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Valve something something

 
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:29 am        Reply with quote

I'm hoping they don't bring back the companion cube
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:49 pm        Reply with quote

What I mostly admire about Half Life is the way the mechanics fade into the background. The appeal of the game is that it's convincing escapist fantasy -- it's designed to let me forget that I'm playing a videogame. Of course, if you're willing to go out of your way, it's still easy to run into things that take you out of the experience... But if you're willing to play along with the game's unobtrusive requirements for immersion, it's awesome.

So I might play God Hand and try and tear apart the game's finely tuned rules, because that's what they're there for.

To draw a loose analogy, people like listening to a variety of different types of music. One song might consist of a series of intricate and difficult to perform parts which create a spectacle when played proficiently; so you might enjoy hearing the technical ability of the performers. Another song might be based on simple patterns and parts that do not do much on their own, but when arranged correctly produce a certain pleasurable mood or emotion; so you might just enjoy that song because of how it moves you internally.

When it comes to the "legitimacy" of videogames, there is a tendency to only value the former approach... Games which use the latter idea are often rightly considered to be shallow and designed for disposable, mainstream consumption. But Valve's games exhibit unusual talent in arranging basic elements to create a larger feeling, and I think they achieve something special compared to say, your average God of War or Tomb Raider. It's for this reason that I'd broadly classify Half Life 2 with survival horror games like Silent Hill or even Resident Evil instead of other action-oriented first person shooters like Quake or Halo... These are games in which the mechanics are hardly the point and only exist to contribute to mood. The problem with Half Life 2 is it uses a format that is associated with a highly specific genre... First person shooters are almost universally in the "technical" camp, even including things like Deus Ex or System Shock. And yet it embraces aspects of that format that are largely ignored by most first person games.

Of course there are games like Bioshock or Resident Evil 5 that try to both without really knowing how to do either.

I guess I'm kind of just collapsing"pongism" onto a simple spectrum.
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Last edited by Toups on Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:06 pm        Reply with quote

Those are all genre conventions for a reason. And in Half Life 2's case, allowing more interactivity with the environment or NPC's would inevitably introduce design problems that would hamper the sensation they're going for...

All games involve playing roles. The difference is that in Half Life, your role is more defined.

I'd say Gordon Freeman is more of a Mario than a JC Denton.
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:08 pm        Reply with quote

The point about Half Life 2 is that it creates an appealing and effective illusion. I feel like most criticisms of the game boil down to pointing out the many (often obvious) ways in which it's an illusion. You go into the experience knowing it's an illusion. That's what's fun about it.
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:10 pm        Reply with quote

About him not talking... what would he say, really? Is there any point in the game where he'd actually have any meaningful input? The only thing I'd imagine him saying is "hell no, I'm not doing this anymore". But if he ever really had cause to say that, there'd be no point in playing. So of course -- it's assumed that he's earnestly trying to help these people out. His motivations don't matter... That's why people are always talking about what an infamous hero he is... to set up the fact This Is Just What He Does. For the kind of story that Half Life 2 is, the protagonist is almost irrelevant.
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:31 am        Reply with quote

Dracko wrote:
That's a pretty poor reason for critical claim and esteem.


To the contrary... If, as you insist, all entertainment is about creating illusions, ALL games should, a priori, be designed from the ground up so that all the pieces seem to fit together. And yet... most of them aren't. And Half Life 2, for however much better it could be, still does it better than most of them that try. To my mind, that's the definition of something that's worth critical praise and esteem because it's pioneering in the right direction while everyone else just kind of does their own shitty copy of whatever's selling.

The only game that I think does that kind of thing better (in its own way) is Call of Duty 4. Which has its own share of similar narrative problems and no shortage of critical praise and esteem.
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:52 pm        Reply with quote

I don't like music that's all like "HEY CHECK THIS GUITAR SOLO OUT DUDE"
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:33 pm        Reply with quote

the game basically screaming at you would entail, I don't know, alyx communicating to (constantly) via a radio in your suit saying "WELL, LOOKS LIKE THAT PHD IN PHYSICS MIGHT GET YOU OUT OF THIS ONE GORDON" every time you came across one, which is how most videogames would've handled it... can we at least give valve credit for not being obsequiously patronizing?

they were a little garish but they were mostly grounded in the story of the game (ie, they seem to be intentionally designed checkpoints in a shackled-together underground railroad that could quickly be broken down at notice)...
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:28 pm        Reply with quote

the ramp raises up... it's already at its lowest point when you get there, hence no budging from additional weight on top.

and putting debris in the elevator will make it dip, just not enough to raise the second ramp... you're supposed to see a bunch of items that you can try throwing in there, realize that it's not enough weight, and then, after poking around, realize there's a washing machine (which was left there on scaffolding built by rebels as part of the railroad) which is more than heavy enough to make it work...

if you're willing to pay enough attention, the physics puzzles are in fact well integrated into the gameworld... I agree that the modes of interaction are clumsy, but given where game development was in 2004 when this game came out, any more sophisticated solution they could have tried probably would have backfired and been even more counterimmersive... I haven't really seen game design come up with an elegant solution to that problem since, to be honest.
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:32 pm        Reply with quote

because half life 2 isn't a puzzle game... the puzzles are just there to pace things and build the game world. they're obstacles hastily assembled from garbage and junk by a resourceful group of resistance fighters... so it makes sense that they'd just have one solution, since they're designed to let people who know that solution pass.
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:48 pm        Reply with quote

Jam wrote:
The ramp pivots Toups :( Just think about it from a different angle.

From the washing machine example as I recall the elevator reaches a point where putting more items on it does nothing. Like it reaches some kind of preset and just wiggles there no matter what you find to put on it. And the most frustrating part is that gordon is still non-corporeal, so his weight does next to nothing as well.

Let's assume that you're right though, and that the physics are implemented very well. That still leaves only one solution to each puzzle, which brings it back to the same lock and key design. You're not encouraged to think about physics, but to look at whatever brightly colored objects can be found near the obstacle. In many cases even thinking about physics is counter-productive.

I never thought of it before, but why is there a ramp with a cage and air barrels floating around? Even presuming this is a common resistance route you'd think they'd just make a ramp that connects the top and bottom.

We just look at things differently I guess. I found the inability to find another solution and not being able to budge the ramp by jumping all over it to be extremely counterimmersive. Much more so that someone just telling me to put the barrels under the ramp and move on. Sure, the latter is bad design, but it makes the bad design more forgettable. The former is a betrayal of an much lauded expectation - that is that physics should work properly - and so sticks in my craw well past the moment of frustration.


If this were the case, it would only make the puzzles more contrived... and confusing.

boojiboy7 wrote:
Mr. Toups wrote:
they were a little garish but they were mostly grounded in the story of the game (ie, they seem to be intentionally designed checkpoints in a shackled-together underground railroad that could quickly be broken down at notice)...


How is that ramp effective as a checkpoint? Would the Combine just not be able to figure out how to do it? Or would they just, you know, get in their helicopter and fly past it? The puzzles seemed incredibly illogical most of the time, like there was no reason for them to be there other than the game wanted them there.

The elevator puzzle would not be a puzzle at all if like 4 guys were present, or if anyone weighed more than a washing machine (so, let's say about 100 pounds).


The idea isn't that it's a checkpoint but that at first glance it does not look like a useable path... the railroad is designed to be disguised so the combine can't predict their movements, while still allowing for rapid travel through difficult terrain.

Washing machines are pretty fucking heavy. Have you lifted one lately? It's definitely easier to pick another human being up, anyway.

Dracko wrote:
Mr. Toups wrote:
can we at least give valve credit for not being obsequiously patronizing?

No.

Because they fucking are.


No, Zelda is obsequiously patronizing. Bioshock is. Half Life at least respects the player enough to let him figure things out at his own pace... Please list games in a similar idiom from the past decade that are less patronizing...
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:17 pm        Reply with quote

boojiboy7 wrote:
oh my god immaculate wrote:
boojiboy7 wrote:
oh my god immaculate wrote:
Do you approach every videogame like this?


When I don't like something, and a lot of people do like said thing, yes, I do take the time to figure out why. Whoops.


Except that pointing out that something in a videogame doesn't work exactly like it would in the real world (even though it was closer than you were) doesn't mean anything.


Except that the driving feature of the game is theoretically physics that work like the real world.


No it's not.
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Toups
tyranically banal


Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep

PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:01 pm        Reply with quote

I am always happy to replay half life...
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