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Jam
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:22 pm |
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| oh my god immaculate wrote: |
there've been several threads where L4D's multiplayer has been explained in great detail (often in response to people that dismissed it without knowing what they were talking about)
but thanks for the dick post in a thread that you oh so dramatically vacated in order to avoid fights. |
I asked a question earlier that a couple of posters were nice enough to answer. I'm just thanking them for taking the time to do so, no slight intended.
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:20 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| DJ wrote: |
| L4D2 takes this one step further; while you can't turn off the game-like design of the levels, you CAN turn off pretty much all of the rest of it with Realism Mode. |
As soon as Valve has one of those awesome Steam sales on L4D2, you just made me buy it. Thanks. |
Dude L4D2 is the shit and you will probably seriously enjoy it, disliking HL2 aside. Valve has improved rather dramatically since the original HL2 design aesthetic. I gave it about 32 hours of time before retiring it for a bit and I'm re-installing it as I type this for the upcoming patch, which considering it's NOT a game I play obsessively by any means is a pretty solid run. It's a good game.
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:22 pm |
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| Oh, I am betting it is, just on what I liked in the first one. I just don't have much time to devote to it right now, so I might as well wait for a sale (something Steam is wonderful for). |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:17 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| oh my god immaculate wrote: |
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| oh my god immaculate wrote: |
| Do you approach every videogame like this? |
When I don't like something, and a lot of people do like said thing, yes, I do take the time to figure out why. Whoops. |
Except that pointing out that something in a videogame doesn't work exactly like it would in the real world (even though it was closer than you were) doesn't mean anything. |
Except that the driving feature of the game is theoretically physics that work like the real world.
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No it's not.
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:34 pm |
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| Oh, that is helpful, Toups. I would ask you to explain that, but clearly you don't feel like it. |
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Winona Ghost Ryder
lives in a monochromatic world
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm |
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Let it go, Booji. |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:45 pm |
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Why are people so interested in killing conversation? I genuinely want to know what Toups means. It would be greatly appreciated if people who were only going to post here to try to end the thread (immaculate and now CS), would kindly not bother.
Thanks. |
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amadeus3000
Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Location: on a high mountain
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:14 pm |
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Because if those driving physics were anything like the real world, your computer would do an instant crash. Real world driving physics have so many variables, that one needs dedicated simulations (and of course machines) for it. It's just something your computer can't pull off while he also handles graphics, AI and what not. Do you really believe
| Quote: |
| that the driving feature of the game is theoretically physics that work like the real world |
?
Last edited by amadeus3000 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr Mustache
Mean Mr. Mustache
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Bushwick
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:53 pm |
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haha
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:06 pm |
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The keyword is verisimilitude, not realism. HL2's physics are self-consistent. They resemble the real world's not out of an inherent desire for "realism" (contrast ArmA or Rainbow Six) but simply as a shortcut to help visually indicate how things interact. But those shortcuts are imperfect and eventually you must discover how objects interact in Half-Life World. The gravity gun is a great tool to help you explore this. The key is that this process of discovery should be immersive instead of distracting. I found it immersive.
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oh my god immaculate
banned
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:35 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
Why are people so interested in killing conversation? I genuinely want to know what Toups means. It would be greatly appreciated if people who were only going to post here to try to end the thread (immaculate and now CS), would kindly not bother.
Thanks. |
Booji, you ended the thread ages ago. You don't care what toups has to say, you don't care what anyone has to say. If you had solid reasons for hating HL2 they've been lost to the 60 threads that came before this one. All of this just feels like you scrambling to prove something that nobody gives a shit about but you.
Is there anything about HL2, besides the fact that you can't seem to stomach the idea that so many people enjoyed something that you didn't, that really justifies the amount of flack it's singled out for? Singling HL2 out over all the other shitty, patronizing, utterly insulting videogames out there smells like petty bullshit. |
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Jam
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:03 pm |
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We've been arguing in good faith autokrator. If anyone like Toups has a problem with the fact that we like to analyze a well regarded game, one of the most significant in the last decade, then they can always not talk to us.
And love it or hate it, we don't argue about it because of some kind of nerd rage. It really is an important work in the development of video games, and I find discussion about it invariably interesting. At least until it reaches that inevitable tipping point of internet snark.
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:41 am |
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guys stop complaining about half-life 2 you're disrespecting it
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sarsamis
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:27 am |
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(only read this page)
How many times have you played it?
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| Except that the driving feature of the game is theoretically physics that work like the real world. |
Has this really been your belief these past 6 years?
It seemed pretty obvious to me from the get-go that the physics were an extra. I thought the driving features of the Half-Life series were the real-time exposition and the sense of journey conveyed with contiguous set pieces.
Mandatory mention of Another World.
HL wasn't the first to do this, but it made it mainstream. HL2 does that again, but uses the source engine to try and enhance the experience with more attractive set pieces, physics, and convincing facial animations (which I think are still above average, even in the year 2010.)
Personally, I think the aforementioned driving points fall apart every time you're locked in a room while someone talks at you and you inevitably jump around while throwing things at them, but I'm not trying to make a point in regards to its quality. I just think you're misinterpreting its priorities. |
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bloody heartland
banned
Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:31 am |
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HL2 gets shit because it's a critical darling (for fatbeard critics)
Kinda wish I didn't have Booji in my corner for this one. Serious crybaby gripes about washing machines. Jesus. Booji, what you should be complaining about is more tangible shit, like how the first hour of episode 2 involves dealing with abhorrent characters before crawling around the same boring tunnel shooting the same boring antlion enemy for what feels like forever. But no. Washing machine physics. Christ. |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:59 am |
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Apologies in advance for the super long post with a lot of quotes.
| amadeus3000 wrote: |
| Because if those driving physics were anything like the real world, your computer would do an instant crash. Real world driving physics have so many variables, that one needs dedicated simulations (and of course machines) for it. It's just something your computer can't pull off while he also handles graphics, AI and what not. |
While this is true, it again falls into the "uncanny valley" problem. The more the physics in the game attempt versimilitude (thanks, Cuba, for that term. It's good to differentiate between "realism" and "versimilitude" in games, but I'll specifically address your post in a bit), the more closely they are compared to real physics, and the more little differences (which the washing machine was meant to be an example of) stick out. Again, by attempting to simulate versimilitudinous physics in a world that attempts to look/feel versimilitudinous, it can cause reactions such as my own.
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Do you really believe
| Quote: |
| that the driving feature of the game is theoretically physics that work like the real world |
? |
Given that the main new weapon in the game is devoted to playing with those physics, and that said weapon is the focal point of two entire large areas of the game, and that the game specifically reminds you of its physics on a regular basis (starting with the can-toss, but continuing on through box puzzles and near-forced gravity gun usage)? Yeah, I consider it a pretty important part of the game. Even Valve has said, in their book on the game, that the creation of the engine was the first/primary concern in making the game, and the physics are a large part of the engine.
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| The keyword is verisimilitude, not realism. HL2's physics are self-consistent. They resemble the real world's not out of an inherent desire for "realism" (contrast ArmA or Rainbow Six) but simply as a shortcut to help visually indicate how things interact. But those shortcuts are imperfect and eventually you must discover how objects interact in Half-Life World. The gravity gun is a great tool to help you explore this. The key is that this process of discovery should be immersive instead of distracting. I found it immersive. |
Again, thank you Cuba, for actually engaging in this conversation. You are right in that there is not necessarily and inherent desire for realism, in that the game is using real-world physics as a convenient referent more than as a desired goal (which is different from R6, or in a different genre altogether, Gran Turismo and its ilk). My issue with the physics then probably comes from how they don't match the referent in ways I would expect (again, the washing machine was meant as example). Unlike you, however, I found the figuring out how they work to be entirely distracting, as in my expectation of them being similar enough to real physics, I expected to be able to use them without specifically thinking about them. This meant that when they didn't, it felt like the game getting in my way.
That the game then creates puzzles around them, which specifically highlight the physics, and which highlight (for me) how they fail at their basic verisimilitude becomes a major problem.
| oh my god immaculate wrote: |
| Booji, you ended the thread ages ago. You don't care what toups has to say, you don't care what anyone has to say. |
No, I genuinely do. As hard as I know it is for you to believe, I have not posted in this thread in any disingenuous nature. I have been very interested in people's thoughts (see my responses to Cuba, DJ, some of Toups, and vision) and discussing them.
| Quote: |
| If you had solid reasons for hating HL2 they've been lost to the 60 threads that came before this one. All of this just feels like you scrambling to prove something that nobody gives a shit about but you. |
There have been (last i recall checking, which was last time you made this accusation) about 6 threads that I have actively talked about HL2 in. However, you've apparently decided I am not allowed to talk about it any more, but thankfully you are in no position to enforce such a decision, so I will continue to discuss it with people if they are willing to discuss it. I have nothing to prove, nor am I trying such, as much as I am attempting to discuss and figure out why I reacted to a game the way I did. Examining one's opinions is usually a good exercise, and pretty valid.
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| Is there anything about HL2, besides the fact that you can't seem to stomach the idea that so many people enjoyed something that you didn't, that really justifies the amount of flack it's singled out for? Singling HL2 out over all the other shitty, patronizing, utterly insulting videogames out there smells like petty bullshit. |
Even in this very thread, I praise a few of the things I fell the game does well, and acknowledge it is not the worst game ever or anything like that. There are plenty of other games out there far more worthy of bile and contempt. However, not many games of any quality are as discussed and thought about as HL2, and so I feel that in talking about it with other people, I can figure more out not about just my views on the game itself, but on my views of games as a whole.
In its own strange way, HL2 might be one of my most personally influential games, in that because of it, I have begun to examine games differently, and become more conscious of what influences my opinions on a game. You can call this "petty bullshit" if you want, but I prefer to call it and investigation of my own opinions.
| Jam wrote: |
| It really is an important work in the development of video games, and I find discussion about it invariably interesting. At least until it reaches that inevitable tipping point of internet snark. |
This exactly. HL2 is a huge and influential force in game development, and like anyone who loves a particular medium (or whatever you want to call games), I feel a good examination of it is important. A movie critic may dislike a specific important film, but should still examine what makes it up, and simultaneously examine why such elements don't always work for that critic.
| sarsamis wrote: |
(only read this page)
How many times have you played it? |
Quite a few, actually. I've probably (given far-too-numerous restarts to count) put in at least 25 or 30 hours on the game. I will admit to not having finished it yet, though I plan to at some point in the future. Even if I had only barely played it, this is not a valid defense of the game at all though, if you are intending it as such.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Except that the driving feature of the game is theoretically physics that work like the real world. |
Has this really been your belief these past 6 years? |
Given the aforementioned priority Valve placed on the engine, it's not exactly far fetched. However, I should probably revise the statement, however, and say that physics are a driving feature of the engine (along with facial expressions, which I definitely agree are still tot his day quite good), while the journey and real-time exposition are the driving forces of the single-player game design. I do have problems with how both of those are executed, but that was not the direction this thread was going in, so I didn't discuss them. The physics could be tied into problems of those though (like how the enemy stops chasing you so you can solve a box puzzle).
| bloody heartland wrote: |
HL2 gets shit because it's a critical darling (for fatbeard critics)
Kinda wish I didn't have Booji in my corner for this one. Serious crybaby gripes about washing machines. Jesus. Booji, what you should be complaining about is more tangible shit, like how the first hour of episode 2 involves dealing with abhorrent characters before crawling around the same boring tunnel shooting the same boring antlion enemy for what feels like forever. But no. Washing machine physics. Christ. |
Actually, James, the washing machine problem is the very definition of (in-game) tangible, being a very specific object with very specific problems. Moreover, though, it was meant as an example of the problems of the physics engine, which is why it was discussed as such. Given the prominent role physics play in the engine on the game itself, and in the "puzzles", a problem with them could eventually feel like a big problem with the game itself. Sorry if this seems intangible to you, but it seems pretty relevant to me.
Moving on though, I have not played episode 2, so I cannot comment on what you discuss there, but I definitely have had similar issues with the main game. Alyx's character, the boat level, and more could definitely be good things to discuss, if you feel that is an avenue worth going down. |
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Jam
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:24 pm |
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| bloody heartland wrote: |
| Kinda wish I didn't have Booji in my corner for this one. Serious crybaby gripes about washing machines. Jesus. Booji, what you should be complaining about is more tangible shit, like how the first hour of episode 2 involves dealing with abhorrent characters before crawling around the same boring tunnel shooting the same boring antlion enemy for what feels like forever. But no. Washing machine physics. Christ. |
For the record someone mentioned physics puzzles in HL2 and I thought that was an interesting little topic to chime in on. I just thought it would be rude, especially given how people hate talking about HL2, to bring up larger and more relevant complaints about the game.
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amadeus3000
Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Location: on a high mountain
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:32 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| Apologies in advance for the super long post with a lot of quotes. |
Never apologize for writing. Makes it look as if you're pretty unsure about what you're going to say.
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| While this is true, it again falls into the "uncanny valley" problem. The more the physics in the game attempt versimilitude (thanks, Cuba, for that term. It's good to differentiate between "realism" and "versimilitude" in games, but I'll specifically address your post in a bit), the more closely they are compared to real physics, and the more little differences (which the washing machine was meant to be an example of) stick out. Again, by attempting to simulate versimilitudinous physics in a world that attempts to look/feel versimilitudinous, it can cause reactions such as my own. |
Stop differentiating. There's the real world and there's the simulation of it in the game (may be good or bad, also a varieties of degrees of complexity – and no, no one needs names for all of those degrees). You're making it hard for yourself. All those differences, all those small degrees cloud your main problem – you didn't like certain aspects of the game's mechanic.
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| Given that the main new weapon in the game is devoted to playing with those physics, and that said weapon is the focal point of two entire large areas of the game, and that the game specifically reminds you of its physics on a regular basis (starting with the can-toss, but continuing on through box puzzles and near-forced gravity gun usage)? Yeah, I consider it a pretty important part of the game. Even Valve has said, in their book on the game, that the creation of the engine was the first/primary concern in making the game, and the physics are a large part of the engine. |
Now you're saying 'those' physics aka 'those' of the game. That's not what you said in the beginning. 'Even Valve has said...' – don't believe the hype.
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| This exactly. HL2 is a huge and influential force in game development, and like anyone who loves a particular medium (or whatever you want to call games), I feel a good examination of it is important. A movie critic may dislike a specific important film, but should still examine what makes it up, and simultaneously examine why such elements don't always work for that critic. |
You know that movie critics write books or longer articles about a whole film, and do not use the same length for one aspect of the movie? So far that wasn't a good examination. You are neither clear about your definitions, neither about your main problems. Compile them in an article, make it clear to yourself what your problem is and then post it. Don't start guessing around, associating or linking thoughts while posting. |
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:37 pm |
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So to derail this slightly, I'm sitting here staring at Steam waiting for it to cough up The Passing so I can get my L4D2 New Shit Hells Yeah on. Could someone at Valve maybe throw the switch already? It's already available on the 360 (albeit it costs monies (lol)).
Is anyone else doing this? We should all hop on when it finally gets released. LOOK ME UP ON STEAM (deusjester) OK.
Also, thanks, internets, for revealing which of the original cast dies in this one. I mean I probably could've guessed, he was really the only logical choice, but... :(
(And yes I said "he", no it isn't Zoe, of course they're not gonna kill the girl, sigh)
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HarveyQ
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Location: on a beach in a town where I am going to live
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:42 pm |
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| bloody heartland wrote: |
| HL2 gets shit because it's a critical darling (for fatbeard critics) |
watch the strawmen there, dogg.
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:44 pm |
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Yeah, a second ago I read it too. :(
I'm also waiting for the DLC to download, yet I won't be able to play it before 7pm ET. Sadface. |
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Jam
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:48 pm |
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Edit:
| DJ wrote: |
Also, thanks, internets, for revealing which of the original cast dies in this one. I mean I probably could've guessed, he was really the only logical choice, but... :(
(And yes I said "he", no it isn't Zoe, of course they're not gonna kill the girl, sigh) |
Is there definitively one dying then? Last I heard there was some poster shenanigans where there were four instances of the poster, each with a different person missing. And then some speculation that who dies is randomly decided each time you play.
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Last edited by Jam on Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:55 pm |
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| amadeus3000 wrote: |
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| Apologies in advance for the super long post with a lot of quotes. |
Never apologize for writing. Makes it look as if you're pretty unsure about what you're going to say. |
You are taking this far too seriously. I was just warning of a really long post man, damn.
| Quote: |
| Stop differentiating. There's the real world and there's the simulation of it in the game (may be good or bad, also a varieties of degrees of complexity – and no, no one needs names for all of those degrees). You're making it hard for yourself. All those differences, all those small degrees cloud your main problem – you didn't like certain aspects of the game's mechanic. |
The differentiation is ESSENTIAL, as the discussion in this thread shows. HL2 is a game that was built with a degree of verisimilitude inherent in the game, and appeals to that verisimilitude. To dismiss it entirely is to say that HL2 exists completely separate of any influence from reality, which is pointless.
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| Now you're saying 'those' physics aka 'those' of the game. That's not what you said in the beginning. 'Even Valve has said...' – don't believe the hype. |
What are you even trying to say here? Yes, the physics of HL2 are different from the physics of reality. Hence the need for differentiation. What hype are you talking about?
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| You know that movie critics write books or longer articles about a whole film, and do not use the same length for one aspect of the movie? So far that wasn't a good examination. You are neither clear about your definitions, neither about your main problems. Compile them in an article, make it clear to yourself what your problem is and then post it. Don't start guessing around, associating or linking thoughts while posting. |
You do know that many critics in any medium will discuss the work in question before writing down their definitive views on it, right? In fact, many critics (let's take Ebert and his "great movies") will alter, having written a review of the work initially, go back to write a later piece on it taking into account the discussion and influence of the work itself? Did it ever occur to you that someone might discuss things before writing an article, possibly on a discussion board? I feel no obligation to have come to a final opinion on anything before posting on a message board. Hell, if I had, there would be no point in trying to discuss it other than to yell my own opinion out loud. |
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:12 pm |
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| Jam wrote: |
Edit:
| DJ wrote: |
Also, thanks, internets, for revealing which of the original cast dies in this one. I mean I probably could've guessed, he was really the only logical choice, but... :(
(And yes I said "he", no it isn't Zoe, of course they're not gonna kill the girl, sigh) |
Is there definitively one dying then? Last I heard there was some poster shenanigans where there were four instances of the poster, each with a different person missing. And then some speculation that who dies is randomly decided each time you play. |
Yeah, one of them definitely dies. You can YouTube it currently if you don't want to wait/don't have L4D2.
I did some digging and apparently the "real" reason behind this was that this character's voice actor and Valve have had some friction over...Something, I'm not sure what. But this character also had no lines in the previous L4D DLC for this reason, and this time around they just decided to kill him off.
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:16 pm |
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I thought that you can decide in the L4D1 DLC which takes part during the events right before the LFD2 DLC who survives and who get killed off?
Yet in the LFD2 DLC Vale decides for you who gets killed off.
Or did I misunderstood something? |
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:46 pm |
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As far as I'm aware it's always the same one.
I guess we'll see soon(?) though!
VALVE THROW THE SWITCH ALREADY, CHRIST.
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amadeus3000
Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Location: on a high mountain
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:59 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| You are taking this far too seriously. I was just warning of a really long post man, damn. |
My apologies if I came off as an asshole or professor. I just wanted to get some clarity.
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| The differentiation is ESSENTIAL, as the discussion in this thread shows. HL2 is a game that was built with a degree of verisimilitude inherent in the game, and appeals to that verisimilitude. To dismiss it entirely is to say that HL2 exists completely separate of any influence from reality, which is pointless. |
The difference is being made. But this 'Again, by attempting to simulate versimilitudinous physics in a world that attempts to look/feel versimilitudinous, it can cause reactions such as my own' is what I'm talking about. First off, it is verIsimilitudinous. Then, what does verisimilitudinous mean? It is the appearance of being true or real. So you're saying that 'Again by attempting to simulate physics, which appear to be true, in a world that attempts to look/feel 'appears to be true', it can cause reactions such as my own'??
I might be wrong here, but to me that doesn't make sense. So. Making these elaborate differences has led to more confusion. If we would stick to reality and the simulation of it we wouldn't have gotten there in the first place.
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| What are you even trying to say here? Yes, the physics of HL2 are different from the physics of reality. Hence the need for differentiation. What hype are you talking about? |
You didn't make that difference in the first place. That was my problem. As for the 'hype' I was referring to the sentence 'Even Valve has said, in their book on the game, that the creation of the engine was the first/primary concern in making the game, and the physics are a large part of the engine.' It was my understanding that you concluded from it, that physics in HL2 were as in the real world. Hence your problem with 'the driving feature of the game is theoretically physics that work like the real world'
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| You do know that many critics in any medium will discuss the work in question before writing down their definitive views on it, right? In fact, many critics (let's take Ebert and his "great movies") will alter, having written a review of the work initially, go back to write a later piece on it taking into account the discussion and influence of the work itself? Did it ever occur to you that someone might discuss things before writing an article, possibly on a discussion board? I feel no obligation to have come to a final opinion on anything before posting on a message board. Hell, if I had, there would be no point in trying to discuss it other than to yell my own opinion out loud. |
I know. But they have a complete version before they start discussing. Didn't seem to be the case here. Sorry, if I misinterpreted. |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:13 pm |
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They start discussing with someone before writing the article long before they have a complete opinion on the entire thing. They may have a "yeah, that movie isn't very good, and here are a few quick reason why" opinion, but not one that takes into accounts the full depths of issues with the movie, as those tend to be explored in conversation, which is what I am trying to do here. Anyhow, moving on.
| amadeus3000 wrote: |
The difference is being made. But this 'Again, by attempting to simulate versimilitudinous physics in a world that attempts to look/feel versimilitudinous, it can cause reactions such as my own' is what I'm talking about. First off, it is verIsimilitudinous. Then, what does verisimilitudinous means? It is the appearance of being true or real. So you're saying that 'Again by attempting to simulate physics, which appear to be true, in a world that attempts to look/feel 'appears to be true', it can cause reactions such as my own'??
I might be wrong here, but to me that doesn't make sense. So. Making these elaborate differences has led to more confusion. If we would stick to reality and the simulation of it in the game we wouldn't have gotten there in the first place. |
Maybe my wording was a bit off, so let me try it a different way. The physics of HL2 attempt to simulate (and admittedly, by necessity, simply) real-world physics to some degree. The areas in which they don't match up with real-world physics causes a level of cognitive dissonance for me, in that I expect them to act one way (due to the knowledge that they should simulate physics) and they act in a different way. What I was trying to say in the bit you quoted was that this dissonance is heightened by the game also attempting to look "real" as well (as "real" as the setting and the stylistic choices of the game will allow, in that there is no City 17 and that the games graphics can attempt "realism" but will never be able to match reality itself). This was really a summary of the similar thought expressed by DJ in his post on TF2.
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| You didn't make that difference in the first place. That was my problem. |
I'm sorry, I guess I again wasn't clear. I thought the separation of the two sets of physics was implicit in the whole thing. The problem for me (with the physics, as again, there are a lot of other potential issues of the game to discuss) comes in how separate they are, really.
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| As for the 'hype' I was referring to the sentence 'Even Valve has said, in their book on the game, that the creation of the engine was the first/primary concern in making the game, and the physics are a large part of the engine.' It was my understanding that you concluded from it, that physics in HL2 were as in the real world. Hence your problem with 'the driving feature of the game is theoretically physics that work like the real world' |
Actually, I read Valve's thing about the engine well after playing the game. My conclusions as to the intent of the physics was mostly just based on my experience with the game prior to that. |
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amadeus3000
Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Location: on a high mountain
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:33 pm |
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Good. Now I understand you. Now you are being clear.
But in the end:
You had high expectations for the physics in HL2, they didn't meet them and now you're disappointed. (but you did not expect real physics as one might have thought in the beginning of your posts)
Am I right with that? |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:40 pm |
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| Not necessarily. I mean, you are right in that it is disappointing, but that's not what I was trying to get at, really. The game itself encourages such disappointment in how it presents the physics and the world they are used in. Additionally, the physics are part of what makes the whole game feel 'off' to me (off being a generic term here, that I am attempting to define through conversation and such). What's strange to be about this 'off'-ness is that so few other people experience it at all. |
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:22 pm |
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In 2004, impressive as I thought the Havok implementation was, no way in hell did I really expect the game physics to match up to reality. Whether or not the game "encouraged" it, I knew better than to expect it.
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:06 pm |
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| Yeah, I understand that. That's part of its nature as a simulation, it's an illusion. I just found the ways it didn't match up very jarring in a way that broke the illusion. |
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:12 pm |
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This thread makes me want to replay this game. Again.
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Let's Play, starring me. |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:35 pm |
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| Go for it. If it helps continue the conversation, that's pretty awesome. It might make me even finish the actual game (maybe). |
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Deadcat
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:22 pm |
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Regarding the physics, the only puzzle that really took me out of the game was the water barrels for ramp support. Since the barrels are supposed to be full of oxygen, how is it even plausible that Gordon is able to take them underwater? The oxygen filling the container would require an enormous amount of force just to be pushed a foot underwater, yet if the object is light enough to be pushed underwater, it's impossible to support a ramp weighing several hundred pounds using that. I could go with the washing machine and the lift, but if you've ever tried to completely submerge a relatively small plastic paint bucket filled with oxygen underwater, you'll understand how impossible that barrel puzzle is.
And yeah, not being able to orient the way things are facing was a big pain. It didn't really matter in most cases since crates are practically part of the economy, but getting a barrel to stand straight up required pushing it in the corner until it did what you wanted it to do. I'm surprised there wasn't a button to upright/rotate 90 degrees whatever you were holding, especially since there are two buttons for crouch and a button solely for switching to the gravity gun and back.
Booji, how far have you made it through the game? If it's just the physics that you dislike and not the gravity gun, I don't remember the game throwing out many more actual "puzzles" once you've actually got the GG itself, it's moreso picking things up and moving/zapping them out of your way. That said, the game really does start relying more heavily on the GG towards the end. I'm not sure how much spoilers matter, but near the end of the game, your gravity gun is altered in a way that allows it to pick up organic matter as well as larger objects and energy spheres (the alternate fire of the Combine rifle). At this point, you need to use the GG in order to solve some puzzles and it's up to you whether you want to use it to kill enemies or to stick with conventional weapons. I enjoyed the second half of the game more than the first, partially due to it shying away from the ambient feel the first half tried so hard to do. |
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Broco
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:41 pm |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| This thread makes me want to replay this game. Again. |
Yeah if you have time, it would be great to have a thread like Apol's nethack thread for Half-Life 2. Where you're at in the game, what you're thinking in the light of all the discussion about Valve, what's irritating or impressive -- and screenshots. |
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shrugtheironteacup
man of tomorrow
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: a meat
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:22 pm |
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| Deadcat wrote: |
| near the end of the game, your gravity gun is altered in a way that allows it to pick up organic matter as well as larger objects and energy spheres (the alternate fire of the Combine rifle). At this point, you need to use the GG in order to solve some puzzles and it's up to you whether you want to use it to kill enemies or to stick with conventional weapons. I enjoyed the second half of the game more than the first, partially due to it shying away from the ambient feel the first half tried so hard to do. |
When do conventional weapons crop up again?
Your gravity gun is enhanced by the room that vaporizes the rest of your weapons.
I don't recall guns proper coming back, since uses the Super Gravisoaker zaps the weapons of your hapless foes.
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Deadcat
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:21 pm |
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| shrugtheironteacup wrote: |
When do conventional weapons crop up again?
Your gravity gun is enhanced by the room that vaporizes the rest of your weapons.
I don't recall guns proper coming back, since uses the Super Gravisoaker zaps the weapons of your hapless foes. |
I might be confusing it with Episode 1 which has the same event happen at the beginning. I played them all back to back so I might be confusing HL2 with Episode 1.
Yeah I just looked at a video, it's Gravity Gun from there on until the end. |
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:11 pm |
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| Broco wrote: |
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| This thread makes me want to replay this game. Again. |
Yeah if you have time, it would be great to have a thread like Apol's nethack thread for Half-Life 2. Where you're at in the game, what you're thinking in the light of all the discussion about Valve, what's irritating or impressive -- and screenshots. |
I would be down for this.
I just replayed HL2 and both episodes not two months ago, but I'd do it again.
Also, it's been posted elsewhere, but nice to see Valve making a nod to Capcom:
Remember when game companies basically pretended that nobody besides themselves existed? I'm kind of glad that's gone away.
Also, I almost hate to admit, but at least a couple of times the bathroom graffiti in The Passing made me laugh out loud.
I didn't screenshot it but there's also one that says "REPENT FOR THE END IS VERY FUCKING NIGH" (which is a 28 Days Later reference) and there's assorted scribbles around it yelling at the author for using foul language. "This may be the zombie apocalypse but we still have standards!"
S'kinda weird. Half-Life 2 didn't really have much of a sense of humor insofar as the humor that was there was usually Alyx cracking stale jokes or stuff like Barney's reaction to Llamar. Now ever their "serious" games tend to be a lot more humorous. Presumably because they went out and hired an actual comedy writer or two, but whatever, it's working.
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:31 pm |
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| Going to play it now. With the AI. Sadface. |
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Broco
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:39 pm |
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| DJ wrote: |
| Also, it's been posted elsewhere, but nice to see Valve making a nod to Capcom: |
They also playfully one-upped Capcom with the "Zombie Genocidest" achievement, which required exactly one more zombie kill than Dead Rising (53595). |
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