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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:19 pm |
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I haven't really got the time (at the moment) to muster an adequate response to a post of this length and so rife with incisive and colorful observation, but god DAMN. I have to say, Troops, I salute you. That was an excellent read. Post of the year, maybe?
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:21 pm |
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| Rucio wrote: |
| The weapons don't feel powerful. The enemies will take anywhere from 2-10 shots to kill. When they take non-fatal damage, they don't recognize it. They just keep shooting. There is no indication that you hit them other than maybe a blood spatter on a nearby wall. There is no RE4-esque knee shots, headshots, or likewise. Then, as soon as the arbitrary hit ratio is reached, the enemies collapse ragdoll style. |
Yeah, I don't think this is true. I loved pulling off headshots with the very first handgun you're given. That gun lets out such a satisfying pok-pok-pok, and when you nail a CP in the dome, you know.
Maybe their heads don't freaking explode, but come on. How about the headcrab zombies? Blast a few in the head(crab) with the shotgun and you'll see some results. The pulse rifle's power is pretty vividly evident, too -- don't tell me enemies show no response to that. And have you ever used the crossbow on someone near a wall? I mean, it impales them and pegs them to the nearest surface!
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:49 pm |
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| Szczepaniak wrote: |
| HL2 just shuffled me from one empty location to the next, occasionally fighting some headcrab monsters, and some soldier guys. And maybe the odd chopper, which was more anoying than anything else. Oh, and those stupid sand crab things. |
HL1 does everything you say it does, but then you seem to completely miss every exciting thing that HL2 does, combat-wise. And "one empty location to the next"? HL1 was far more abundant with relatively open, nondescript spaces than the thoughtfully designed areas in HL2, which not only looked great but often had some kind of physics-based puzzles or objects to interact with. As for the enemies -- shit, did you not enjoy using the alien pheromones to command the Antlions? And what about fucking Ravenholm? The headcrab zombies there are remarkable if only for being so disturbing (I mean, their awful screams, and just look at their exposed faces after you've blown the headcrab away), and the place offers so many ways to kill them -- it's hardly "one empty space". You've also just come into the possession of the gravity gun at that point, which itself is far cooler and more versatile than an entire arsenal of weapons. And then there's fighting the flying vehicles and striders with RPGs, which I loved... I mean, I don't know. I think you're just writing off a lot of awesomeness out of some kind of spite, or something. HL1 is still great, and it has a few things that HL2 doesn't (like the tripwire mines), but to insist that the sequel is not overall a massive improvement seems ridiculous. As is the notion of hating the game so much because it won't let you kill important NPCs.
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:00 pm |
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| Szczepaniak wrote: |
| the first one allowed you to kill NPCs, so why backtrack for HL2? |
Well, HL1 didn't actually have the more fully realized characters that HL2 does -- you had the generic "Barney" clones and a bunch of scientists. Even the clone-ish insurgents that fight alongside you in HL2 have more personality than the friendly NPCs in HL1, and hey: they can die. I suppose Valve drew a line with the more important friendly NPCs because HL2 is much more movie-like with its narrative -- you're not just alone, occasionally overhearing soldiers talking about that bastard Freeman who's totally gonna get it for killing all their friends; you're involved with a group of people this time, and ... well, there's a story being told, and I think Valve expects you to play along.
You're certainly welcome to have your own opinions, Szczepaniak. It's just that I take issue with pretty much everything you're saying about HL2, and it has nothing to do with "mainstream thought". We don't have to agree.
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:07 am |
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What? No, there is definitely a story taking place -- everything that happens in the game is exposition, even the action between the "talking points". You are Gordon, yes, inasmuch as Gordon is a carefully crafted "empty vessel" sort of character -- though still a character within a story -- which I find to be much better suited to the first person experience than a "full" character such as JC Denton (of Deus Ex, which even switches to third-person view for cutscenes). I think the folks who constantly bitch about him being a mute are just lacking in imagination or a sense of humor. I mean, it's not as if the game doesn't poke fun at itself for things like this ("Man of few words, eh?"). If they took away the freedom of movement during talking points, gave Freeman a voice and lines to speak, etc. ... well, people would bitch about that, too. So while Freeman is the empty vessel which the player occupies while playing the game, other characters around him, most importantly Alyx, form the human and emotional core of the story. Which is why she's so damn likeable: she's there for you.
Anyway, I simply and flatly disagree with almost every point Aaron raised. Especially the bits about "no freedom of thought" (what) and the physics being a gimmick.
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:57 am |
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Do you play the Metal Gear Solid games, Aaron?
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:45 am |
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Also,
| Aaron wrote: |
| HL2 doesn't even really start until almost half an hour in |
You know, lots of people who love HL2 might even say that those first 30 minutes are the best 30 minutes in the whole game. Not that it ever dips below awesome, if you ask me, but that whole mise en scène (probably not the right term, but I refer to the whole intense and organic on-the-fly exposition and atmosphere-setting) of the intro sequence is quite special and unparalleled in the world of videogames. The Troops and internisus have already written about this very nicely.
Anyway, yeah, I asked you about MGS because, I mean, talk about extended coffee breaks. In MGS3 a lot of the codec chatter is a bunch of trivia and observations on films of that period! (And don't get me wrong; the game is all the better for it.) More importantly, though, because you complain about the infinite supply crates in HL2, but in MGS you can sneak around under a cardboard box! And that's not even close to being the weirdest or most reality-breaking thing going on in those games; neither are the supply crates in HL2! Did you know that for much of the game you use a weapon that generates its own extremely powerful and concentrated field of gravity? Also the human race is being subjugated by beings from another dimension while a creepy man in a blue suit manipulates things behind the scenes/beyond space and time?
I apologize if my tone is beginning to sound snarky; I'm just having fun.
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:40 pm |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| I made a big long post on this theory on the LPN boards, I can throw it up here if anyone's interested. |
For sure!
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:56 pm |
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| Broco wrote: |
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| Gordon is done - and that Episode 1 is the beginning of a new era for Gordon, signalled by the increased presence of and emotional attachment to Alyx? One where he actually has a will? |
Except Episode 1 is every bit as artificially linear ;_; |
Artificially? Like Cuba said, aside from a few videogamey concessions like the ammo crates, HL2 often behaves as if it's not actually a videogame -- its flow is much closer to that of a film than a more sandboxy game allowing for more freedom of exploration could be. Being an FPS you get the illusion of freedom, but the focus and momentum of the story propels you forward and this gives Valve cause to add rails (i.e. obstructions in the landscape, and little events like Dog creating an opening for you) to keep you on track. These "rails" are naturally quite a bit further apart than they would be in a genuine rails shooter or lightgun game, but the narrative itself is what restricts you to essentially one path, and I don't think there's anything "artificial" about that -- that is to say, its linearity is no more artificial than the illusion of total freedom one gets from a game like GTA; maybe even less so. It's naturally going to feel more contrived in videogame terms, but once again...
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:42 pm |
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This has been suggested!
http://antitype.livejournal.com/463460.html
I'd change some things about that LJ entry if I wrote it now, but it was fun to notice the similarities back when I first saw Children of Men in January.
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Last edited by remote on Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:48 pm |
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What you said made perfect sense, Mr. Wrong, but I don't think I'm actually trying to convince Aaron or Szczepaniak or anyone else that they should like HL2. I love it, they don't; all this intellectual consideration comes after the fact, and our difference of opinions encourages it. It's just a discussion.
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:46 pm |
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Great observations. I am right behind you with these high hopes and expectations, Cuba. Valve have certainly proven so far that they are all about self-assertion and rebellion, and they're a bunch of really smart people, so I have faith that they'll do the right thing.
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:40 pm |
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Cuba, I just read that whole thread at LPN. Well, the first page, anyway -- before it degenerated into a drama-fest (though the subsequent Xenogears discussion was nice. I've still got quite a soft spot for that game, imperfect as it is). Good stuff! You were pretty thoroughly on point for the whole duration, while this Megas guy was mostly jamming his fingers in his ears and screaming I'M NOT LISTENING LALALA (CAPS CAPS CAPS). Your efforts were noble and extremely articulate! Though you never convinced him, you were the true victor.
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:23 am |
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I think I'll pay more attention to the LPN forums than I have, so maybe I'll come to like him, too! I came away from that thread with the impression that he is to the LPN forums what James is to the IC/SB crowd -- i.e. the Shouty, easily riled (though often well-spoken!) one. I did agree with his Xenogears-related insights, at least! I used to consider that to be my favorite videogame O.A.T. as well, up until as recent as three or four years ago, when my interests in videogame narrative and its possibilities shifted a bit (I guess I've become more fascinated with the western influence to which he's so diametrically opposed) -- so anyone who still loves that one despite yet not in denial of its flaws (and without crossing into embarrassing fanboy territory) is endeared to me. The name that I continue to use as my internet alias comes from it (though I like to leave it open to other interpretations), after all.
Hey, why isn't he registered over here, anyway?
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Last edited by remote on Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:56 am |
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| Aaron wrote: |
| I am not Gordon Freeman. |
See, maybe I'm wrong, here, but I think this demonstrates exactly where we're not seeing eye-to-eye. It might be because other aspects of the game fail to compel you in the same way that they compel me, but this all comes after you've decided whether or not you'll place yourself in Freeman's HEV suit -- figuratively speaking. A major part of my enjoyment of videogames comes from the way they bring you in and make you feel either a strong, almost symbiotic bond with your avatar or in the case of empty-vessel and/or (particularly) FPSs that you are that character -- and that character is you. Gordon Freeman is just a name and a face; he's the main character in the script, and you're there to play his part. If you can't play along, then the whole thing is going to be lost on you and you're going to feel like you're being dragged along. It's never going to click. Cuba nailed it: "I wanted to go where they wanted me to go, because I cared."
Maybe this is the game's fault. In my opinion it has a lot to do with the player's willingness to meet it half-way. I see from your post above that you feel it was the game that fell short, though, so. Huh. I think we're at an impasse here.
EDIT: I wrote that first paragraph before I saw your post above. I can't argue with your suggestion that giving the player some means of expression might improve things, though it might make Freeman's personality seem more canned and mechanical, like one of those little toys that says something funny when you press a button, than it actually humanizes him. And so yes, it remains left to your imagination.
Related: hey, maybe somebody should tell this guy to play HL2. Haha.
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/04/_play_storytelling_bah_1.php
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:33 pm |
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Those are interesting ideas, Mr. Mech. I could see that working in certain situations; for example, say you're running through City 17 with your team of rebels and you press the 'interact' key -- Freeman lets out a cheer or an "Alright, everybody, now's our chance!" or something like that, and they respond in kind with boosted morale. It could be interesting. Then again, like I said before I'd worry that it would come off as too canned and it would do more to bring you out of the experience (you might end up thinking, "What the hell, I wouldn't do/say that in this situation," or something). I do believe that Valve's decision to make Freeman a silent protagonist was very deliberate: they want you to feel like it's all happening around you, and you're there, as much as possible -- and making Freeman anything more than the role that you play would take away from your experience and shatter the immersion. I think that's really important. "Point Insertion" might say something about that.
| Aaron wrote: |
| convince me I should have an investment. |
You know, now that I think about it, I think the simple fact that you're playing the game from your own perspective is supposed to make you inherently invested. It's true that you're playing the part of Gordon Freeman, but it's just that simple: from the moment you arrive in the train and that guy says, "I didn't see you get on," you're there. And that's it. If you don't connect with the proceedings then and there, well.
B coma, I think you just want to "mess around" with Alyx, am I right?
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Last edited by remote on Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:40 pm |
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Do you always make funny faces when someone makes a joke? Or did such a suggestion make you feel uncomfortable?
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:18 am |
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| antitype wrote: |
http://antitype.livejournal.com/463460.html
I'd change some things about that LJ entry if I wrote it now, but it was fun to notice the similarities back when I first saw Children of Men in January. |
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