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Valve something something

 
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Broco



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:35 am        Reply with quote

Mr. Toups wrote:
I'm hoping they don't bring back the companion cube


They're clearly not as enamored with it as the fanbase, so I think your wish is pretty likely. In the commentary, they talk about it as mainly as a technical solution to convince the player to carry a block around in a stage and teach the mechanic used to fight the boss.
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Broco



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:29 pm        Reply with quote

Interstellar Dinghy wrote:
half life and half life 2 play pretty much exactly the same, except the latter is less interesting with the level design


breathtaking missing the point

Gamasutra had a pretty good thread on HL2 earlier this year, better than the discussions we're had around here lately: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27702/Analysis_On_HalfLife_2__Build_It_And_They_Will_Come.php

I especially like this guy's comment:

Bart Stewart wrote:
What I've found most striking about the writing about Valve's single-player games is that, other than passing mentions of the gravity gun or Portal's "portal gun," remarkably little attention is given to gameplay mechanics.

Instead, we rave about the worlds brought to life in Valve games -- the environment, the characters, the story. How many comment threads in how many discussion forums all over the world continue to focus on just the enigma of the G-man? Can you count the number of times you've read or heard someone say "the cake is a lie?"

It's fascinating to see the developers of virtually all other games focus obsessively on refining and honing and polishing mechanical gameplay elements: how fast should bullets fly? do we need to let the character kick or curb-stomp enemies? have you tweaked the spreadsheet that stores the DPS numbers? aggro range? snares? buffs?

And then there's Valve. While there obviously must be some gameplay mechanics, in Valve games they are not loudmouthed superstars -- they are members of the chorus. Valve games, almost uniquely, are not just refined at the low level of mechanics; they are refined at the high level of vision where coherence is king. Someone clearly is exercising editorial power to insure that every piece of a Valve game serves the vision of that game. Every feature contributes, or it's out.

After the great leap in character-based storytelling in HL2 Episode 2, and with the likely inclusion of a version of Left 4 Dead's AI Director, it's almost terrifying to imagine how good HL2 Episode 3 may be.

And not primarily because of gameplay mechanics, but because the worldy features of environment and characters and story have been turned up to 11.

I wonder what, if anything, other game developers will make of that?
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Broco



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:05 pm        Reply with quote

Interstellar Dinghy wrote:
Quote:
breathtaking missing the point


Is the point the "character driven story"? By design, the main character has literally no character, and most of the other characters are just nameless NPCs that you could just kill in the first one, NOW WITH NAMES, that are just in the game to build things for you to get through the game.

Half-Life 2 doesn't have a single interesting character in it, so I don't get how the point could be its "character driven story".

I feel like I'm not even playing the same game as y'all. Someone please explain this to me.


No, I actually completely disagree with him that HL2 is any good at a "character-driven story" (and was going to edit my post to note that), that whole side of it is just cheap melodrama.

It's about the organic illusion of a world. The core of it is the fantastic art and sound direction, but every element of gameplay, level design and plot is also carefully controlled to cohere into a seamless whole. HL2 may not be that great at many things (including the mechanics you're myopically focusing on), but in terms of transporting you into an alien, dangerous yet paradoxically familiar and believable space, Valve is in a different league from everyone else -- the only comparable game is Eric Chahi's Another World.
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Broco



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:45 pm        Reply with quote

I'd say Another World is more soundly designed in that it naturally keeps you tightly on the rails and there's no expectation of freedom, whereas HL2's great weakness is that the organic feel of the world is constantly threatened by a player trying to go off the beaten path and failing, or staying in place and noticing that the sense of danger disappears completely.
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Broco



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:38 pm        Reply with quote

Interstellar Dinghy wrote:
Broco wrote:
in terms of transporting you into . . .believable space, Valve is in a different league from everyone else


Broco wrote:
the organic feel of the world is constantly threatened by a player trying to go off the beaten path and failing, or staying in place and noticing that the sense of danger disappears completely.


See this seems contradictory to me


Yeah it is, it's a tension in the game. Valve does recognize the problem and they go to great lengths to mitigate the problem via psychological trickery (though this can itself backfire by feeling manipulative) and making it an element of the plot (train tracks, the G-man).

The problem really exists in lots of games, but the common solution is just present it as blatant "gameyness" -- i.e. not even trying to create a cohesive world, so that arbitrary elements don't really come across as a flaw. (Incidentally, Valve's own Left 4 Dead takes this route with its prominent HUD and magically resurrecting closets.) Half-Life 2's whole point in life is to integrate everything into a seamless game-world context, so that's why there's a much stronger tendency to get annoyed when it fails to do so.

Interstellar Dinghy wrote:
I guess this might just be a matter of taste then, really. Mostly I never felt like I was in a world because of how inhuman everything about the people in it seemed to be, but really a whole lot of it I think is just due to how much I dislike the aesthetic of both Half-Life 2 and the original.


I could understand that, I'm in basically the same position w.r.t. Earthbound. Could you elaborate on what you dislike about the aesthetic though?


Last edited by Broco on Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Broco



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:03 pm        Reply with quote

I played a ton of co-op on the original Left 4 Dead (but I'm not a fan of the versus mode), mostly with random players on public servers. It's the first multiplayer FPS I've spent significant time on since Quake 3, since it feels so fresh and really I had been craving a great co-op FPS all along (I wrote an article for PlanetQuake expressing excitement for possible future co-op FPSes back in ~1998. It seems to have fallen off the net though.)

The greatest thing about L4D co-op is that just by virtue of the game's context, reward system, and other design details like the HUD, it turns what was considered a law of the internet on its head and makes all kinds of Internet assholes automatically friendly and cooperative. I have met very few griefers, maybe a dozen in total in hundreds of other players. It's a fucking zombie apocalypse, you're feeling assailed from all sides so the last instinct anyone has is to turn on their only natural allies. If you try to go it alone, the game will immediately smack you down -- special zombies have the ability to paralyze individual players, and even regular ones make you slow like molasses when they hit you so it's very difficult to move quickly unless you have multiple players covering all angles. There are all kinds of tooltips the game throws at you, reminding you that a player needs to be rescued or is low on health and could use your medpack. And the very existence of versus mode makes assholes gravitate to it instead of co-op (you can see in people's names! Names like DieFags, BlackDeath8583 are typical versus players, neutral names like mine are co-op players).

L4D's other great innovation is the procedurally generated enemy positioning, which gives the game some of the good qualities of a roguelike -- constantly needing to improvise in new situations and manage a different set of resources at each playthrough. But players need to do this as a team -- perhaps there are two good, but mutually exclusive solutions to a situation (throw a molotov and crouch in that corner until the horde is all dead, or sprint through the open area that the molotov would cover and try a hail mary to the safe room), and if players can't agree, then they're screwed. The best teams I've been in have this organic, instantaneous agreement where everyone sticks close and move decisively as a group in the same direction, like a flock of birds. The bad teams often have competent individual shooting skills, but constant disagreement and splitting up or moving too slowly because a player or two sticks behind.
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Broco



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Headquarters

PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:52 am        Reply with quote

One of the biggest problems with Versus is that the capabilities of the special infected were clearly designed with them in mind as AI-controlled enemies. Shoehorned into a player-controlled UI, they're very awkward. It's hard to accurately pounce with the Hunter when the distance is determined by "charging" time, to lurk out of sight as a Smoker when the first-person perspective doesn't really give you insight on what your enemy can see of you, to vomit properly with the boomer when a single accidental touch blows your load for a very long time and it's not clear how long your vomit stream will last. And the HUD crosses the line into overly complicated, with the "climb points", four different thru-wall highlight colors and those little circular charge bars. It's a mess.

The second thing I don't like about Versus is that it's hard enough to find four good players in co-op, at 8 players it becomes very rare to have balanced skill levels on both sides. I don't enjoy being on either a crushingly winning or crushingly losing team, and that's been most of my experiences so far (including one that Cuba probably remembers where I ragequit when I ended up teamed with publics against his militarily disciplined group).
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Broco



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:26 pm        Reply with quote

I think it means that he's blaming the fact that fans liked to overrepeat the game's funniest lines on the game itself. Chauncey, you must really hate things like The Simpsons and Monty Python, then.

And that makes another person saying Valve's art direction is boring. I'd rather say that the art in Portal and HL2 is nuanced, tasteful, and quietly beautiful.
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Broco



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:41 pm        Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
This thread makes me want to replay this game. Again.


Yeah if you have time, it would be great to have a thread like Apol's nethack thread for Half-Life 2. Where you're at in the game, what you're thinking in the light of all the discussion about Valve, what's irritating or impressive -- and screenshots.
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Broco



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:39 pm        Reply with quote

DJ wrote:
Also, it's been posted elsewhere, but nice to see Valve making a nod to Capcom:


They also playfully one-upped Capcom with the "Zombie Genocidest" achievement, which required exactly one more zombie kill than Dead Rising (53595).
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