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| Who is the real Santa Claus? |
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| Total Votes : 2 |
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evnvnv
hapax legomenon
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: the los angeles
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 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:16 pm |
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| The King wrote: |
| Jam wrote: |
| I'd keep my kid in the dark in front of the television for as long as humanly possible. |
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Mr. Apol
king of zembla
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: a curiously familiar pit
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:20 pm |
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| internisus wrote: |
I would not do the Santa thing, partly because I don't want my kids believing in nonsense and partly because we wouldn't be celebrating Christmas. However, I would come up with a warm and delightful set of friend-gathering, gift-giving rituals for the winter solstice.
I also wouldn't come right out and tell them it's bullshit (I'm not going to preemptively make a list of things that aren't real and teach my kids not to believe in them; of course) until they picked it up somewhere else and came home saying "Billy told me about a magic man from the North Pole who comes down your chimney and brings presents!" Then I would say, "Darling, that's just a story some parents use to trick their kids into behaving well. He isn't real, and your friends will find that out when they get older. But don't be sad! There are so many wonderful things that are real!"
As a terribly serious secularist and naturalist, I'm not sure what to say about the idea that kids should be encouraged to indulge in make believe and stories and such. I suppose I might go in for that with fairy tales and so on, but I would avoid the mainstream myths that persist in our culture so as to avoid any confusion as they grow up. Wouldn't want to indoctrinate my own kids in everyone else's bullshit. Anyway, I think true stories told with the right kind of language could be just as wonderful to a child.
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| My parents did the Santa thing, but decided once I started getting terrified that Santa wouldn't bring me things because I had been bad, it was time to stop that bullshit. |
This is part of why I don't think Santa's a healthy idea. I'm probably naive about children, but I'd like to think it's possible to raise kids to be good for the right reasons and not just because they want to get stuff.
This is all just thinking on my feet right now. I would read all kinds of stuff before making plans on how to raise kids. |
i would hate to be your kid
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Mr. Apol
king of zembla
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: a curiously familiar pit
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:21 pm |
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| Quote: |
| As a terribly serious secularist and naturalist, I'm not sure what to say about the idea that kids should be encouraged to indulge in make believe and stories and such. |
you are literally the dumbest motherfucker
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:30 pm |
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Don't feed the troll, kids.
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allensmithee
polyglamorous
Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Location: wherever it is, im dying to get out
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:31 pm |
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| Quote: |
| As a terribly serious secularist and naturalist, I'm not sure what to say about the idea that kids should be encouraged to indulge in make believe and stories and such. |
Jorge Luis Borges.
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The King
Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:31 pm |
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Apol,
sounds like internisus is drawing his line roughly at
Fiction (as fiction) good
Myth (as truth) bad
Myth (as fiction) good
I don't really see why that would make him
| Quote: |
| the dumbest motherfucker |
and if he literally fucked your mother, well, high five Internisus.
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Mr. Apol
king of zembla
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: a curiously familiar pit
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:32 pm |
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my mother is a disgusting drunk
so basically his type
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:35 pm |
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Seriousness aside, please don't quote that arrantly ignorant cretinous creep, guys. It'd be much appreciated.
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:48 pm |
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I'm not sure how I feel about tv w/r/t parenting. Intellectually, I want to say that yeah tv is probably overall not a good thing to expose your kid to in large amounts. Practically, whenever I babysit my sister's kids or my cousin's kids I thank zog for Spongebob and PBS Kids.
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| internisus wrote: |
| You are a pretty fucked up guy. |
True Doom Murder Junkies - Updated On Occasion |
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Lucaz
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:52 pm |
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| Jujyfruits wrote: |
| when i was younger i told my younger brother that santa wasn't real and our parents were lying, he refused to believe me and i told him i just wanted the truth to be known but then my mom overheard me trying to unmask her and got really mad, told him i was the one lying and the conspiracy went on. so yeah, i think i wouldn't do the santa thing. |
I remember that. I believed in Santa for a while longer, and it's was fun while it lasted.
I wouldn't tell a kid he exists, and even less be energetic about it, but for sure wouldn't give him an explanation on how he doesn't exists and everyone else's parents are fooling them.
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evnvnv
hapax legomenon
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: the los angeles
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:53 pm |
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| Lucaz wrote: |
I wouldn't tell a kid he exists, and even less be energetic about it, but for sure wouldn't give him an explanation on how he doesn't exists and everyone else's parents are fooling them. |
for real though, this sentence out of context is basically my ideal parenting style
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stotelheim
The Guy Who Will Give a Kiss for ₩ 5000
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: swan diving off the tongues of color coded giants
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:07 am |
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as a dude who really loves kids and is hella looking forward to having kids and raising them right i want to remind guardian about the time i told him to never have kids and to repeat that suggestion once more
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:25 am |
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Santa's fine. From reading the reservations in this thread, I'm pretty sure that 95% of the concerns about incorporating Santa into holiday rituals reflects adult angst with regard to cultural myth much more than it reflects what the kid's going to get out of it.
Let kids have fun for Christ's sake. Innocence happens once in life, and it's probably shitty parenting to diminish the pleasure to be had through innocence because you've got your own agenda. They'll figure it out, and they'll have a great time until they do.
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bza
a very bad gay
Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Location: A cave in a swamp somewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:36 am |
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I'm gonna love my kids no matter what. Books, stories, music, clothes... it's just stuff. The most important things are abstract and are best taught by example, in my experience. Love, respect for yourself and others, healthy habits, that kinda stuff. Santa doesn't really affect that!
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evnvnv
hapax legomenon
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: the los angeles
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:39 am |
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if my kid is dumb enough to believe in santa claus he ain't gettin nothin
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:41 am |
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| evnvnv wrote: |
| if my kid is dumb enough to believe in santa claus he ain't gettin nothin |
obligatory krampus mention
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allensmithee
polyglamorous
Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Location: wherever it is, im dying to get out
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:52 am |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
Santa's fine. From reading the reservations in this thread, I'm pretty sure that 95% of the concerns about incorporating Santa into holiday rituals reflects adult angst with regard to cultural myth much more than it reflects what the kid's going to get out of it.
Let kids have fun for Christ's sake. Innocence happens once in life, and it's probably shitty parenting to diminish the pleasure to be had through innocence because you've got your own agenda. They'll figure it out, and they'll have a great time until they do. |
I still have a great time with Chrissy, even if I know Santa isn't real. I'm glad I get to pretend again with my nephew.
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sarsamis
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:06 am |
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yeah, I'd do it for fun, but tell the truth the moment they grow skeptical. finding out santa wasn't real was incredibly underwhelming for me. I think I literally said "ah" and went on with whatever I was doing.
| Quote: |
| I'd keep my kid in the dark about television for as long as humanly possible. |
I wasn't allowed to own any vidcons until I could read a novel of my choosing, which was The Lotus Caves, and adequately summarize it to them*. My friends have a lot of nieces and nephews who would have benefited from similar treatment.
*I can't remember a damn thing about it now :/ |
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Tulpa
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:52 am |
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| sarsamis wrote: |
| I wasn't allowed to own any vidcons until I could read a novel of my choosing, which was The Lotus Caves, and adequately summarize it to them*. My friends have a lot of nieces and nephews who would have benefited from similar treatment. |
This is actually a great idea. I'm glad I fell into reading out of some sense of obligation towards not being dumb.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:17 am |
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| Tulpa wrote: |
| sarsamis wrote: |
| I wasn't allowed to own any vidcons until I could read a novel of my choosing, which was The Lotus Caves, and adequately summarize it to them*. My friends have a lot of nieces and nephews who would have benefited from similar treatment. |
This is actually a great idea. I'm glad I fell into reading out of some sense of obligation towards not being dumb. |
I remember talking to a Catholic friend about something like this.
Me: "You know, even though I disagree just as strongly and find the argumentative flaws just as flawed, conservative Catholics are a lot smarter than conservative Evangelicals."
Friend: "That's because of the culture of the Catholic church. Evangelicals make clear that they accept people of any background and any intelligence. Catholics make sure you know that you need to appear smart to be accepted."
I don't know if it's true, but I know that that's what got me started on the road to self-education.
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Mr. Apol
king of zembla
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: a curiously familiar pit
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:19 am |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| Tulpa wrote: |
| sarsamis wrote: |
| I wasn't allowed to own any vidcons until I could read a novel of my choosing, which was The Lotus Caves, and adequately summarize it to them*. My friends have a lot of nieces and nephews who would have benefited from similar treatment. |
This is actually a great idea. I'm glad I fell into reading out of some sense of obligation towards not being dumb. |
I remember talking to a Catholic friend about something like this.
Me: "You know, even though I disagree just as strongly and find the argumentative flaws just as flawed, conservative Catholics are a lot smarter than conservative Evangelicals."
Friend: "That's because of the culture of the Catholic church. Evangelicals make clear that they accept people of any background and any intelligence. Catholics make sure you know that you need to appear smart to be accepted."
I don't know if it's true, but I know that that's what got me started on the road to self-education. |
that's hilarious given the church's previous positions on literacy that led to the reformation.
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jack klugman
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:50 am |
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my parents told us nobody knew if santa was real, and if i wanted to do the research, that would be okay with them
but i didn't, because the loch ness monster was cooler
/edit: oh shit, i forgot that i did catch my dad up on christmas night thanks to my insomnia. when i asked him what he was doing, he said he was eating the milk and cookies that we left out to bait santa. when i asked him why he would eat food left out to see if santa was real, his response was 'i'm not waiting around for somebody else to eat a full plate of cookies.' then he gave me a high-five and we killed the rest of the plate.
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Oh God Spiders No
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:01 am |
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Rather than agonize over whether to believe the beautiful lie
Let us be the change we want to see in the world
We must
BECOME
Santa Claus
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evnvnv
hapax legomenon
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: the los angeles
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:09 am |
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| jack klugman wrote: |
my parents told us nobody knew if santa was real, and if i wanted to do the research, that would be okay with them
but i didn't, because the loch ness monster was cooler
/edit: oh shit, i forgot that i did catch my dad up on christmas night thanks to my insomnia. when i asked him what he was doing, he said he was eating the milk and cookies that we left out to bait santa. when i asked him why he would eat food left out to see if santa was real, his response was 'i'm not waiting around for somebody else to eat a full plate of cookies.' then he gave me a high-five and we killed the rest of the plate. |
Best Answer
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:20 am |
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Hey, Apol, Dracko, go fuck yourselves, and thanks for reminding me why I keep posting here for a week and then leaving for a month. You ever take the time to ask yourself why you're so shit? I mean, how hard is it to just not be shit? I dunno. Maybe try it some time, though.
Oh, stotelheim, you can kiss my ass, too. I don't know what's wrong with you people. I answer the thread question and elaborate with a little ruminating that I clearly state is undeveloped and tentative. Excuse me for venturing some speculation and hypothetical discussion.
Me: "I'm not sure where lines should be drawn for kids at different ages with different types of myths/fictions in terms of protecting them from crap ideas and infectious bullshit."
You: "You have no imagination. You're barely even alive. You're an ignorant fool, and you absolutely should never procreate."
You dumb fucks like to take every word I say out of context or at face value and act like you know me or something. You don't know the first fucking thing.
Last edited by internisus on Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr. Apol
king of zembla
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: a curiously familiar pit
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:26 am |
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:34 am |
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| Mr. Apol wrote: |
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Oh, look, a sarcastic fellow on the internet who knows how to insult people and then be all aloof.
Are you sixteen, or have you just not moved on from thinking you look cool for acting like a complete git? |
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:36 am |
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| AllenSmithee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As a terribly serious secularist and naturalist, I'm not sure what to say about the idea that kids should be encouraged to indulge in make believe and stories and such. |
Jorge Luis Borges. |
I don't know what you're trying to say, but I love Borges and I love make believe and I love stories. Just to be clear. I'm pretty sure my three favorite authors are Borges, Calvino, and Lem. |
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This Machine Kills Fascis
Unfinite Indiscovery
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Inside Thomas the Tank Engine, screaming
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:45 am |
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| evnvnv wrote: |
| jack klugman wrote: |
my parents told us nobody knew if santa was real, and if i wanted to do the research, that would be okay with them
but i didn't, because the loch ness monster was cooler
/edit: oh shit, i forgot that i did catch my dad up on christmas night thanks to my insomnia. when i asked him what he was doing, he said he was eating the milk and cookies that we left out to bait santa. when i asked him why he would eat food left out to see if santa was real, his response was 'i'm not waiting around for somebody else to eat a full plate of cookies.' then he gave me a high-five and we killed the rest of the plate. |
Best Answer |
Yeah, I think that story might completely justify Santa Claus for me.
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"Godzilla could be anyone."
| MrSkeleton wrote: |
| i dont know how to give a thing made of blood but id do it |
| evnvnv wrote: |
| If you die in the axe, you die in real life |
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This Machine Kills Fascis
Unfinite Indiscovery
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Inside Thomas the Tank Engine, screaming
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:46 am |
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Guys, if you keep fighting I'm just gonna Curator this shit and cut it out.
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"Godzilla could be anyone."
| MrSkeleton wrote: |
| i dont know how to give a thing made of blood but id do it |
| evnvnv wrote: |
| If you die in the axe, you die in real life |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:47 am |
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| internisus wrote: |
| AllenSmithee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As a terribly serious secularist and naturalist, I'm not sure what to say about the idea that kids should be encouraged to indulge in make believe and stories and such. |
Jorge Luis Borges. |
I don't know what you're trying to say, but I love Borges and I love make believe and I love stories. Just to be clear. I'm pretty sure my three favorite authors are Borges, Calvino, and Lem. |
Derailing thread to say
<3 Calvino
<3 Lem
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Isfet
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: A New York
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:52 am |
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it's an interesting question, tmkf.
despite my own personal set of beliefs (lol i have none), i personally do enjoy xmas as a holiday and a time of year on some aesthetic levels and i have a lot of nice memories associated with it and santa. that said, i think i'd do the santa thing with my child/ren, as i really enjoyed it myself. and figuring out that he wasn't real wasn't any kind of traumatic experience or anything for me, so i don't really see it as doing any kind of real harm.
if my hypothetical future kids turn out severely fucked up, i'd like to think it's for better reasons than santa, anyway. |
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This Machine Kills Fascis
Unfinite Indiscovery
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Inside Thomas the Tank Engine, screaming
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:56 am |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
Santa's fine. From reading the reservations in this thread, I'm pretty sure that 95% of the concerns about incorporating Santa into holiday rituals reflects adult angst with regard to cultural myth much more than it reflects what the kid's going to get out of it.
Let kids have fun for Christ's sake. Innocence happens once in life, and it's probably shitty parenting to diminish the pleasure to be had through innocence because you've got your own agenda. They'll figure it out, and they'll have a great time until they do. |
I'm not genuinely scared that believing in Santa would somehow harm my kid, anymore than I'm concerned that not believing in Santa would sentence him to being an outcast, or whatever.
So yeah: it's kind of low stakes for me. But it is a choice I'll have to make if I have kids.
I think the reason I really question it is that for me, it would be sort of insincere. I love to hang out with kids, play with them, read to them, and try to teach them stuff. So having a kid in general would be kind of exciting. But the idea of telling them about Santa doesn't excite me at all. I don't really care about Santa. So, in a way, the idea of going to all this effort to build up this illusion for my kid feels sort of arbitrary.
I totally get that if you have fond memories of the Santa myth you'd want to try to create those same memories for your kid (and hey: as a bonus you get to relive them vicariously). But for me to invest in the whole Santa thing, it would feel sort of like, "Well, I guess this is what we're supposed to do...." Despite having plenty of terrible Christmas memories (standard dysfunctional household stuff), I really do get into the Christmas spirit when it comes to that time of year. I'd want to pick out a tree and buy presents and watch Christmas specials with my kid. But really building up the Santa part of it isn't important to me.
You know, I think talking this out has brought me to the conclusion that I'd probably reproduce what my parents did: just let mass culture (TV shows, malls, and other kids) tell my kid about Santa and go along with it until (s)he really begins to question it, then be like, "Yeah, you're right; it's made up. Wanna watch The Muppets Christmas Special, again?"
Edit: Man, I was totally raised in contemporary America.
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"Godzilla could be anyone."
| MrSkeleton wrote: |
| i dont know how to give a thing made of blood but id do it |
| evnvnv wrote: |
| If you die in the axe, you die in real life |
Last edited by This Machine Kills Fascis on Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:59 am; edited 2 times in total |
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:56 am |
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| Tulpa wrote: |
| sarsamis wrote: |
| I wasn't allowed to own any vidcons until I could read a novel of my choosing, which was The Lotus Caves, and adequately summarize it to them*. My friends have a lot of nieces and nephews who would have benefited from similar treatment. |
This is actually a great idea. I'm glad I fell into reading out of some sense of obligation towards not being dumb. |
i fell into it because books were fucking amazing
i mean get trained to read at an early age and then just sit down with any heinlein and it's like, yeah, okay, books are rad
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This Machine Kills Fascis
Unfinite Indiscovery
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Inside Thomas the Tank Engine, screaming
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:03 am |
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Honestly, I think books are a bit too fetishized in our culture. I don't feel the need to teach my kid that all books are better than all movies or all video games.
I get that schools feel the need to force and reward reading in order to shore up literacy rates, but the bias to one media over another is sort of silly (though yeah: at this point a great novel definitely has more to offer than a great video game).
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"Godzilla could be anyone."
| MrSkeleton wrote: |
| i dont know how to give a thing made of blood but id do it |
| evnvnv wrote: |
| If you die in the axe, you die in real life |
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:50 am |
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diplo the past is dead, long live [insert help here]
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:51 am |
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| you can't control me dad :dives thru window and escapes to rock concert: |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:52 am |
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| diplo wrote: |
| you can't control me dad :dives thru window and escapes to rock concert: |
I WAS ROCK AND ROLL BEFORE ROLL COULD ROCK
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Tulpa
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:00 am |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| Tulpa wrote: |
| sarsamis wrote: |
| I wasn't allowed to own any vidcons until I could read a novel of my choosing, which was The Lotus Caves, and adequately summarize it to them*. My friends have a lot of nieces and nephews who would have benefited from similar treatment. |
This is actually a great idea. I'm glad I fell into reading out of some sense of obligation towards not being dumb. |
i fell into it because books were fucking amazing
i mean get trained to read at an early age and then just sit down with any heinlein and it's like, yeah, okay, books are rad |
Man, Heinlein is fine when you're like 12 but as soon as I started thinking about things he became a throw-the-book-at-a-wall kind of author to me.
It's just when you're 8 and don't know what to read it's pretty easy to pick up total garbage and be turned off of books. I read the Hobbit and Odd John and the Wizard of Oz and fell in love with reading.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:02 am |
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For my part, I was new in the country and very badly needed to supplemented lifelong (11+ years) military base friends with civilians and I thought that being well-read was the Way To Go.
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