[Pat the Great]

I wrote up a quick tips for SC2 newbies on my blog, submitted it to Reddit, and got over 11000 hits. behold the power of bored nerds. http://ohsnapson.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/how-to-play-starcraft-2/

Hours later, my boss walks in and says, "Pat, you know what would be really cool? A beginner's guide to StarCraft II."

It'll be on the PCWorld front page over the weekend, if I'm not mistaken. Fun stuff.
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[Pat the Great]

RE: Starcraft 2, I don't think the childhood wonderful mystery is what kept it in action for 12 years. It evolved into a fine-tuned competitive game. I'm guessing the only reason you remember it for the wonderful mystery is because you played the single player, dicked around online for a few weeks, and went off to play something else. That's certainly what I did, until I dusted it off in like, 2003 and realized that there was a lot more to it than I had thought BECAUSE people had dissected the game to death. And even then, there's plenty of wonder and mystery in the high level play--like Boxer's marine/medic micro against a Lurker.

Now I'm an adult, and I don't play games for wonder or mystery. I only really play fighting games and Starcraft (not even other RTSes, just Starcraft).

RE: The guide, it isn't really a "Beginner's Guide" so much as a "Guide For People Who Have A Lot Of Bad Habits From Single-Player".

Why are generalizations like "gather information" and "split your enemy's forces" competitively healthier than specifics like "send a worker to scout" and "You can use force fields to split an enemy's army on a ramp"? I must confess that this irks me a little bit, mostly because I've come across plenty of disdain for StarCraft among self-avowed "strategy buffs" because they like to imagine themselves as some kind of visionary general who can win wars by paraphrasing Sun Tzu and can't be bothered to learn how to play Starcraft.
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[Pat the Great]

Then play Dwarf Fortress.
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[Pat the Great]

Parker: I just mentioned DF because it sounded rather literally like what you wanted to do.

drobe: I don't think that Starcraft deviates from any other competitive activity in that regards. I am something of a competitor in various fighting games and, uh, actual fighting sports, and in all of these you need to learn the rules first before you have a chance to be creative. Boxing, for instance, teaches you to always keep your hands up, but the pros frequently drop their hands as necessary because they're good enough that it doesn't always matter.

"Spontaneous strategy" from a newbie isn't nearly as creative, nor as interesting to me, as an unorthodox play from a veteran player, which is performed not out of ignorance of traditionally successful strategies, but rather because they're so intimately familiar with the traditionally successful strategies(and the underlying gaps) that they believe they have a better answer. That initial stage of development, where you have to learn the conventional plays and responses, is necessary to be creative in a competitive game.

As for "teaching the player how to think about the engagement", I maintain that it's far more intuitive to give the player a technique, explain why it works, and watch them figure out how to apply the underlying philosophy. "Divide your opponent's army" _might_ get a player to try forcefielding a ramp, or it might encourage them to bum rush a seemingly scattered group of enemy units--only to find that a good surround is actually what the enemy wanted. "Corner your opponent" could get one player to establish map control by slowly denying the enemy an opportunity to expand, or it could get him to send his Zergling mob to attack a bunch of Zealots that have their backs to the wall (which is ideal for Zealots, because the Zerglings can't surround them).

I'd much rather say "hey, these Sentries can use Force Field to divide an army in half on a ramp"--he'll realize how well it works when someone tries it on him (and owns half his army), and I'll be pleasantly surprised when he shows me a week later that the same principle can be applied by burrowing an Ultralisk or dropping a Thor onto a ramp at the right time (something which I haven't see yet, but want to try out now).
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[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

Also, http://www.pcworld.com/article/201780/how_to_dominate_starcraft_ii.html?&tk=sb
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[Pat the Great]

I have this mental image of a Selectbutton SC2 club being like a highly ritualized style of warfare, where you announce your unit's presence on the battlefield and challenge the enemy army to a one-on-one duel while the rest of your units watch.

Alternately, y'all could play it like a rough approximation of international politics. When someone attacks your SCV line, you call upon the international community (read: the other SB SC2 club members in the game) to rebuke the aggressor. Non-aggression pacts and peace talks are had. Then some asshole nukes your civilian population, etc. The whole game takes four hours.
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[Pat the Great]

Just bought the digital DL. add me--pattheflip at gmail (yes, i'm giving you fucks my real id).

A lot of you guys have hit the nail on the head in the SF comparison. I will say, though, that if you preface the beginning of each game with "I'm kind of new at this", some people will be more inclined to be merciful and relax a bit--though you will probably still lose horribly.

Go try multiplayer, lose, and watch the replays with a focus on your opponent. I find that demystifying the WHY YOU LOST (in a very concrete way, not someone telling you "Build more workers") makes SC2 a lot more fun.
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[Pat the Great]

$60. Same price (unless you pre-ordered it on sale).

I actually have a CE coming in the mail, but I'm just gonna resell it. Decided I don't care about the stuff it comes with.
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[Pat the Great]

It's time to kick this revolution into overdrive.
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[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

phew, just had a nice sc evening. beat that ridiculous protoss level (on brutal), won a game or two on the ladder, then pwned my good buddies in some 2v2s and a 2v1. good stuff.

2v1 was actually really fun (my friends are sc2 noobs with a fairly typical amount of sc1 experience)--since they could build up faster than i could, I had to use my edge in experience to disrupt their concentration long enough to survive. i also had to put way more effort into macroing effectively, so i opened with reapers one game and void rays the next to buy me some time where i wasn't in danger of being rushed or anything. fun!
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[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

Figured I'd start posting some replays. I'd love feedback!

(I'm "pattheflip").

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5405076/Kulas%20Ravine%20%284%29.SC2Replay

That was the 2-on-1 vs. noobs.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5405076/Xel%27Naga%20Caverns.SC2Replay

A 1v1 I lost because I made some stupid plays by my ramp.
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[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

Scan definitely won me a game last night.

I tried to break from my normal Terran play to give Protoss another chance. Lost to early Zealots both times. Do all PvP matches end up with early zealots or 4 gate timing pushes?
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[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

I got an achievement for you winning that game. Thanks.
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[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

Finally beat the campaign mode on Brutal, just gotta go back and play the branch missions to get those achievements.

Fuck the last level. Fuck it with a wooden fucking spoon. I had to replay the last 30 seconds maybe 25 times before I beat it.
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[Pat the Great]

Also, fuck that last Protoss level for basically the same reason.

I'll be interested to see what they do for the Zerg campaign, because the turtle-up-and-pray missions aren't fun without Tanks.
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[Pat the Great]

Nydus/psi emitter.

It looks like the easiest combo is air/mind control towers, since you can spam mind control on the mutas and brood lords and end up with a massive fucking Zerg army.

i did okay with the nydus worms until about 85%, then my banshees were too weak to hunt the ones further away. walled in with planetary fortresses.

my problem was kerrigan herself--she always managed to take out a good chunk of banshees, tanks, and a PF after the first two rounds.

also, i opted for instant supply depots over the +1 gas, which made it hard to get both tanks and banshees.
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[Pat the Great]

I think all the mirror matches are pretty dumb so far, but that's because the game has been out for all of three weeks.

Every PvP game I've had in the release version has been OMG ZEALOT WARS and I'm just now realizing that I should basically be chrono boosting Zs from the very beginning or else I am going to lose. My zealot micro blows, too.

TvT boils down to Let's Play Who Has More Vikings.

ZvZ is like bowling with banelings.

That said, I had some splendid mirror matches in the beta, so I think there's still hope for this game.

As for turtling, I've never had a game last over 30 min because someone was turtling--but I play Terran, and I think tanks are great for breaking turtles. You have to start by finding that one awkward spot where you can hit their expansion. Like on the low ground behind the natural expo mineral line in Blistering Sands, or across from the natural expo mineral line in Steppes of War. A lot of levels have that tactically important spot for the expo which turtles fail to see because they're too busy pointing each tank at their choke. Take that spot, and they'll be forced to either a) move their forces out of position to attack you, which = gg, or b) yield the expansion, which lets you slowly push closer and closer.

If you're playing as Zerg, I think you're just supposed to get shitloads of expos and tech to brood lords to break a mid/late game turtle.

Protoss have options too--Carriers/mothership if you've just got some douchebag one-base turtling with tanks who has long since run out of resources, but you can also get creative with Warp Prisms and DTs and shit.

Post some replays maybe?
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[Pat the Great]

Two more things:

1. Day 9 has a TvT ep I'm watching now, looks promising.

2. Point Defense Drone might help out. The only real counter IIRC is to run away from the area of effect, and if they're turtling they can't do that.
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[Pat the Great]

The Day 9 TvT ep is here: http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3883580/

haven't finished watching yet but I adore his enthusiasm for the game.
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[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

[Pat the Great]

hahahahaha.

yeah, gaming bravado doesn't really fit too well on SB.
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[Pat the Great]

I've been on a roll (plat) with early Terran aggression--Marine/Hellion opening in TvT -> Marauder/Thor, Morrow's 5 Rax Reaper opening against Zerg, and Marine/Ghost against Toss. No tanks/vikings here, no sir.
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[Pat the Great]

Also, just got a new laptop! No more minimum settings wooooooo.
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[Pat the Great]

i got into the beta around march.

other than the basic mechanics, the never-ending balance changes during the beta meant we'd be playing a drastically different game every week until the last three weeks or so.
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[Pat the Great]

1-supply, 2-armor roaches, the early larva bug, marauders with built-in grenades, tank splash that wasn't quite so good, stronger void rays, those two weeks where overseers had infested terran and infestors had frenzy...the list goes on.
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[Pat the Great]

build order test maps are a good way to get hands-on with that stuff, too. I used YABOT once or twice and i really like it: http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/yabot/

i just played a handful of custom games to try and get my protoss legs up, and i can't for the life of me figure out why people are cheesing so heavily in custom 1v1s. i played three games in a row where i got 6-pooled (and managed to beat each of them fairly handily--I don't think 6 pool is a great idea against Protoss). I could understand trying exotic cheese builds in custom, but...it's a 6 pool.

here's the replays if you wanna watch. i don't play it perfectly, but neither do they.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5405076/Steppes%20of%20War%20%285%29.SC2Replay
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5405076/Steppes%20of%20War%20%286%29.SC2Replay
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5405076/Steppes%20of%20War%20%287%29.SC2Replay
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[Pat the Great]

i already posted my realid in this thread, but pattheflip.729.

i've been having sleeping problems of late (sunday nights really fuck me up) so i ended up getting some 1am starcraft 2 on. problem is, it just wakes me up even more.

been working on learning the nuances of non-Tank/Viking Terran. Reapers + early expand is working splendidly against Zerg. Toss w/ early void rays is still consistently ruining my shit--I try to make an early push with like, 7-8 marines, 1 marauder, and 1 ghost, but i get stuffed at the ramp and the VR counter kills me.

TvT is getting more interesting (right now I'm going for early marine/hellion push, transition to marauder/thor) but I need to remind myself to stay mobile--I've lost a few games just because I let them set up outside my base with tank/viking.
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[Pat the Great]

I hate losing TvT because i usually just feel like i'm losing to the same shit, but when I can beat tank/viking with some marauder/thor play it feels SO good. attacking a bunch of unsieged tanks on the move is the best feeling ever.

my next project is to learn how to play with ravens. think there's a lot i can do there.
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[Pat the Great]

Does PDD catch tanks? i thought it only intercepted visible shots and marine bullets.

edit: thought so. according to http://starcraft.incgamers.com/wiki/Point_Defense_Drone

PDD only catches visible shots (so no marine bullets either).
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[Pat the Great]

I was actually wanting to use Ravens for low-risk turret drops in the mineral line. PDD is cool too though.
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