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FGC'12: Secret Jackie Chan Technology ITT
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BotageL
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:51 pm        Reply with quote

I'm quite vocally inclined to dislike CS2 since my low-execution, high-damage, high-threat rushdown character is now a high-execution, low-damage, medium-threat rushdown character, but that probably just means I'm a scrub. This whole thing's been a great exercise in learning just how little ArcSys actually thinks through their game-wide system changes when they attempt to adjust the balance of each version of a game. We killed mid-screen wallbounce combos to kill Bang and dramatically slow down our already slow combofest videogame, and the characters least affected by this (aka the new top tier) are also easily the most boring characters in the entire game. Good job?

Throw in the sheer obnoxiousness of more-or-less relearning the game from scratch if I decide to change characters and I'm probably just gonna play Arcana Heart.

I think BB is trying harder and harder to appeal to a certain class of player, who are more interested in showing off how big their execution penis is than in playing a game with more interesting or flexible dynamics. Doing big showy combos is cool and all, but it feels like games like Marvel and Arcana have a better balance between the level of showiness needed to be competitive and the difficulty of actually setting up and using these tricks.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:01 pm        Reply with quote

BotageL wrote:
This whole thing's been a great exercise in learning just how little ArcSys actually thinks through their game-wide system changes when they attempt to adjust the balance of each version of a game.


Hey man, don't lump guilty gear in with blazblue.
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BotageL
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:14 pm        Reply with quote

I'm pretty much convinced Guilty Gear ever working out was a happy accident.


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klj5j6li
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:20 pm        Reply with quote

Well Guilty Gear wasn't just a paycheck like the licensed games, and it also wasn't run by a huge moron, i.e. BlazBlue.
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BotageL
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:27 pm        Reply with quote

Interstellar Dinghy wrote:
Well Guilty Gear wasn't just a paycheck like the licensed games, and it also wasn't run by a huge moron, i.e. BlazBlue.

Mind expanding on this? Namely, which individual(s) you believe had the most influence on the game design of the respective series? Not art direction, story, etc., but the actual way these games play and what they were shooting for?
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Deets



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:39 pm        Reply with quote

I was always under the impression that Accent Core wasn't even handled internally by ArcSys, but I can't remember where the hell I heard that.
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Isfet



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: A New York

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:48 pm        Reply with quote

i seem to recall that it was mainly handled by other people because Sega owned it? but, once again, no idea what the details are.

i had fun with BB when it came out and then stopped playing it, but i've gathered that, since then, it's become a very different game and i'm not sure i'd enjoy where it's at now.


as for 3D: HD, well...i assume the filters can be switched off since they even let you do that in SF2: HDR.
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Deets



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:57 pm        Reply with quote

Alex Valle talks to an awesomely unprofessional PR/community guy from Aksys about Arcana Heart 3
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klj5j6li
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:02 pm        Reply with quote

BotageL wrote:
Mind expanding on this? Namely, which individual(s) you believe had the most influence on the game design of the respective series? Not art direction, story, etc., but the actual way these games play and what they were shooting for?


Well from what I've heard BlazBlue has mainly been worked on by some guy named Yuuki Katou, whereas Guilty Gear was almost entirely Daisuke Ishiwatari, who seems like he is just hands down the most competent person at arcsys.

It just seems like Daisuke had a way better idea of how he wanted all of his characters to play within his game while simultaneously understanding how fighting games should work.

Whoever's working on Blazblue is just assigning gimmicks to his anime characters and then desperately shuffling numbers around.
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nothingxs
various methods of escape


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:16 pm        Reply with quote

I'd say Ishiwatari accomplished the surprisingly excellent goal of keeping 2D fighters relevant long after Capcom stopped making anything interesting for a good while, and keeping people somewhat interested in the genre altogether. GG is some super hype shit.
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Brock



Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:21 pm        Reply with quote

Oh hell. I only liked Guilty Gear just enough, so if this thing's a mess I'll probably return it.

EDIT: Not gonna derail the thread with a bump, just gonna say that watching tourney vids for BB:CS has pretty much turned me off from the game. Guess I was just eager to grab a new 2D fightmans to go with my new arcade stick :(


Last edited by Brock on Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Loki Laufeyson
fps fragmaster


Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:59 pm        Reply with quote

i remember reading somewhere that for the original guilty gear, daisuke ishiwatari did practically everything except the voice acting
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nothingxs
various methods of escape


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:01 pm        Reply with quote

Actually he voiced one of the characters too. Sol?
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Drem



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: The Planet Bookshelves

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:06 pm        Reply with quote

Yeah, he voiced both versions of Sol. Sol's voice actor changed in the later games, but in the Options Menu there was one option specifically made to change Sol's voice from the new guy back to Ishiwatari.
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nothingxs
various methods of escape


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:09 pm        Reply with quote

And if you didn't do it, you were crazy, because fuck yeah DI B)
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Sniper Honeyviper



Joined: 30 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:10 pm        Reply with quote

All the music, at least for GG1, X and XX, is Ishiwatari's doing as well.

I wish they'd put Dr. Baldhead as an alternate sprite for Faust somewhere.
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Lasakon



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Oregon Trail

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:17 pm        Reply with quote

Something I've recently noticed about MK, why only have a backwards recovery roll?
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BotageL
pretty anime princess


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:06 pm        Reply with quote

Sniper Honeyviper wrote:
All the music, at least for GG1, X and XX, is Ishiwatari's doing as well.

Ishiwatari still does the music for most of ArcSys's releases, too. The BB soundtrack is definitely not as memorable as his work on the various Guilty Gear games, including Guilty Gear 2, but there are still some solid individual tracks. And Hard Corps, naturally.

Interstellar Dinghy wrote:
Well from what I've heard BlazBlue has mainly been worked on by some guy named Yuuki Katou, whereas Guilty Gear was almost entirely Daisuke Ishiwatari, who seems like he is just hands down the most competent person at arcsys.

It just seems like Daisuke had a way better idea of how he wanted all of his characters to play within his game while simultaneously understanding how fighting games should work.

Whoever's working on Blazblue is just assigning gimmicks to his anime characters and then desperately shuffling numbers around.

I mostly asked to prod into a discussion, since I've long been unsure of exactly how involved Ishiwatari was with the nuts 'n' bolts-level of game design. His contributions to the franchise as a whole are pretty much indisputable, though. And given that Guilty Gear 2 actually turned out really well for what it is, perhaps I have been giving the man too little credit in this area. At the least, he knows how to pick teams.

You can see the character trends moving in the direction of Blazblue starting in the later Guilty Gear revisions, with Robo-Ky, ABA and Order Sol focusing intensely and (more importantly) overtly on specific "features" which their movesets are based around. It's an outgrowth of a trend that was always there in GGX -- Jam's power-up stocks, Johnny's coins, Eddie's self-assists -- but Blazblue made the probably unwise decision to make these gimmicks front-and-center in a much more invasive manner. Each character in BB is wedded to a central concept, some of which are just plain better than others. As long as the game system isn't changed to make that core concept not work anymore, nobody's really going to step out of their boxes.

Except Bang, who seems to have crossed a line in BBCS1 that, in hindsight, I'm amazed they let him cross. He's clearly "supposed" to be a highly-mobile trickster character with a bag filled with risky and constrained tools to try and make him continually shift gears during a match, but they accidentally gave him easy combos that did notably above-average damage which those tools supported well. Using Bang's full bag of tricks in CS1 made you a stronger threat, but you got a ton of mileage just out of instant block -> jab into full combo, or using nails to keep his already strong pressure game going, or other little touches like that. When one looks at the CS2 changes that hurt him the most, like removing mid-screen wallbounce combos and making sweeps universally techable on landing, as not attempts to "balance" a character widely considered too strong compared to the majority of the cast, but instead as attempts to "force" players to approach Bang as he was originally designed (the "Stop having fun, guys!" school of game design), BBCS2 suddenly makes all kinds of sense.
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BotageL
pretty anime princess


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:08 pm        Reply with quote

What all those words mean is that if Arc System Works did the smart thing and put Accent Core with the BBCS2/AH3 netcode on XBLA and PSN, I'd really have no excuse not to play that instead.
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ArOne



Joined: 16 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:15 pm        Reply with quote

The one thing on Accent Core I didn't agree with was techable throws but the window is so tiny, you almost have to predict it and there are also some follow ups off teched throws since some of them have specific tech ranges and angles so it kinda works out. Some said there were issues with the floor skidding and wall sticking adding a level of non-interactiveness. I haven't had to much trouble but then again I haven't played to many AC tourney peeps.

I wait for the days of a Guilty Gear 3 or an Overture sequel with more of the characters making an appearance with bated breath
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ionustron



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:21 pm        Reply with quote

The more I read this the more it sounds like WoW. BB anyway. Goes right back to why I loved pre-Cat hunter, etc. etc.

OMG YES!
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analogos
bravely default crying fairy


Joined: 10 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:36 pm        Reply with quote

Masterful.
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Ben Reed



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: charge b, f + P

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:39 am        Reply with quote

Somebody poke Daisuke and tell him (preferably in a dream, as a burning bush) and Emiko whatshername to make Battle Fantasia 2: Freed Harder. That's MY ArcSys game right there.

IN MK news:
- Sindel = MILF Sagat (minus the eyepatch...and the high tier ranking...but as long as I have Tiger Shots and Tiger Uppercut it's all worthwhile)

- Unskippable Story Mode cutscenes suck ass

- Shao Khan needs to learn not to taunt during a fireball war

- Related: I never want to play as Liu Kang again

- Can't decide whether to go with Tiny Inadequate Vest Sonya or Slutty Sarah Connor Sonya

- I really should be playing Smoke (but half of Orlando is already playing him)
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Sniper Honeyviper



Joined: 30 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:46 am        Reply with quote

yeah, it definitely seemed like they had made both battle fantasia and guilty gear 2 with sequels in mind. too bad blazblue was far more successful than both of them together!
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spinach
hardline radical martian


Joined: 04 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:20 am        Reply with quote

haha what who plays liu kang, it was always all about sub zero
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Mr. Apol
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:58 am        Reply with quote

Sniper Honeyviper wrote:
All the music, at least for GG1, X and XX, is Ishiwatari's doing as well.

I wish they'd put Dr. Baldhead as an alternate sprite for Faust somewhere.


didn't he do the art too?
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analogos
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:13 am        Reply with quote

I think vanilla XX was the last time his actual artwork was used in-game for the Vs./character select/win portrait screens etc.

edit: but if you just mean in general, then yes. he designed all the characters and drafted up keyframes for their attacks and that sort of thing.
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P1d40n3



Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:12 am        Reply with quote

Maztorre wrote:
I'll tell you why:


Was that...an option select super?
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P1d40n3



Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:13 am        Reply with quote

And guys, don't torment me with talk of Battle Fantasia 2.

Watson...
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analogos
bravely default crying fairy


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:23 am        Reply with quote

P1d40n3 wrote:
Maztorre wrote:
I'll tell you why:


Was that...an option select super?


Yep! Pretty much the most legit way to land it that isn't punishing something really stupid like a whiffed shoryu. You can see where he uses a normal to properly space the timing for the safejump right before he does it, too.
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ArOne



Joined: 16 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:37 am        Reply with quote

My only problem with Battle Fantasia is I haven't played enough of it. And I tend to have some mental logic disconnections between a few moves but that is probably just because of the first.

While we're talking wishes, a PC version of Overture should be made so it can have a near endless life span that many games of that sort tend to enjoy. There's just a lot to that game I want to explore but the scene for that game is so dead now.
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Lynchburg



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:49 am        Reply with quote

spinach wrote:
haha what who plays liu kang, it was always all about sub zero


Liu Kang wasn't even supposed to win the tournament so why bother?

Jade is just as much anti-crotch as Johnny Cage, but story mode makes no attempt to explain...
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RobotRocker
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:29 am        Reply with quote

Ben Reed wrote:
Somebody poke Daisuke and tell him (preferably in a dream, as a burning bush) and Emiko whatshername to make Battle Fantasia 2: Freed Harder. That's MY ArcSys game right there.

IN MK news:
- Sindel = MILF Sagat (minus the eyepatch...and the high tier ranking...but as long as I have Tiger Shots and Tiger Uppercut it's all worthwhile)

- Unskippable Story Mode cutscenes suck ass

- Shao Khan needs to learn not to taunt during a fireball war

- Related: I never want to play as Liu Kang again

- Can't decide whether to go with Tiny Inadequate Vest Sonya or Slutty Sarah Connor Sonya

- I really should be playing Smoke (but half of Orlando is already playing him)


I like Sindel a bit. She could have some good zoning capability and she has the tools to keep people off her ass. Goddamn they made float useless in this though (That was one of the things that made her high tier in UMK3). Also her appearance in story mode is amazing (And caused so much internet rage, it was hilarious)

Also apparently you can skip once the gameplay has cached in but only on your second playthrough (Fix that shit NRS)

Though I am thinking of going between Stryker and Johnny Cage for the mains though. Johnny has got some ridiculous mixups and Stryker is just versatile as hell. Smoke is kinda funny as some ridiculous Ultra Violent Naruto character but his mix ups and crazyness are cool. Pop em' Smoke em' Teleport punch. Never gets old.

Going in self-exile from video games for a month to get my dissertation done. But goddamn MK is just so good I'm gonna miss it.
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Moogs



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:01 pm        Reply with quote

spinach wrote:
haha what who plays liu kang, it was always all about sub zero


You don't pick characters in story mode, you're assigned a character for each chapter.

And I don't like Sub-Zero in this game at all.
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Renfrew
catchy, and giger-esque


Joined: 31 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:42 pm        Reply with quote

Moogs wrote:
spinach wrote:
haha what who plays liu kang, it was always all about sub zero


You don't pick characters in story mode, you're assigned a character for each chapter.

And I don't like Sub-Zero in this game at all.


I was listening to a podcast with a guy who play tested the game for months and he said Sub-Zero is going to end up being the best character in the game. Unfortunately, the host was really obnoxious and dumb and wouldn't shut up long enough to let him explain.
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Red_venom



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:23 pm        Reply with quote

lol @ the idea of playing mortal kombat competitively
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Lasakon



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Oregon Trail

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:46 pm        Reply with quote

UMK3 is actually pretty interesting to watch competitively, I don't have much hope for the future of this game though yeah.
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Pijaibros



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:57 pm        Reply with quote

Red_venom wrote:
lol @ the idea of playing mortal kombat competitively


i do not get it? if things like this are giving away money why would it not be worth it?
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Renfrew
catchy, and giger-esque


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:57 pm        Reply with quote

I was on the fence about the previous two episodes of Mortal Kombat Legacy, but episode three is actually really great.
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Red_venom



Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:40 pm        Reply with quote

Pijaibros wrote:
Red_venom wrote:
lol @ the idea of playing mortal kombat competitively


i do not get it? if things like this are giving away money why would it not be worth it?


Oh im just saying its a terrible game
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Red_venom



Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:40 pm        Reply with quote

actually disgusts me that people talk about mortal kombat in threads with actual fighting games
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