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FGC'12: Secret Jackie Chan Technology ITT
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Sniper Honeyviper



Joined: 30 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:41 pm        Reply with quote

someone make a fightman with no one but dhalsims and zangiefs
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Isfet



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:55 pm        Reply with quote

Sniper Honeyviper wrote:
someone make a fightman with no one but elena
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P1d40n3



Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:28 pm        Reply with quote

nothingxs wrote:
P1d40n3 wrote:
You lose, HARD at the character select screen. You lose hard to frankly, braindead shit.


10 more years?


Honestly, if Capcom is FOR REALZ about some of these fixes (and initial reports are that they are coming down hard on Jean and X-factor, which is a good sign) I don't see why this game couldn't last 10 years...assuming Capcom doesn't make a Marvel 4.

RE: Balance

I think the question here is what defines balance? You don't need a reference point for it, since all balance is relative to other things within the same game (KOF13 Raiden v ST Akuma. 5-5 matchup?). What you do need is to determine whether you balance with respect to characters, or balance with respect to playstyles.

If we speak w/r/t characters, we had a new issue of differences between characters. A game with nothing but shotoclones would probably be pretty balanced, but also pretty boring to play. <INSERT>

If we speak w/r/t playstyles, we need to then realize that there's the distinct possibility that we can play however we want...as long as we pick within a small sub-pool of the available options (SEE: top tiers in Marvel).

And of course, we also need to realize that balance isn't a binary, it's a spectrum. And that's the crux of the Phoenix issue I think. One side argues that since there are Phoenix counter-techniques both known and to be discovered, she isn't broken, so the game is balanced, so there is no problem. The other side responds that while Phoenix isn't broken in the most literal sense of the word, she's still overpowering and game warping, in very unfun and uninteresting ways.

And muave, I feel you're ignoring the fact that overpowering X-factor makes a lot of those steamrolls possible in the first place!

And regarding Booster's argument about Capcom not making balanced fighters, I think James Chen brought up a very relavant point in this discussion. Capcom likes to design characters/engines/tools and let players run with them. While they (supposedly!) do some playtesting, Capcom seems to prefer letting people play the game for a while, and then balanced after that. Contrast this with Blizzard, who the moment they even hear a whisper of something, they come down like...well, a blizzard.
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analogos
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:52 pm        Reply with quote

guess this is mostly @Booter:

I'd also just like to point out that when you say Third Strike or MVC2 isn't balanced because some specific handful of characters utterly dominate the rest of the cast, you have to remember that it took several years for the game to even get that way. I think it's a little ridiculous to hold it against the battle designers that they didn't account for the way the game would look five years down the line, especially considering all the potential contributing factors that ultimately informed its being played that way.

I mean, "lol capcom jus can't balance SHIT!!!" and yet they've remained far and away the games still getting the most play all these years. Where are all those games getting it so much more right, and why aren't they being played? And I don't pose that question to absolve Capcom of all criticism, I'm just genuinely curious what standard of balance anyone might be holding up as a point of comparison.

also yun is good but in general AE is really not that broken
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mauve



Joined: 07 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:01 pm        Reply with quote

Of course you need a reference point for balance. The strongest characters are those who, by nature of the system's mechanics, play the game to the benefit of the other characters the most. So you can't just make whatever-the-fuck the character, it needs to fit within the context of not just the system, but the other characters that have been created for it as well. Those who fit poorly with either the mechanics or the other characters available are going to be weaker by definition, so you need to decide what your baseline is going to be within that game or you'll end up tuning too hard in one direction or the other.

And I'm not ignoring those steamrolls, that's for sure. X-Factor level 1 or 2 does make the difference between nearly killing someone and completely killing them flat out. But the game would be hopelessly dull without it too, as it stands right now, since the game does need something to compensate for guessing wrong just a couple times in highly controlled situations. Even without deciding to blow it early to kill someone off, you'd still have the same problem of a single reset or okizeme setup causing the same issue. A good example here is any match vs Phoenix will generally involve a lot of resets or snapbacks into setups because long combos build too much meter for the opponent. Too easy to setup pure guessing situations that are in your advantage.
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nothingxs
various methods of escape


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:08 pm        Reply with quote

Pat the Great wrote:
i'm really happy for you nothingxs, and imma letchu finish, but guilty gear is the greatest fighting game series of all time.


Guilty Gear gets the balance of interesting characters and playstyle variety JUST right. In fact, the only problem with Guilty Gear is its insanely obtuse barrier of entry for anyone to be good.
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analogos
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:08 pm        Reply with quote

I still think SF4 might have benefited from a visible stun meter. An explicit visual indicator of the reward for staying offensive could have potentially gone a long way toward informing the way people play the game and the risks they're willing to take.

on the other hand it'd probably just make folks even more angry about yun
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nothingxs
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:20 pm        Reply with quote

A visible stun indicator would've been good and I always wondered why that wasn't kept from 3S. It was one of the smartest features in it.

I've also always been very partial to guard meters; unfortunately, guard break would've worked great in Vanilla. Now it's a terrible idea since offense is so good already.
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Focus



Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:31 pm        Reply with quote

kuroda
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nothingxs
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:32 pm        Reply with quote

Focus wrote:
kuroda


What's the point of this post
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haze
la belle poney sans merci


Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:39 pm        Reply with quote

analogos wrote:
I mean, "lol capcom jus can't balance SHIT!!!" and yet they've remained far and away the games still getting the most play all these years.

also Tekken!
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tataki



Joined: 20 Jul 2011

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:06 pm        Reply with quote

Booter wrote:

same thing with mvc3. phoenix ruins the game. why even bother putting arthur in the game if he has so little opportunity to win? what was the point of even including him in the game? wouldn't the game be better if all of the characters were closer in power? if not, why?


Funny example since Arthur does pretty well against Phoenix himself.
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negativedge
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:37 pm        Reply with quote

nothingxs wrote:
Pat the Great wrote:
i'm really happy for you nothingxs, and imma letchu finish, but guilty gear is the greatest fighting game series of all time.


Guilty Gear gets the balance of interesting characters and playstyle variety JUST right. In fact, the only problem with Guilty Gear is its insanely obtuse barrier of entry for anyone to be good.


unfortunately that's a really big problem

I did play a rather shit-ton of X and XX, though
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mauve



Joined: 07 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:53 am        Reply with quote

http://typemoon.org/products/cp/outline.html

MBAACC PC confirmed.

Revving up the Caster hacking engines here already. I want to get my F-Akiha on.
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BotageL
pretty anime princess


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:10 am        Reply with quote

Wha--

Fuck, when do I get to place my order? I will force the local Anime Krew to play MB and we'll fucking like it
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Focus



Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:22 am        Reply with quote

nothingxs wrote:
Focus wrote:
kuroda


What's the point of this post


i really like kuroda's Q and i think he does a good job with him. (this is limited in scope, i'm sure.)
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Drem



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:18 am        Reply with quote

mauve wrote:
http://typemoon.org/products/cp/outline.html

MBAACC PC confirmed.

Revving up the Caster hacking engines here already. I want to get my F-Akiha on.

I think this was already confirmed when the new update was announced, actually. Regardless, it's nice to hear some news about it. Little sister martial arts girl is waiting for me.

Footage of Relius Clover is hitting the net now.
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ionustron



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:16 am        Reply with quote

Kinda wish when AE goes Koryu, there'll be a mode where the moves of every character is just put into a massive folder and are doled out to random slots and reset every 4 weeks presumably at the end of a tourney with an ai tabulating player tendencies for no useful reason. It would be horrible but I just want to see more grotesque street fighter models (don't post that Chun-Li fanart please.)

Course I'd be happy if they just made a Blanka dlc costume that looks like that damn action figure.
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1CC



Joined: 08 Oct 2010

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:49 am        Reply with quote

I want to play Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, but I don't know which version I should get. What's the consensus on the HD remake? Is it superior to the original and did it replace it in tournament play?
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P1d40n3



Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:17 am        Reply with quote

Quote:
Of course you need a reference point for balance. The strongest characters are those who, by nature of the system's mechanics, play the game to the benefit of the other characters the most. So you can't just make whatever-the-fuck the character, it needs to fit within the context of not just the system, but the other characters that have been created for it as well. Those who fit poorly with either the mechanics or the other characters available are going to be weaker by definition, so you need to decide what your baseline is going to be within that game or you'll end up tuning too hard in one direction or the other.


Regarding reference points, I think I misunderstood you at first. When you said reference points, for some reason I was thinking you were talking about some kind of point external to the system. Yes, I understand and agree that when one is talking about the internals of a system, having something to balance 'around' definitely helps but I would also say it is no necessity. In theory, I can't see a reason that we couldn't have a game that has wildly out of left field characters, that still manages to be balanced, at least from a strategy point of view. Marvel 2 comes to mind...

I am also going to take issue with your idea of characters that 'fit' within the system being strong, by using the age-old example of ST Akuma. I would point out that while Akuma 'fits' well with the engine of ST, he 'fits' poorly with the characters of ST. The major things that make Akuma broken tie into the obscene blockstun on his air fireballs, which has nothing to do with what makes the rest of the cast 'good' which is zoning and footsies. Engine fit? Check. Character fit? No way in hell. Powerful? Abso-fucking-lutely. Indeed, if we would allow ourselves to strech outside of fighting games, I can tell you as a former Magic player that the historically best decks weren't decks that 'fit' with other decks. They were decks that refused to fit, that refused to interact, and that could force the other decks to 'fit' with them, which they often could not do!

See, the thing is, there is simply no way to say universally what makes characters, or even strategies, strong or weak. Some are strong because the invalidate the engine, getting around rules that are supposed to keep them in check. Others exploit these rules and play within them. Some are just such strong characters that the engine surrounding them almost doesn't matter (SENTINAL!!!! MAG-FREAKING-NETO!!!!). It's really a case by case thing.
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BotageL
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:23 pm        Reply with quote

1CC wrote:
I want to play Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, but I don't know which version I should get. What's the consensus on the HD remake? Is it superior to the original and did it replace it in tournament play?

HDR's actually come up a couple of times in the past few pages. It's generally pretty well-regarded, as if nothing else a good idea and a noble attempt at adjusting the game after a dozen years of competitive testing. Tournament standard seems to fluctuate around whichever camp bitches the most at the time, leaning toward the original Super Turbo of late.

If you just want to play the original Super Turbo, there's really no beating the arcade version on an emulator. Though I'm pretty sure you can set the game system in HDR back to arcade ST if you like.
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RobotRocker
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:42 pm        Reply with quote

Guess what upcoming fighting game is getting a PC port

No, not that one. Or that one either. But you will like this one

Cerebella, Peacock and Filia hats for TF2 please
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Ymer



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:54 pm        Reply with quote

Yeeeessssssss
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BotageL
pretty anime princess


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:38 pm        Reply with quote

RobotRocker wrote:
Guess what upcoming fighting game is getting a PC port

No, not that one. Or that one either. But you will like this one

Cerebella, Peacock and Filia hats for TF2 please

This isn't really a surprise, given that they've been developing it on PC since day 1. It was basically just a question of when they were going to have the time/effort to polish it up for public consumption in that form. Apparently they're solving that by hiring another dude to help!
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radish



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:42 pm        Reply with quote

RobotRocker wrote:
Guess what upcoming fighting game is getting a PC port

No, not that one. Or that one either. But you will like this one

Cerebella, Peacock and Filia hats for TF2 please


Is there an advantage to getting the PC versions of fighting games?
I'd figure there'd be more of a scene with consoles (but maybe the online play is better with PC?)
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ArOne



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:51 pm        Reply with quote

BotageL wrote:

If you just want to play the original Super Turbo, there's really no beating the arcade version on an emulator. Though I'm pretty sure you can set the game system in HDR back to arcade ST if you like.


The one chink in HDR's armor is that if you switch the visuals to classic sprites, it only changes the character's visuals. You still have those terrible background animations and the sprites are slightly upscaled so the don't look that great. Personally, I am not a big fan of the UDON art for HDR, but the game it self just aces.
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Deets



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:36 pm        Reply with quote

radish wrote:
Is there an advantage to getting the PC versions of fighting games?
I'd figure there'd be more of a scene with consoles (but maybe the online play is better with PC?)

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Sniper Honeyviper



Joined: 30 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:59 pm        Reply with quote

Hyper SFII was never even considered for being a tournament standard, right? I've read Insert Credit's scathing old review of the game, but can anyone explain more specifically just what was wrong with it? I know they fixed all the glitches.

It has the distinction of being the final CPS2 game, at least (long after the CPS3 died)!
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P1d40n3



Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:19 pm        Reply with quote

RobotRocker wrote:
Guess what upcoming fighting game is getting a PC port

No, not that one. Or that one either. But you will like this one

Cerebella, Peacock and Filia hats for TF2 please


Hats yes plz.

Fuck, I wish I lived in LA. I would apply for this position so fast...;_;
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Pat the Great



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:25 pm        Reply with quote

Sniper Honeyviper wrote:
Hyper SFII was never even considered for being a tournament standard, right? I've read Insert Credit's scathing old review of the game, but can anyone explain more specifically just what was wrong with it? I know they fixed all the glitches.

It has the distinction of being the final CPS2 game, at least (long after the CPS3 died)!


I think it was in Evo 2k6 or something. CE Bison was too broken to live, IIRC.
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nothingxs
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:53 pm        Reply with quote

CE Bison was absolutely goddamned retarded in that game. There were also some blatantly bizarre bugs (Vega walldives in Super / Super Turbo come to mind).
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P1d40n3



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:55 pm        Reply with quote

nothingxs wrote:
CE Bison was absolutely goddamned retarded in that game. There were also some blatantly bizarre bugs (Vega walldives in Super / Super Turbo come to mind).


On a scale from Vanilla Sagat to AE Yun, how retarded was he?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:55 pm        Reply with quote

Sniper Honeyviper wrote:
Hyper SFII was never even considered for being a tournament standard, right? I've read Insert Credit's scathing old review of the game, but can anyone explain more specifically just what was wrong with it? I know they fixed all the glitches.

I distinctly recall it being at SBO as well
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BotageL
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:57 pm        Reply with quote

SBO has run a lot of games that really didn't deserve to be there, though.
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Sniper Honeyviper



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:03 pm        Reply with quote

I figured they would've only allowed ST/Super X characters in tournaments? I can imagine the CPS1 characters clashing pretty violently with the CPS2.
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Pijaibros



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:13 pm        Reply with quote

CE version Guile and Ryu are also God Tier. can chain jabs/shorts for dizzy and has that Four Fierce combo for another dizzy. Plus that untechable throw damage.

It is stupid retarded. The Hyper Anniversary though nerfed Bison slightly by making a blocked Psycho Crusher do less chip than genuine arcade edition. Yet, he is still so good. Then again if it is an all CE char tournament, well then who cares.

BotageL wrote:
SBO has run a lot of games that really didn't deserve to be there, though.


Never forget Capcom Fighting Jam. I really wish to see those Warzard chars in MvC3 someday.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:04 pm        Reply with quote

ArOne wrote:
The one chink in HDR's armor is that if you switch the visuals to classic sprites, it only changes the character's visuals. You still have those terrible background animations and the sprites are slightly upscaled so the don't look that great. Personally, I am not a big fan of the UDON art for HDR, but the game it self just aces.

That's because that art was HIDEOUS. God, what were they even thinking? If even one animator was on that project, so many visual issues would've been noticed like the ridiculously off-scale background/npcs and the terrible off-model/off-arch/off-EVERYTHING frames of animation. I don't even know how anyone could look at that and think, "alright, job well done."
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Sniper Honeyviper



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:14 pm        Reply with quote

The early samples of HDR's art looked amazing, but the project was horribly rushed and they had to cut some pretty severe corners. It was far, far too labor-intensive to redraw every frame of animation in that original level of quality.
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BotageL
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:21 pm        Reply with quote

Sniper Honeyviper wrote:
The early samples of HDR's art looked amazing, but the project was horribly rushed and they had to cut some pretty severe corners. It was far, far too labor-intensive to redraw every frame of animation in that original level of quality.

Also, and most importantly, they didn't hire animators at the outset, they hired comic book artists who lacked animation experience. And holy shit did it ever show.
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Pat the Great



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:38 pm        Reply with quote

P1d40n3 wrote:
nothingxs wrote:
CE Bison was absolutely goddamned retarded in that game. There were also some blatantly bizarre bugs (Vega walldives in Super / Super Turbo come to mind).


On a scale from Vanilla Sagat to AE Yun, how retarded was he?


IIRC, he had something like a seemingly random 50/50 crossup into knockdown with a meaty psycho crusher that you couldn't really hit him out of, plus braindead 100% combos with his scissor kicks.
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1CC



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:15 pm        Reply with quote

BotageL wrote:
1CC wrote:
I want to play Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, but I don't know which version I should get. What's the consensus on the HD remake? Is it superior to the original and did it replace it in tournament play?
If you just want to play the original Super Turbo, there's really no beating the arcade version on an emulator. Though I'm pretty sure you can set the game system in HDR back to arcade ST if you like.


Thx for all the info. I never liked the look of HDR either, and why is it so stupid expensive on the PAL PSN store? Arcade emulation sounds like the way to go then. Though I think I'd miss a Vs mode with stage select, and a Vs CPU mode that isn't quite as soul-crushingly difficult.
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