I'm enjoying this game so much so far.

The game has nowhere near the depth of shiren, nor the difficulty, but it does have the basic elements which make a roguelike appealing. It's still difficult -- I've died many times -- and you still have to spend some time learning how all the talismans work, and because of the talismans and occasionally interesting enemy designs, there's a good deal of variety in how your adventures play out, forcing you to adopt different strategies depending on what sort of items you've found on that playthrough. It's still far more interesting than a traditional dungeon crawling RPG and I've found myself in several sticky situations so far. Though I doubt there will be any amazing "death stories", the game is still pretty compelling, especially thanks to the charming characters and the "uncurse the villagers" mechanic which actually does a decent job motivating you to move on. It's not the most original shtick in the world (it's been around as long as Soul Blazer and probably earlier) but it's particularly well-used here, I think.

For someone who cut their teeth on Shiren the Wanderer this game may not be too enjoyable, but for someone like me who found that game too intimidating and overwhelming, this game is a good way to get familiarized with the genre and still be exposed to all the basic elements of it. I figure after playing this game through I'll be ready for a more "serious" roguelike like shiren.

It's worth noting that leveling up only permanently increases your HP, so it basically just gives you some extra cushion time to formulate a strategy once you get stuck in a tight spot.
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[Pijaibros]

You guys are convincing me to go out and buy this game. That it is actually good fun on the go.

Is there any word of ShirenDS coming to the states? That will be the only thing that will stop me from plunking down the money for Izuna this weekend.
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[luvcraft]

I was wondering about this game this morning. this is the review that convinced me that I'd hate it.
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[Pijaibros]

Generally, these kinds of games are never reviewed favorably.

Especially when the people chosen to review these games have no experience in roguelikes. In fact, calling it a Dungeon Crawler is already a sign that the reviewer has no idea what he's talking about. At the very least he probably jumped in thinking it would play like Bladur's Gate: Dark Alliance or Children of Mana.

There is a certain niche that will like the game, problem is they don't usually review things. You'd need someone well versed in roguelikes to actually provide a good comparison (i.e. someone who has at least played Torneko). Especially since all the things the reviewers complain about are what make roguelikes what they are.
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[Toups]

[Toups]

[haircute]

Seconding (possibly fourthing?) the "shitter" game thing. I just can't play this game at home but when I'm on break at work, or lunch, or sitting in an auto repair shop for an hour it hits the spot.

If you need a game to play while on the go, FOLKS THIS IS IT!
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Get Wild and Tough!

[rabite gets whacked!]

It's currently my prefered way of passing time while sitting at my computer, waiting for CDs to rip or TGQ to refresh or just listening to music or what have you.

I say this with 50+ other DS games I could be playing sitting within arm's reach. It's just what I was looking for in this exact situation.

[Talbain]

Please note that I've not actually played this game, but it seems very much like WSC's Dicing Knight.
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[Kappuru]

I hate this game. I suppose it's not for people like me though. I don't get how the items given to me are random. I hate the combat. The story is nonexistent.

..
Why, then, do I find myself popping it in at the end of the night at work when i'm waiting to be tipped out?
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[Shapermc]

[Talbain]

[Shapermc]

[Toups]

I don't have as much experience with the genre, but I'm inclined to think that the biggest thing that sets a roguelike apart is that it's turn-based* and has random dungeons. Not just random layouts, but randomized items and enemy density/behavior. That and a fairly in-depth item usage system. Permadeath is becoming less central to genre from what I'm playing, but aside from that I'd argue that it's the difficulty that permadeath brings that's more essential than permadeath itself. a roguelike where enemies simply level up with you and you keep certain abilities (but as you keep those abilities, enemies gain stronger ones as well), for instance, could retain compelling difficulty without actually having permadeath.

Basically what I mean is that what makes a roguelike interesting is that the focus isn't on level grinding (even if there is an element of that) but rather on improvisation and making the best of what you get on each playthrough. It's about eking out every last bit of use from the items you find -- it's about squirming your way along and prolonging death using whatever ridiculous tactics you can think of. It really is unlike any current popular genre and I wish there was a game like Shiren for modern consoles that really did a good job showcasing what's awesome about the genre while streamling the things that make it awkward and frustrating.

Also, for my money izuna is still satisfyingly difficult despite retaining levels. The game certainly isn't a mindless dungeon hack and by the time you get to the third dungeon, even if you HAVE been level grinding, you will very often meet certain death. It's much less substantial than shiren but that makes it much easier to get into.

*meaning the specific turn-based rules of the genre -- freely wander around a map, enemies move at the same pace as you, etc.
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[Deets]

The two things that define a roguelike for me are random dungeons, permadeath and random, unidentified items. I think that's the key, more than anything. It's what makes Toe Jam and Earl feel more roguey than most of the Mysterious Dungeon Games.

[Toups]

[Deets]

I'm going to pretend that that was intentional, toups.

[Toups]

[Talbain]

So, where does the original Diablo fit in with all this?
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[luvcraft]

[Toups]

[luvcraft]

[extrabastardformula]

[jjsimpso]

With regard to permadeath, I don't mind it's absence from Izuna all that much. The pain of permadeath is mitigated somewhat by an abundance of available character builds. But there aren't any other builds with Izuna, so I don't think excluding permadeath is such a big deal. If you lost all your levels when you died, I think it would feel like too much of a grind to regain all of that lost progress.

Actually, to me, the 100 level bonus dungeon with permadeath in Izuna sounds kind of boring. Granted, this is mostly due to the game's limitations and is not intrinsic to the permadeath mechanic itself.

By the way, I just discovered the tiled version of Dungeon Crawl(from the thread on TGQ) and wholeheartedly concur with the recommendations it received earlier in the thread.

[Elder Toups]

I just really hate the idea that as I level up the game is becoming easier and easier. It makes me feel like I am wasting my time.

I admit, in Izuna it would make the game boring and/or ridiculous but thats because Izuna has shit for design. If the world was interesting, if the dungeons weren't boring, if the system was more carefully planned out, then we would find it acceptable to die permanently - but we don't. I just don't understand why people would really want to play this game except as a diversion.

Each time you gain a level, part of the game dies a little bit. That is the nice thing about Shiren - your level is always meaningful. You never find yourself overpowered because SHIT that is boring.