[Sniper Honeyviper]

He meant to say Glove on Fight.

It's Gleam of Force.

[mauve]

[nothingxs]

[RobotRocker]

While still silly, I have to commend NRS for actually interweaving Kratos and Freddy into their silly plotlines.



Lack of money means I haven't the money for a point card at all, but gonna grab the season pass if it's still available when it comes through. They did a damn good job with the DLC and hopefully other companies can take note.
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[BotageL]

[BotageL]

[nothingxs]

Transplanted from Forum Axe:

tataki posted:

[nothingxs]

Pat the Great posted:

[Pat the Great]

thanks nxs
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-pat m.
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[RobotRocker]

Cool posts. 3S seems like a sacred cow at times so it's nice to see people put it into words on how its a nice game but not the be all and end all of FG's

Also, SHOCKING CAPCOM INCOMPETENCE NEWS

Ultimate Marvel Vs Capcom 3 was planned for a 2012 release with 58 characters but the higher ups wanted it out before Christmas

Guess what game is getting DLC support, then.
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[BotageL]

I still don't have a problem with how MvC3 turned out, on the whole
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http://www.mdgeist.com/

[nothingxs]

Yeah, seriously. Also, this lends more credence to the fact that Niitsuma told me he also wants Gene, and he's hoping MvC3 will sell well so that they can include him as DLC.
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[RobotRocker]

[negativedge]

why in the fuck would we possibly worry about whether or not it will sell or how "shrewd" or "clever" a "move" it is for Capcom?

[nothingxs]

nedge i don't get the point of your complaint

i need the game to sell well so i can play GENE that's all
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[RobotRocker]

[Renfrew]

[negativedge]

[allensmithee]

the issues i have with DLC characters is what about post-XBL times and stuff?

then how will we have this relic?
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[P1d40n3]

I would hardly call Christmas an arbitrary deadline.
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[Deets]

[nothingxs]

[tataki]

[P1d40n3]

Tataki, you're seeing what you want to see. Yeah, what happened to HDR was a little lame, but don't start connecting that to other games. Take your Justin example; yeah, he QQed a little...then (like literally, the next fucking tweet) he talks about how he learned to deal, and OHSHIT sent ain't a problem.

And SG hate? from where? Yeah, I hear a rumble here and there, but that's just dumb internet talk, talk for talks sake.

Which is of course ignoring the fact that you're acting as if the people who play 3s and the people who play MVC3 are the same, or even that they play for the same reasons, which strikes me as a rather large stretch

[tataki]

[RobotRocker]

[Ben Reed]

Phoenix at EVO...it's hard for me to fault too heavily the lack of anti-Phoenix tech that was present there, because even putting aside the power of Phoenix herself, the tech war in MvC3 is extremely fast and very hard to keep up with. It's hard to fault people for not just being like "welp, time to learn Spider-Man", because even countering a character as powerful as Phoenix isn't quite a compelling enough reason to start learning such an execution-intensive character in the short space before EVO, who might well die well before he gets to challenge Jean Grey. I'm not saying people SHOULDN'T try to diversify a bit...but I wouldn't expect it.

And personally, I do hope she gets nerfed, because I think she's a potentially excellent design (regular Phoenix) ruined by the world's stupidest gimmick (Dark Phoenix). What the hell kind of design pitch was this? "This character is a good all-around rushdown/zoning character with unreasonably low life. But if you kill her with five bars, she transforms into an SNK boss and ruins the game." That's not a healthy design philosophy. Probably the only reason it made it through was that Marvel thought it was cool + INSISTED on Dark Phoenix.

As for "if people just supported HDR a bit more it would have gotten patched"...for HDR, I don't believe that would have happened. HDR always seemed to me like it was an afterthought to Capcom proper (however much community passion may have gone into creating both its assets and its balance decisions), and since they were still kind of watching the effectiveness:practicality ratio of balance patches in those days, I don't think they would have leapt up to throw patch resources at what was probably internally perceived as one crazy gaijin's vanity project. Doesn't seem like that would sit well with Japanese executives.

I do think HDR got a bad rap, though. Say what you will about the rest of Sirlin's design philosophy...that man knows competitive ST like the back of his hand. I think the vast majority of decisions he made rebalancing that game for HDR were excellent (except Akuma, but that puzzle's pretty much unsolvable simply due to the way blocking/blockstun works in ST). It didn't deserve the hate it got...but what's done is done. A little late for a rennaisance now.
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[BotageL]

i'm just come out and give the scrub response here: i don't think it's particularly exciting having a single character who counterpicks over half the cast of the game and essentially requires investment in specific risky counter-counter strategies which are likely to involve completely switching up one's team to win the match against a competent player. sorry. i just don't think that's fun. it makes the game a little too obviously about guessing right in a handful of situations

and yes this is because i'm a bad player and play a bad team and don't put in the effort to have other ones in my back pocket
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[tataki]

[Pat the Great]

RE: MVC3:

I forget who it was, but someone picked Spiderman to counter a Phoenix team at Evo. I don't remember if it was in the semifinals bracket or the top 8 bracket, but it was there. And Spidey got peaced the fuck out. I don't even think he got to come up against Phoenix.

I hate watching Phoenix win, but I actually don't think she embodies everything wrong with MVC3. Not by a long shot. In order for a Phoenix team to win, they have to A) basically not use meter for 80% of the match, B) not use X-Factor until Dark Phoenix is up, and C) successfully block any incoming shenanigans when Phoenix gets snapped in. Even once L3 XF Dark Phoenix is out, I have something like a 30-40% success rate catching her mid-teleport with HSF or mid-air-fireball with Hard Drive, Haggar's XF level 3 super, or Zero's L3 pimp slap. If you put her in a normal team, Phoenix is a huge gamble. You're basically neutering your early game/mid game damage potential and making it very possible that you will lose if you get hit by a single snapback combo.

My problem with MVC3 is that Wolverine, Magneto, and Wesker are all much too good in conjunction with a Phoenix team because all of them build a shit-ton of meter, have easy rushdown (and in Magneto and Wesker's case, decent zoning as well), and pretty much cancel out all the down-sides of Phoenix. All three of those characters can do a shit-ton of damage without expending too much meter. Did your Phoenix get snapped out and killed? That's okay--you still have X-Factor and a bunch of meter to make a comeback with.

Re: SF2 HDR GG etc.

HDR was a chance for Sirlin to do what he's always wanted to do with the game, and happened to coincide with Capcom wanting to capitalize on the impending NA release of SFIV by building a little pre-hype with a downloadable SF2 remake. I don't think Capcom thinks about their older SF titles (including 3s) as anything other than a chance to cash in. They're not invested in building out any of their older titles as competitively viable, I think, and I don't believe a bunch of grumpy old men insisting people boycott SFIV until Capcom succumbs to the pressure and releases a balance patch for HDR would get very far.

Capcom making balance patches is a new thing--one they've been very timid about doing since they know they risk fragmenting the population each time they send one out. But since they can't exhaustively test their games in-house to a competitive standard (and really, who knows if they were ever able to) and fighting gamers have gotten ever better at breaking the game, they HAVE to do balance patches. But they still don't have the infrastructure to pull them off the same way Blizzard can, since they have to deal with PCs, consoles, and the arcade. (They don't have to worry about the latter with MVC3, hence the occasional patch.) This is New Capcom, releasing fighting games with occasional balance patches and a shelf life of about a year or two.

And I'm fine with that, personally. I don't mind that SF2 and GG and 3s will remain in their current state indefinitely. I don't expect Capcom (or anyone else) to work towards making the Perfect Version of any fighting game because I move on and play new stuff too. And frankly, the people who actually give a shit about this kind of thing simply don't have the influence. No one does.
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-pat m.
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[haze]

you scrub, you're not ever supposed to criticize a game from a design standpoint! hail sirlin

[nothingxs]

[Pat the Great]

THE DREAM IS DEAD

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-pat m.
twitter

[nothingxs]

yo.

in there!
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[P1d40n3]

[ryanscott]

I've not played a 'real' fighting game at competition level for years, my last being Soul Calibur 2, and even then it was only really beyond-casual in the sense that there were a few of us that dedicated a decent amount of time to familiarising ourselves with the nuances of a few characters. We were pretty good anyway.

I'm hesitant to bring this up here at the risk of being ridiculed, but the only game I've taken 'seriously' for the past few years is Smash Bros (and please don't think i'm suggesting that it can compare with the likes of SF or MvC). Nobody plays Street Fighter or owns an arcade stick where I'm from, so forgive me.

Anyway, from my experience with fighting games, I'm under the impression that there are always a few nigh-on-impossible match-ups like the one you're talking about with Phoenix, where, as p1d40n3 suggests, the match is all but over at the character select screen providing the stronger team can avoid executional errors. I assume these match-ups are the reason that some characters are seldom seen in tournament play.

Having never played MvC3, let alone at a high-level, I'm probably wrong to comment on the player-error thing, but it does happen often in other games.

[Booter]

the real issue that connects all of the grievances/discussion in the last few posts is the following:

capcom sucks at designing balanced fighting games

i recognize that people want 3S to stay as 3S, that's fine. but the fact that at least 33% of the cast isn't good at winning, and there are 3 characters that are easy to win with, means that the game is not good. it's incomplete. ono mentioned something about intentionally imbalancing ssf4ae because it makes people emotional or something. what? i mean, i could see why they would make one or two really shitty characters, and if people can win with them, all for the better, they did something cool. but the balance in 3S sucks, it ruins the game (for me, at least).

same thing with mvc3. phoenix ruins the game. why even bother putting arthur in the game if he has so little opportunity to win? what was the point of even including him in the game? wouldn't the game be better if all of the characters were closer in power? if not, why?

maybe you could say that they release intentionally unbalanced games so that they can then release iterations that are more balanced in the future. which is an optimistic assumption.

also, i think part of the reason why people were so against a rebalance of 3S is not because they don't think the game needs rebalancing, but because they think capcom will do a shitty job.

i was pretty excited when i heard that arturo sanchez and gang were really going to get heavy into SSF4AE for the pc, because the pc version of the game is easily hackable/moddable. so you could see team spooky's gang doing their own rebalance for AE that could then become its own standard. and to me, this seems like a natural evolution: if capcom isn't going to do it right, the market will do it for them.

so, in closing... i hope for umvc3 (or the next and final iteration) for steam.

[nothingxs]

[mauve]

I honestly don't care that much about balance so much as diversity of playstyle. 33% of the cast not being playable doesn't matter much to me if they're basically inferior versions of other characters. I'd actually go as far as to say balance is a bullshit term that doesn't mean anything anymore, since you need a reference point for balance to matter. Like, what sort of game are you balancing to? This means different things to 3s fans and ST fans and so forth.

Right now both MvC3 and AE have a serious problem with diversity. AE has like 2.5 actually viable playstyles and Marvel has about the same, and if you don't want to play those ways, well, tough, because you're going to get rolled over by the hordes of YunFeiPhoenixWolverines. It's especially tiresome for someone who really likes the footsie/zoning games to watch a lot of these devolve into "get a hit -> combo into knockdown/dead character/snapback -> run advantageous one-dimensional RPS mixup afterwards -> if they got it wrong, run another one until they get it right or die." It makes perfects and comebacks a lot less hype. I'd actually go as far as to say Marvel would be less interesting without the ridiculously overpowered XFactor, seeing as how at least you can do SOMETHING after you guess two or three mixups wrong.

[nothingxs]

mauve <3

I was going to say that this weird driving search for balance isn't as important as making sure that there are diverse playstyles and that they are all fairly viable. This is actually one of the reasons why I liked Akatsuki before it got insane; everything seemed pretty viable and there were some pretty different ways to play it. Not a whole lot, but it felt right.
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[Pat the Great]

i'm really happy for you nothingxs, and imma letchu finish, but guilty gear is the greatest fighting game series of all time.
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-pat m.
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