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cassievania
cassie-no night zone
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Master, the batteries in your Wii Remote are depleted
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 Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:34 pm |
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so is iga's reasoning, given that vampires usually preyed on young women and castlevania had you rescuing maidens even before iga joined. it's still not very sound though, and it's just more awkward to hear then anything.
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cassievania
cassie-no night zone
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Master, the batteries in your Wii Remote are depleted
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:35 pm |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:38 pm |
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How is Castlevania: Legends, though?
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cassievania
cassie-no night zone
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Master, the batteries in your Wii Remote are depleted
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:59 pm |
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i remember finding it awful, especially compared to the previous gameboy game, which came out six years beforehand. belmont's revenge is really the only gameboy game you should play out of the three. the story didn't really jive with me either, or the summary I read of it anyways (Sonia is the first of the belmonts, she was in some sort of a relationship with Alucard), but that's more personal preference then anything. I haven't played Lament of Innocence, however (which that EGM article was about, hence bringing up Legends). Maybe diplo can say if they came up with a coo'er origin story or not.
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:20 pm |
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Are you gonna cover the N64 games?
Just how many CastleVania games have you beaten since you started this thread (I don't know how many there are).
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cassievania
cassie-no night zone
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Master, the batteries in your Wii Remote are depleted
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:30 pm |
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the first n64 game was interesting, but i stopped right at the part where most people hate it/it could glitch up and you'd be stuck forever. I didn't even bother really, since I just wanted to go through the hedge maze anyways. but, no, prolly not. i admit i'm curious about the second one, but i plan to really only play the games i listed + maybe a few i've already beaten.
i've only beaten 2 of the games on my list so far, IV and Bloodlines. III is just wearing me down, so I've taken a break to replay I and Rondo of Blood. looking forward to chronicles, not so much to II and HoD.
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cassievania
cassie-no night zone
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Master, the batteries in your Wii Remote are depleted
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:32 pm |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:36 pm |
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| Sollah wrote: |
| so is iga's reasoning, given that vampires usually preyed on young women and castlevania had you rescuing maidens even before iga joined. it's still not very sound though, and it's just more awkward to hear then anything. |
I think it's one of those things that most people are semi-comfortable leaving under the table even while knowing it's there, and then the person who benefits most from having it unacknowledged proves himself truly clueless by dragging the tooth-riddled carcass from under the table cloth and splashing its viscera over fine china for all to see.
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HarveyQ
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Location: on a beach in a town where I am going to live
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:36 pm |
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i played through SotN equipped with the jewel knuckles and the blue fist
crackin' skulls
the punch noise is so satisfying.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:38 pm |
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| HarveyQ wrote: |
i played through SotN equipped with the jewel knuckles and the blue fist
crackin' skulls
the punch noise is so satisfying. |
Did you ever get the Fist of Tulkas?
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HarveyQ
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Location: on a beach in a town where I am going to live
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:41 pm |
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i don't believe i did
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:42 pm |
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| HarveyQ wrote: |
| i don't believe i did |
Rare item drop from the Lion in the Reverse Library. One of my favorite bullshit weapons. It's a fist weapon that lets you throw a one-hand hadouken.
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HarveyQ
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Location: on a beach in a town where I am going to live
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:46 pm |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| It's a fist weapon that lets you throw a one-hand hadouken. |
and that is why i like SotN.
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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Loki Laufeyson
fps fragmaster
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Beneath the Mushroom Kingdom
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lolipalooza
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Curitiba, Brazil
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:39 pm |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| HarveyQ wrote: |
| i don't believe i did |
Rare item drop from the Lion in the Reverse Library. One of my favorite bullshit weapons. It's a fist weapon that lets you throw a one-hand hadouken. |
AND Kenshiro's Hundred Crack Fist |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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Loki Laufeyson
fps fragmaster
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Beneath the Mushroom Kingdom
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Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:49 am |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| Sollah wrote: |
| so is iga's reasoning, given that vampires usually preyed on young women and castlevania had you rescuing maidens even before iga joined. it's still not very sound though, and it's just more awkward to hear then anything. |
I think it's one of those things that most people are semi-comfortable leaving under the table even while knowing it's there, and then the person who benefits most from having it unacknowledged proves himself truly clueless by dragging the tooth-riddled carcass from under the table cloth and splashing its viscera over fine china for all to see. |
legends is pretty terrible |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:57 am |
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| lolipalooza wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| HarveyQ wrote: |
| i don't believe i did |
Rare item drop from the Lion in the Reverse Library. One of my favorite bullshit weapons. It's a fist weapon that lets you throw a one-hand hadouken. |
AND Kenshiro's Hundred Crack Fist |
I thought that was another weapon that did that! Now I've got to look up the command....
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:49 am |
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8 eyes so bad-good
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tacotaskforce
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Logical, Practical
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:57 am |
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Shanoa is an interesting example of how IGA worked through whatever misgivings he had about a female protagonist. For one thing, she is the sacrifice in the game. For another, for the entire playable part of the game, she has had both her memories and her emotions sealed.
Oh, also she can not wield any weapons. She just transcribes runes onto her arms which summon magical facsimiles of weapons.
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Loki Laufeyson
fps fragmaster
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Beneath the Mushroom Kingdom
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Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:36 am |
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| tacotaskforce wrote: |
Shanoa is an interesting example of how IGA worked through whatever misgivings he had about a female protagonist. For one thing, she is the sacrifice in the game. For another, for the entire playable part of the game, she has had both her memories and her emotions sealed.
Oh, also she can not wield any weapons. She just transcribes runes onto her arms which summon magical facsimiles of weapons. |
well, the scenario design to Ecclesia was at least partially outsourced to Gekko, which explains....well, I'm not sure what all it explains. Perhaps why the villagers are all so eccentric, I guess. I want to say other things seem different with the story (one of the "villains" actually coming across successfully as sympathetic in dialog/action when that's been an apparent aim in several recent entries, for example), but I'm generally reading too much into things and I haven't played/read the script of Portrait of Ruin yet. I'd really like to say that the element of Dominus is a lot more mysterious and unexplained than with previous IGA games but I guess there's the matter of the alchemy stones from Lament, the innocent devils from CoD, the religious cults from Sorrow and stuff. I also want to say it seems like there's something different with character backgrounds but I guess that's not right either.
also, according to an IGN interview with IGA I never remember to comb for details, there were originally going to a small selection of regular weapons so you wouldn't need to worry about running out of MP (although I think the quick MP refill was already part of the plan)
as an aside, I'm not totally sold on Iga as particularly misogynistic, but whatever. take me elenin. |
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lolipalooza
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Curitiba, Brazil
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:50 am |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| I thought that was another weapon that did that! Now I've got to look up the command.... |
Weapon attacks in SOTN are either qcf+attack or back-forward+attack, so!
DAIS, mind telling me more about Gekko? I knew they were responsible for the scenario in Grandia, but that's it. |
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:26 am |
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| lolipalooza wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| I thought that was another weapon that did that! Now I've got to look up the command.... |
Weapon attacks in SOTN are either qcf+attack or back-forward+attack, so! |
One of my biggest dislikes about Symphony is that neither this nor the magic commands are anywhere in the game. |
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Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:39 am |
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magic commands? you mean Wolf Charge/Wing Smash/Sword Brothers? The librarian 'sells' the five 'normal' ones.
lolipalooza, I wish I could tell you more but all I know about Gekko is what you see on that site (and presumably whatever can be theorized from looking at credits that Gekko or apparent staff members are listed in).
also I only just saw this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aaae5ZCfPvw |
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DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:39 am |
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| internisus wrote: |
| lolipalooza wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| I thought that was another weapon that did that! Now I've got to look up the command.... |
Weapon attacks in SOTN are either qcf+attack or back-forward+attack, so! |
One of my biggest dislikes about Symphony is that neither this nor the magic commands are anywhere in the game. |
A few of them are in the manual; the rest are meant to be discovered, which was pretty forward-thinking for the time.
I mean, the entirety of Dark Souls is like this.
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geinou
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:57 am |
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Best part about the first N64 Castlevania:
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bort
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Are you related to Bandai and Namco takes of games Sent from my iPhone
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:55 pm |
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then why bother with dumb historical justifications in a series that makes zero mention of society external to one family (YOU ARE BELMONT; YOU MUST KILL DRACULA). the accusation of sexism only comes when the answer to a simple question is stupid or obfuscating.
also a whip requires the physical strength of a child, it keeps you at a distance from your opponent, etc. all things that would actually favor a physically weak combatant, if that is the road we are going down.
also simon wears a skirt.
i probably shouldn't have replied. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:25 pm |
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That would have been nice.
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Mime Paradox
Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:49 pm |
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I'm sorry, Toll, but that's bullshit.
Yes, it would be exceedingly unlikely for the church to employ a woman the way Shanoa the way was within OoE's story. Even Charlotte's church-sanctioned training in PoR stretches suspension of disbelief. But invoking a desire to maintain suspension of disbelief is a smokescreen; that train left the station decades ago. Saying that this one particular bit among all others needs to remain accurate is no different from saying "I just don't want to".
Say you were the steward of a horror-themed action adventure series focusing on a series of badass vampire-hunters throughout history, and you'd very much like to include a female protagonist, while still acknowledging the realities of the time. There are several ways to go about this, and you've mentioned some of them.
| Quote: |
| You can get around the historical condition by saying, well, this game is based on fantasy, so we can do whatever the fuck we like. Or you can say, this game is set in the modern age, and physical strength simply doesn't matter as much. Or that whether it's a modern society or a fantasy society the game is in, maybe women were treated differently and at least some women were trained alongside men and that's why there's no disparity. |
...OR, if you're truly concerned about historical accuracy, you can fucking try to address those concerns and explain how something as unlikely as a 19th century badass vampire-killer who happens to be a woman came to be, by making that part of the story.
So people wouldn't like the idea of a strong, independent woman back then? Make that part of the story; write it so that it's clear that the church or whomever would have never employed them if they though they'd have a choice in the matter. So she would have to be written as physically weaker than her male comrades? Make that part of the story;
tweak the gameplay so that she's harder to use, or has to do something exceptional to be able to keep up, while acknowledging that her historical and physical context means that some things would be easier for her to do. So they would have likely condescended to her, mistrusted her, openly insulted her, or outright tried to kill her? Make that part of the story. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for all its flaws, did a passable job of portraying what happens when you have a group of powerful women in a sexist context; we found out that they were treated as disposable tools for the mostly-male watchers. This is canon; this is text. Why can't other stories do the same?
Or, you know, they could set the game in the future. I've heard Castlevania does that, sometimes.
This is not asking for perfect parity. This is asking for people to acknowledge that heroism is not restricted by gender, and that men don't have a monopoly when it comes to interesting characters whom one can base a game around. It's asking for people not to treat the women heroes we get as a joke by default. It's asking people to at least have the courtesy to say "I just don't want a female protagonist in my story", instead of claiming that they're bound by some "rules" they break at any opportunity. If you're going to be sexist or misogynistic, then own it.
ETA: And if the only role available to women is "damsel in distress", then for God's sake try to make them interesting within the role. Don't just make her a card-board cut-out. People don't stop being interesting just because they're kidnapped. |
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lolipalooza
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Curitiba, Brazil
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:46 pm |
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Thread needs more diplo and DJ.
It would've been fine if Iga/Ueda said they were just using traditional archetypes, instead of laying bullshit science as they did.
EDIT: finished Harmony again, realizing my main problem with the game is that I always forget that Maxim's bracelet opens one of the three types of locked doors. |
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cassievania
cassie-no night zone
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Master, the batteries in your Wii Remote are depleted
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:14 pm |
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cassievania
cassie-no night zone
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Location: Master, the batteries in your Wii Remote are depleted
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:23 pm |
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| Quote: |
| Yet again, I'm inarticulate and cannot get my actual point across, and it doesn't help that even I can recognize that my own point is stupid. Women in Castlevania, why not, sounds awesome to me. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate, saying that there might be something to his reasoning. |
wow, thanks. if only somebody else explained his way of thinking without writing out several hundred words and sounding sympathetic to it. oh wait
| Sollah wrote: |
| so is iga's reasoning, given that vampires usually preyed on young women and castlevania had you rescuing maidens even before iga joined. it's still not very sound though, and it's just more awkward to hear then anything. |
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:51 pm |
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| bort wrote: |
| then why bother with dumb historical justifications in a series that makes zero mention of society external to one family |
This reminds me of how either Igarashi or Yamane announced that there would be no electric guitars in Lament of Innocence's soundtrack, or a clock tower stage in the castle, because both would be historically inaccurate. You could bring up hundreds of anachronisms that made their way in, anyway, but the best part is that both of these efforts (nixing guitars/clocks) were inconsistent in themselves. If you play as Joachim, the boss themes are replaced with an arranged fusion of Black Banquet and Dracula's Castle, and the latter has an electric guitar doing most of the work; and there are a couple of hallways in the Ghostly Theater stage with grandfather clocks lining the walls.
| lolipalooza wrote: |
| ...that portion will be filled on the map, making it unnecessarily hard to find again. |
Right, I can understand this.
| Quote: |
| there's no simple way to discern [the castles] visually |
I think this is about half-true, and it becomes less of a problem after the maps are separated. If you compare the A and B maps of, say, the aqueduct, or caves, the only graphic differences tend to be slight ones of color; but there are clear contrasts between the A and B maps of the entrance, or chapel, such as the sky turning green in the B version of the latter.
And yes, you press down on the d-pad to warp in the portal rooms. I did not know you could do this for a long time. |
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lolipalooza
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Curitiba, Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:57 am |
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| diplo wrote: |
| I think this is about half-true, and it becomes less of a problem after the maps are separated. If you compare the A and B maps of, say, the aqueduct, or caves, the only graphic differences tend to be slight ones of color; but there are clear contrasts between the A and B maps of the entrance, or chapel, such as the sky turning green in the B version of the latter. |
Yeah, but let's say I wanna kill those Arthro Skeleton dudes, to see what they drop. Or the Skeleton Glass, to gain some levels. I know the area they are in, but is it on Castle A or B? It's hard to say because there's no theme going on to differentiate one castle, as a whole, from the other - even if the areas themselves have some contrast.
It also annoys me how almost all the warps are only available near the end of the game.
I like the visuals a lot (just read your thread again, btw), but the castle is a lot less elegant to navigate through than Symphony's was. |
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Mime Paradox
Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:32 am |
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Toll, I have no problem with the "I just don't feel like writing women as protagonists" argument; while it can be a sign of a problematic mindset--I probably wouldn't invite anyone who told me that for drinks--it requires additional context before one can make a value judgment. However, this isn't the argument IGA was making.
| Quote: |
EGM: Would you make a Castlevania with a female main character?
IGA: Hm, there are difficult problems with that. As a gamer, I think that you become one with the character, and since Castlevania has a lot of male players, it's natural to have male characters. In Rondo of Blood, Maria was a silly, cute aside, but you still had Richter to make it serious. Plus, Mr. Hagihara (the director) had a playful sense of humor. He worked on Symphony as well, and he made the telescope part where, if you pan over to the left you can see a little mouse, and also where Alucard can sit down on the chair and prop his feet up. |
Here, not only do we have an Iga who apparently can't conceive the idea that players may be able to identify with characters of the opposite sex, he is apparently unaware that countless videogames have managed to overcome his "difficult problem"--some, without any hardship at all!
| Quote: |
EGM: After Tomb Raider, don't you think a female character is more acceptable?
IGA: It's possible I guess. Although, I purposefully left the Sonia Belmont character (from Castlevania: Legends for GBC) out of the official Castlevania chronology. (laughs) Usually, the vampire storyline motifs, females tend to be sacrificed. It's easier to come up with weak, feminine characters. I'll think about it more in the future, though. It's tough to fit a female hero into the early history of Castlevania, but as you move into the modern day, females can then more easily become a hero. |
Look at the question: it's not about his games or even Castlevania, but a rather general query about women in videogames and gamers' reactions towards them--and yet, he responds as if games starring women were something that doesn't exist in the world, and as if people hadn't come to accept them years ago. He then segues into discussing story archetypes for a moment, which, as you say, has an inelegant sense of consistency to it. While it's not inherently sexist, advancing this argument as it pertains to Castlevania ignores the fact that a) the franchise has little problem with ignoring archetype and tradition when it suits its purposes, and b) that the initial archetypes are descriptive and not prescriptive, and that c) when he did get around to producing games with female protagonists, his team came up with characters who would be more at home in Castlevania 1999 than they would be in their actual contexts. It's not an invalid argument in itself, but given everything else, there's no reason to believe he's using it in good faith. It is also a drop of relative okayness in the sea of fail that is his answer.
The next sentence jumps back to the indefensible. "It's easier to come up with weak, feminine characters." Yes, yes it is. It's also easier to create cardboard cut-outs instead of characters, and to recycle the same enemy paterns, no matter what abilities you give your protagonist. With that attitude, no wonder we got Portrait of Ruin.
Am I glad that the last two DS games featured female protagonists (even if Charlotte is unquestionably the junior partner in PoR)? Sure. I'm even kind of glad that he managed to find a way to get over his hang-ups, and give us with Shanoa a hero who could be both physical and make with the magic, and who feels rather atypical, compared to the standard Japanese heroine (although I have a feeling that won't last). However, they feel like compromises--characters who came about because he no longer had the clout to ignore the fact that female characters can sell and that people had been clamoring for them--and I have no reason to believe that Iga isn't still a misogynist twit, and I'll gladly extend some venom to whomever appears to agree with him.
That said, your initial defense was mostly tangential to all of this. It was less "creators should create what they want", and more "Castlevania doesn't have female protagonists because of history", which again, is utterly ridiculous in this particular context. Can it be invoked somewhere else? Sure (although that doesn't mean that it would excuse not treating women as people). Not here, though--not the way Iga uses it. Is that what you wanted to say? I'm not certain, given your rebuttal, which advances another argument entirely; however, it is what you said, and therefore it is what I attacked.
On another note...
I'm at the final area of Order of Ecclesia, and having great fun with the wings. I can totally see Diplo's point in an earlier thread, though, that it makes no sense for them to be available only to get across one gap. It should have been granted earlier, or as a purely optional end-of-game bonus. I like how, if you go to the library with them and hold down while standing a pile of books, they'll perpetually make papers fly up. |
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:02 am |
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lolipalooza
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Curitiba, Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:02 am |
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awesome gif
| Quote: |
| EGM: After Tomb Raider, don't you think a female character [in Castlevania] is more acceptable? |
tbh I think this is how the question was intended/interpreted |
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shnozlak
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: pushing crates in the sewer level
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:27 am |
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I think the plot or the apparent gender of the character is about the last thing I would ever care about regarding castlevania.
I want crunchy action, a character that looks good on a t-shirt, big monster sprites, foreboding baroque influenced rock music in either a crazy castle with a few puzzles or an A to B slash and dash.
Then I want to kill Dracula or something like him.
All that, in about that order.
That is the short version.
Details:
If there is a plot or dialog beyond an optional opening crawl I want it to make sense no more that 75% of the time. Because castlevania is supposed to be alike an old monster movie.
The less this is like an anime the better.
As for gender I think Alucard as depicted in SOTN is the sort of man whose masculinity is only increased by his feminine attributes. Like David Bowie or Freddy Mercury. Hes the only video game character I have on a T-shirt that I would actually wear in public on a saturday night. If they can do that with a woman, great. If not, dont bother.
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Last edited by shnozlak on Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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