[diplo]

I've been reading, and am almost done with, an excellent book called The Evolving Self by Robert Kegan. This thread can have a variety of purposes, but I was prompted by the book's general content to think about the physical punishment of children. For me, the punishments administered by my parents varied (being grounded, being sent to my room, entertainment restrictions, etc), but I don't recall a consistent application. I think my parents stopped spanking me around the age of ten, although I wouldn't put it past my dad to have done it a few times in the couple years after that (like when I tried to run away from home). It's hard to say what the effects of the parentally-dealt pain have been. My respective memories aren't traumatic, but the several that I have are unpleasant and violent enough to make me repulsed by the idea of physically punishing my children, if I ever have them. I understand that it's an easy way to reinforce behavioral boundaries (disobedience = pain), but that easiness is exactly what bothers me.

I wonder what opinions people around here have of physical punishment. Is it helpful? Does it work contextually? Should it be accepted?

[allensmithee]

I think a wee bit is okay. I was physically punished, but only very rarely.

I think the problem is some people take no physical punishment to mean almost no punishment at all, which is clearly wrong.
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[Baseballkappe]

I have no idea how anyone could think that hitting children while teaching them that violence is wrong is okay. I don't know, at the very least allow your children to hit you back, fuckers. Also a direct link has been established between corporal punishment and later violent and criminal behavior, so, cool.[citation needed]
I can understand parents hitting their children out of frustration, I know how hard it can be, but trying to rationalize violence in any way is awful and unacceptable.
My father was a strict disciplinarian and sometimes he hit me and I grew up to be a perfectly balanced person who thinks hitting children is a-ok.
It bothers me how this subject is sort of taboo. Rearing children is a private matter and one shouldn't interfere. I often see parents treating their children like shit and I want to scream at them, but I know they'll just get offended, tell me it's none of my business and move on, maybe hit some more.
Corporal punishment (fuck it, any punishment) only serves to feed a culture of repression and violence. It's barbaric and absolutely needs to be abolished and I'm afraid it's not going to happen anytime soon here. Here's hoping though.
Sorry I care an awful lot about this and when I care I get terribly incoherent because what better way to defend a cause.

[bemanimegami]

The idea that one can hit children stems from the devaluing of children as human beings. They are not looked at as full humans until their early twenties in many parts of the world.

I've worked with autistic children who, having never been properly socialized don't understand that they are children; they remember being hit by an adult their entire lives, reacting to it in the same way any other human would.

I've yet to encounter much evidence that violence against children begets violence in adults. We're socialized to believe that violence is acceptable only when it is against children; persons who were beaten as children grow up accept that this particular disciplinary violence is normal. It does not seem to create future criminals so much as to promote the idea that children are people whom it is acceptable to hit.

[Sniper Honeyviper]

i believe there's a book now that makes an argument for some non-violence-related crimes (drug dealing, embezzlement, etc.) to be punished by public flogging instead of jail time.

[Swimmy]

[diplo]

[Tulpa]

I was beaten quite often throughout my childhood and adolescence.

I see absolutely no justification for hitting children that doesn't make the parents seem vaguely insane to me.
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[allensmithee]

Like, I was not beaten. I think I was only spanked twice.

One time my mom put hotdogs in my hair, like smushed them into it though, because I was telling her how much they're gonna taste like shit (they really wouldn't too, she's good at cooking)

edit: missed that bit there.
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[Talbain]

I was spanked quite frequently for various things, screamed at, and some other stuff. I don't agree with it, and in hindsight, my parents wish they hadn't done it. They mostly told me that they simply weren't prepared for kids and didn't know how to respond to the way in which we acted. Basically, as an adult, it's hard to make sense of the behavior of children. You have to be willing to go back ten years (or more) in your mind and try to remember what you were doing and why, and then try to figure out ways to deal with those patterns. That's tremendously difficult, and even more so when you have a living child that's completely dependent upon you to survive.
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[Baseballkappe]

[CubaLibre]

Seems to me there's far more brutal ways to discipline your children. It's not really the hitting that's bad, assuming it's not injurious (though one problem I suppose with corporal punishment is that it's easier than adults think for it to become injurious). It's the emotions that generate it. A calm, rational spanking is much less destructive to a child's psyche than, say, hysterical hatred, rage, or contempt.
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Let's Play, starring me.

[Takashi]

[CubaLibre]

Rational we can debate. Calm is easy.

EDIT: The point is this. Which is more damaging? 1. Spanking a kid a few times when he does something extraordinarily wrong. 2. Shoving your finger in his face and screaming you little FUCKER how DARE you act this way I regret ever HAVING you you ungrateful piece of SHIT

Note that this is not a defense of corporal punishment.
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Let's Play, starring me.

[Takashi]

Yeah, I guess you're right. But there's a reason why the "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you, son" sentence is a such a cliché of this behavior, since it implies that there's a mental state associated to that sort of physical handling. You could say cold or emotionless, but if hitting your own flesh and blood doesn't trigger anything in a parent, then it's pretty messed up.

COUNTER-EDIT: Oh yeah. Basically doing anything our of rage completely voids the purpose of a disciplinary action. That's why justice frowns upon that other traditional social activity known as lynching.
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low-end.net | Whimsy (soon) | Serfdom 2.0

[Takashi]

Both my mother and my 7th Dan Iaido sensei scare the fuck out of me when serious. None of them needs to raise a hand to do so. That's pretty much all you need to know about good parenting.
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low-end.net | Whimsy (soon) | Serfdom 2.0

[Baseballkappe]

While I don't disagree per se, I'd say those two approaches are part of the same continuum. In both cases you're exerting power through violence the child cannot possibly respond to. It's humiliating and dehumanizing, though maybe not in the same measure.
And I have no idea what a "calm, rational spanking" is. I mean, I can vaguely imagine, but it's so sinister I'd rather not think about it.

[This Machine Kills Fascis]

[This Machine Kills Fascis]

[This Machine Kills Fascis]

Last over-long reply to this topic for tonight:

For the last few years I've been working with kids of all ages in schools and after school programs. Some of them are definitely beaten when they misbehave at home. Some of them probably aren't. But when me and my coworkers are looking after them we can't beat them (nor would we want to). Some of the kids can be absolute terrors, and I'd be lying if I said they didn't get out of hand (but then we are usually understaffed 10-to-1). But--y'know--we figure out ways to discipline them and organize them without resorting to violence (or implied violence).

Those of us who are most successful at corralling the kids end up taking on a sort of chummy paternal/maternal role, joking with the kids and having fun, but projecting our voices when things get out of hand. I guess is sounds sort of primitive or coercive, but you can really control a child with the tone, volume, and direction of your voice. Vocal cues seem to be pretty well ingrained. And if you look a child directly in the eyes, sincerely conveying how upset or disappointed you are by their out-of-line actions often they get the message. And then of course there's stuff like time outs and other restrictions ("No Legos today, because you threw one at Joe," "You can't go outside with the other kids, because yesterday you pushed Maria.") Of course, once you decide on a punishment, you absolutely cannot back down on it, but that doesn't mean you can't still look out for them and be their friend ("No Legos, because you threw one at Joe. But, hey, do you wanna play checkers or something?"). Ultimately kids are going to listen to you more often if they like you and respect you (which usually comes from you liking and respecting them).

All this is to say that there are many subtle ways to control kids (and we are talking about controlling other human beings here) that don't involve physical violence, although all my experience is based on group environments and working with other people's children. I have to say, one of the best ways to get a kid to behave or follow directions is to threaten to tell their parents how they've been acting. For some kids, the real threat there might be shame, but for others, I guess I am indirectly threatening physical violence.

So I don't know.
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"Godzilla could be anyone."

[CubaLibre]

someone drop a link to tlp in here and lock thread
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Let's Play, starring me.

[This Machine Kills Fascis]

Aw man, did I say something stupid or crazy-sounding? I feel like I talked too much and probably spoke beyond my depth of knowledge.
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"Godzilla could be anyone."

[CubaLibre]

Not particularly, just the way you were framing the topic sounded very familiar.
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Let's Play, starring me.

[Guillotine]

yup

[Toto]

I was never hit but I have memories of my Dad yelling at me to the point of my starting to cry. I was always an obedient child anyway, so those instances were rare. I don't know if I'm more scarred by the yelling than I would be if I was hit lightly instead or whatever.
Nowadays when my Dad tries to yell I yell back or I just laugh (which is the most infuriating thing someone can do when you're trying to be serious).