[another god]

Nice, kap, way to keep the with the brocraft.

Btw, who did/didn't play the beta? I got into the beta 2 days before the game released. I was on the fence of getting it on release, but those few beta games and the digitial downloading was just too easy. I ask because I feel like I'm behind a lot of players solely bc of inexperience with the beta. But the matchmaking has been really good to me and I think I'm due for a platinum upgrade soon.
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interdimensional

[Pat the Great]

i got into the beta around march.

other than the basic mechanics, the never-ending balance changes during the beta meant we'd be playing a drastically different game every week until the last three weeks or so.
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-pat m.
twitter

[Kappuru]

[Kappuru]

[Pat the Great]

1-supply, 2-armor roaches, the early larva bug, marauders with built-in grenades, tank splash that wasn't quite so good, stronger void rays, those two weeks where overseers had infested terran and infestors had frenzy...the list goes on.
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-pat m.
twitter

[ninjafetus]

There's a lot of cheese because it's harder for people to find a good set of builds that's safe versus all cheeses than it is for people to learn one cheese and rack up enough wins to get relatively high ranks before they hit the wall of consistently good players. As the game progresses I think those people will get weeded out naturally. It still sucks, though :p

[another god]

Cheese doesn't even phase me anymore. It feels really good. Scouting at 9/10 and knowing what certain building setups do is *key*. If anyone's having trouble I can give a Terran gameplan for early game to get over the cheese-hump.

Edit: I'll do it anyways:

As a Terran your basic build order goes as such:

Build a lot of SCVs. A fucking lot of SCVs, seriously.

At 10 supply immediately make a depot
Your 11th SCV should finish right when ur depot finishes
At 12 rax and scout (base corners for cannon rush, their base for their builds)
At 13 refinery
At 15 orbital command and your rax should finish so make a marine

This is where things can get tricky - scouting should tell you what to build. Fast expanding Zergs means get a factory with a reactor and pump out helions. Zerg with a few drones means 6 pool - get ready to micro some SCVs to build a bunker and attack some lings with your marine. Toss buildings give you an idea of what they're going for - 2gates might mean rush - look for what's being chrono boosted. If you see 2 refineries on a Terran, you better rally your rax to your minerals - the enemy is gonna be doing reapers.

I try to put my rax and supplies in a way to build a wall vs. Zerg or Toss, but sometimes that might not be enough. Baneling busts need bigger walls, and 2v2s usually have ramps that are too wide. Get lots of units to defend the wall.

Once you survive cheese you pretty much have the game in your hands. Even if you suffer losses - so did your enemy. Make sure to watch your enemy. If you think you have a shit ton of units - sacrifice a marine or an SCV to see if they expanded. Try not to use scans early game because the fast minerals are super useful. Think about it this way: 270 minerals will buy you 5 marines to scout + do some damage. One of the best things about Terran is that you can build a second CC *inside your main*, upgrade it, and use its energy. I do that all the time. It makes expanding much better.

At around 40-50 supply you should have a feel for what their game plan is. If you don't this is probably when you scan to see. Get the right counters and go. General tips - Ghosts vs. Toss are key. Lots of stuff all crazy vs. Zerg is also key. Seriously, harass is their only means to a W - shut that shit down. Patrol has helped me so much there.

Edit #2:
One other thing about beating cheese! You probably won't kill them! If you beat cheese that means you owned their attack, but you're only ahead economically. Don't go in for the kill immediately after beating a cheese or your easy advantage is now gone.

[Broco]

[brckrd!]

What it reminds me of is when Street Fighter 4 was first released: Kens. Kens everywhere shoryukening everything. Shoryukens on wake up, shoryukens across the screen, shoryukens everywhere. They're not getting any better or learning anything about the game and neither is the person playing against them.

During that game of mine I described on the previous page, I actually asked the person (as he was begging me to surrender so he could rank up) why he would possibly want to rank up? His all-in, void rush (that wasn't even that fast) will just lose even harder in the higher ranks. He just responded with "I know. But please!". I think there's a lot of cheese because it's just more attractive to many players to get the occasional win with minimal effort... compared to actually learning the game.
Just as a flowchart Ken player rubs his/her thumb against the bottom right (or left, depending on position) of the d-pad and mashing R1 rather than learning about the concept of footsies and zoning.

It's just aggravating because I'm not good at Starcraft 2 as it stands so I'm stuck in the lower ranks for now. And it's practically swarming with players who cheese so I don't think I'm learning as well as if I were to play someone around my skill level actually trying out a standard build.
To put it in Street Fighter terms, I'm learning to block but I'm not learning about zoning, mindgames, mixups or footsies.
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[another god]

This is super good:

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1yaK73J9GwM4CzyIF5A-qCtaamoinqWf7rGH-S8N2JJk&pli=1
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interdimensional

[brckrd!]

[another god]

The only caveat with that list is that it gives you build orders to get things fast, but sometimes it lists things that are not so good (e.g. Immortal rush vs. Zerg) in general. You still need to scout, see what the enemy is doing, and adapt.
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interdimensional

[Pat the Great]

build order test maps are a good way to get hands-on with that stuff, too. I used YABOT once or twice and i really like it: http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/yabot/

i just played a handful of custom games to try and get my protoss legs up, and i can't for the life of me figure out why people are cheesing so heavily in custom 1v1s. i played three games in a row where i got 6-pooled (and managed to beat each of them fairly handily--I don't think 6 pool is a great idea against Protoss). I could understand trying exotic cheese builds in custom, but...it's a 6 pool.

here's the replays if you wanna watch. i don't play it perfectly, but neither do they.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5405076/Steppes%20of%20War%20%285%29.SC2Replay
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5405076/Steppes%20of%20War%20%286%29.SC2Replay
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5405076/Steppes%20of%20War%20%287%29.SC2Replay
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-pat m.
twitter

[another god]

The reason 6pool fails is because

1) It's an all-in that more than cuts in half your economy
2) Your opponent has A LONG TIME to build MORE UNITS. I'll play that test map to see how fast I can get a 6pool zerg troop out later tonight, but that PLUS the time it takes to run across the map just seems like forever. Forever.

Most early game cheese is exactly this way. In fact, if you're just building troops and defending, make sure *not* to put them at your gate. Instead, make a sacrificial scout out in front far enough to early warn, and keep a big chunk of troops wandering your base in full-on defense.
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interdimensional

[ninjafetus]

7 pool is actually pretty good in ZvZ, especially if you take a couple drones to make spine crawlers in their base :p

[negativedge]

Just going to post in here to say that I really do play this game a lot and when I scared Parker on steam I wasn't kidding.

[another god]

[another god]

Also, guys! Post your "game name.character code" so we can get some games going. Standard format looks like this: sigurd.563.
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interdimensional

[Pat the Great]

i already posted my realid in this thread, but pattheflip.729.

i've been having sleeping problems of late (sunday nights really fuck me up) so i ended up getting some 1am starcraft 2 on. problem is, it just wakes me up even more.

been working on learning the nuances of non-Tank/Viking Terran. Reapers + early expand is working splendidly against Zerg. Toss w/ early void rays is still consistently ruining my shit--I try to make an early push with like, 7-8 marines, 1 marauder, and 1 ghost, but i get stuffed at the ramp and the VR counter kills me.

TvT is getting more interesting (right now I'm going for early marine/hellion push, transition to marauder/thor) but I need to remind myself to stay mobile--I've lost a few games just because I let them set up outside my base with tank/viking.
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-pat m.
twitter

[another god]

Pat! I just got into platinum! We should play some games again.

Anyways, I totally understand the late night SCing. I was pretty good with a slight buzz the last couple weeks. I guess I was in the zone and just made the right moves at the right times. Today I drank some coffee and I'm excited, so I'm having a hard time concentrating... and I've turned my 3-0 platinum start to a 3-3 stalemate. Sad face.

As far as matchups goes - I really dislike TvT. It's really super focused on fundamentals. Get lots of infantry, then as soon as you're good with infantry get some siege tanks, then vikings, and then march across the field getting more stuff. Don't fuck up, because that means losing troops and then u get rolled. Sometimes you can do fun things like drops, but, holy shit does that make the game super intense. I kind of love it, but there's never a "aha I got the right counter" moment because the other guy *should always be kind of doing what you're doing*. I've had more base trades TvT than any other race, which makes sense for a lot of reasons, but it seriously wrecks my shit mentally.

...
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interdimensional

[Pat the Great]

I hate losing TvT because i usually just feel like i'm losing to the same shit, but when I can beat tank/viking with some marauder/thor play it feels SO good. attacking a bunch of unsieged tanks on the move is the best feeling ever.

my next project is to learn how to play with ravens. think there's a lot i can do there.
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-pat m.
twitter

[another god]

PDD is awesome vs. BIG DAMAGE ATTACKS (e.g. siege tanks). In fact, I think a group of marines and mauraders vs. sieged tanks would *win* if you had PDD.
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interdimensional

[Pat the Great]

Does PDD catch tanks? i thought it only intercepted visible shots and marine bullets.

edit: thought so. according to http://starcraft.incgamers.com/wiki/Point_Defense_Drone

PDD only catches visible shots (so no marine bullets either).
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-pat m.
twitter

[another god]

I am lame.
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interdimensional

[ninjafetus]

PDD can help you (a little bit) in your Viking battles, though. It also stops missiles from turrets, I guess. I think the easiest way to use it is with banshees attacking a toss expo when the toss has no starport. Stalkers can't shoot the banshees and they definitely won't have enough sentries to help.

[Pat the Great]

I was actually wanting to use Ravens for low-risk turret drops in the mineral line. PDD is cool too though.
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-pat m.
twitter

[ninjafetus]

If you completely outclass your opponent you can also use a lot of ravens to spell out 'lol' with turrets in their main. If you want to be a jerk, that is :p

[another god]

I am in the mood for some Starcraft 2 tonight. Anyone else down?
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interdimensional

[ninjafetus]

Back in town and once again have access to non-hotel internet. Someone play SC with me tonight!

[Broco]

So I finally ran out of Practice League and did my placement matches tonight. So I finally found out where I stand in the pecking order: low Silver. I won 3 out of 5 but I the ones I lost were against Silver-level players (I asked after gg). Guess I should start following the advice in this guide: http://www.gamesradar.com/pc/starcraft-ii/preview/a-gentlemans-guide-to-losing-at-starcraft-ii/a-20100226104617602007/g-20070518211627437097

I had stayed in Practice a long time because I wanted to familiarize myself with all three races before going into ranked, so I wouldn't feel afraid of switching race later on. Anyway, now that I'm playing for real I can see what difference those destructible rocks made. I know in principle to expect rushes, but it's still surprising just how fast and in quantity the early armies come in. Practice league gave me lots of experience with massive macro and late-game armies that I gather is hard to pick up normally -- I did finally figure out how to crack turtles -- but my early-game habits are all wrong. There I am running my economy efficiently and building what I perceive is a reasonably sized army, when one 50% larger waltzes up my ramp. But I like it, games are much faster now, I just need to rehabituate my play for the new tempo.

BTW, about that replay, I waited too long to find out where it was and it seems to have been overwritten... I wish they were cloud-synced.

[another god]

That's some dedication, Broco!

As far as "getting rushed early game" don't worry about it! Make pretty average troops (e.g. troops that can kill anything the enemy can send at you, but not necessarily particularly well) for a while, scout, and then poke at their weakspots. Remember! You have the time it takes to travel the map to make more troops than they do! So if you're building as fast as they are, you have something like 45 seconds of more build time! Early game that's like 20% more units! They might know what you're going for (e.g. Marines) and they'll build counters (zealots) so you might need to pre-empt that (e.g. Mauraders) but if they scouted *that* you might be in trouble (in case of Colossii/void).

Anyways, Broco, what's your name? My IRL friends all started out silver, but I think they're moving up to gold. Maybe we can practice a few?
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interdimensional

[ninjafetus]

I have a friend from work who's starting to get into the game. He was literally starting from step zero, having played a bit of SC1 and WC3 single player. I'm playing 2v2s with him and showing him the ropes. It's kind of neat when I point out things like, "you can right click the minerals and your command center will automatically put the SCVs there so you don't have to move them individually" and he's like "WOAH thanks!"

Of course, it doesn't always work. We were playing a team of two protosses, and they were obviously teching to colossi. I'd been giving him some advice on what stuff to build, so he had a good amount of vikings. I tell him, "See those tall walking things? That's what the vikings are for. When they push, you need to kill them with the vikings so that my speedlings and hydras can kill the stalkers without instantly melting." He gets it, he's ready, and then the Protoss pushes. What does he do? He flies the vikings over, LANDS THEM, and starts to attack the colossi in fighter mode. We die >.>

You know, it makes sense. Colossi are ground units, so he thought he had to do ground attack mode! It was a good laugh though. We have a bunch of those moments along with good ones where everything works and he gets happy. His favorite strategy now is getting BCs while I harass and keep them in their base for a while. Yay copper league. ^_^

ANYWAY, I'll be on Bnet off and on today most likely. If you see me on, feel free to message for some games!

[Broco]

[sarsamis]

Man, ever since I discovered Nexus Wars it's been hard to go back to the real game. It's broken in that it always ends up with one of like 2 unit combinations dominating the field, and lazy as all hell to play, but it's an amazing time sink, which might be the only reason I play SCII to begin with.

[Talbain]

Yeah custom maps are evil and addictive. I would play Roundabout Wars more, but it's just so easy to dominate the field with Spectres that I just don't bother.
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[LandRoverAttack]

Hey, this thread has been really cool and I learned a lot from reading it. I only started playing two weeks ago without any prior Starcraft experience (and only a little playing WCIII with friends on LAN and doing very poorly) so I really appreciate all the advice and such here. Hoping I can share humiliating defeats with some people with knowledge.

That said I'd certainly be up for games, my incredibly dumb character name is DoteUpAZerg code 564

Also does anyone have a clue how placement matches work?
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[skelethulu]

[another god]

I hit platinum a while ago and then won 3 of my first 3 matches. I went up to ~6th place in Plat, got cocky, and then lost a lot of games. After getting knocked down to ~55 I climbed my way back around 20. I'm super scared to play SC2 online now, though. I... I'm just kind of scared.
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interdimensional

[LandRoverAttack]

[Pat the Great]

Just got out of plat and into diamond after a weeklong tear. I think for a good chunk of my platinum stretch I've been playing against Diamond players anyway, but now I'm seeing a lot more Terran 1/1/1 openings, which is fun. I'm enjoying my TvT.

Also, experimenting with hellion harass in some custom games. I love how dropping hellions on the mineral line causes people to group select their probes and get them to run away--which bunches 'em up real nice for some hellion fire.
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-pat m.
twitter

[another god]

I hated helions for *so long* before I started doing mineral line attacks w/ them. If only Medivacs could be upgraded to heal mechanical units (maybe while being transported? Yeah that'd be sweet).
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interdimensional