|
|
View previous topic :: View next topic
|
| Author |
Message |
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:15 pm |
  |
|
| The Troops wrote: |
| stotelheim wrote: |
| Did you like Alyx in episode 1 at all? To me, she seemed very fleshed-out and alive. I mean, for being a videogame character. There was just something about all the little touches they'd added to her that made her both likable and lovable. |
She still suffers from eyes-glaze-over voice and script. Maybe that's the point, I don't know. I think they probably planned to have Alyx more like she was in Episode One, but realized they couldn't get it perfect for any length of time without her coming off as robotic. It's easier to do it with a bunch of nameless citizens.
She was well-integrated into all the events, but I guess I just don't like the character in general. You know you would rather have Dr. Breen be the everpresent NPC buddy. Don't lie. |
I dunno man. You're right that the interactions between you and the main characters can become rather stilted and videogamey, but there were some great moments. And, at the least, they all have distinct personalities that aren't total stereotypes, except for perhaps Dr. Kleiner, who is so on purpose (both as a throwback to C3PO-type comic relief and the nameless scientists of the first game - call it fanservice if you like).
Do you remember when you use the teleporter the first time and Dr. Kleiner has you pull the switch, and Barney gives you a smirk and says, "I can see that MIT education really pays for itself."? Or when Alyx gets embarassed at her father's quietly pointing out her attraction to you, and he says sort of like, "Eeeeeeeh," in a way only a middle-aged black man can communicate through inarticulate noises? Or the way Alyx wishes you luck before you descend into the heart of the Citadel?
I dunno, man. That's pretty good shit right there.
What you are definitely right about is that I think the Alyx the developers really wanted is the Alyx of Episode 1. She really comes into her own there. She means something.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
 |
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:09 pm |
|
|
| Mister Toups wrote: |
| Mikey wrote: |
| Part of me wants to say that there has to be an FPS that handled things as well in that department (just because the genre has been around for long enough) before HL2 but nothing is jumping out in my mind. |
Doom. |
You know, I was thinking about that, and while it sort of has a gentle progression of game ideas it doesn't quite follow that SMB Miyamoto plan, I don't think. I'm having trouble putting my finger on why.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:34 am |
|
|
| AutokratorLovestick wrote: |
| tacotaskforce wrote: |
| Actually rocket jumping orginated in DooM, and one of the levels was supposed to be completed using it. |
Kind of, you could use the rocket jump to get to the secret exit in E3M6.
Arch-vile jumping is closer to the quake rocket jump though :( |
Fuck those japanese Metroid people, Compet-N are the godfathers of the speedrun.
The Quake done Quick people are sick, too.
Do you guys actually play Doom for reals? Because some of my very best gaming memories are from me and my friend in middle school playing co-op over the modem. We were a well-oiled machine, man. I took shotguns and all shells, he took the chaingun and all bullets. We had our specialites. Our personalities. We didn't even need to speak. It was a beautiful symphony of death and destruction.
Later, in college, I would form a similar relationship in a very different game (Raven Shield) with a great college friend of mine.
God damn I think FPS co-op is the most intimate experience you can have with another person short of fucking him.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:40 am |
|
|
| negativedge wrote: |
That's what people said about the original Half-Life, you know. That it couldn't be topped. That the sequel couldn't do it.
Well, it did. It took them six years, but they got it.
Of course, most of those people think Half Life 2 sucks compared to the original.
The point is, the WOW factor is more and more difficult to replicate as the years go on. Any idiot coming from Quake could see what Half Life did that was so amazing. It takes a bit more brain power to notice the same thing in its sequel. If there's any developer to have faith in right now, it's Valve. |
Yes. In fact, one of the most notable things about Half-Life 2 is that Gabe Newell refused to release it until he could do exactly what shnozlak wanted: to make it just as amazing and relevant as the first one was. They HAD a full sequel almost done just a year or two after the original HL, in the same engine (the "sonic 3" philosophy) and Newell was dissatisfied and scrapped the whole damn thing.
I implicitly trust a developer willing to go to those lengths.
Also, this just goes to show. If your gauge of quality is what the old man would think, you're doing fine.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:32 pm |
|
|
Also the "boat" and the "jeep" were both squarely in the first half of the game.
I guess facts don't matter when you're trying to be cool by shitting all over something everyone else likes tho
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:36 pm |
|
|
| chevluh wrote: |
| Well, they do in HL2 too. In that department, it does just about everything other PC FPS do. |
Yeah. If you're really looking for some horrible damage, just run right up in everyone's face and unload a double-barreled shotgun blast. I don't think there's anything in the world more satisfying.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:27 pm |
|
|
| Aaron wrote: |
| (because the character doesn't really exist. he has no extension beyond your actions, and no appearance but what's on the front of the box.) |
It seems to me that it will be impossible for you to enjoy this game, then, since that is exactly the point. Gordon Freeman IS you. If that's a leap you're not willing to make, because of your lack of "choice" or whatever else, then this kind of game simply will never have any resonance with you. Keep in mind, though, that this exact characteristic is what makes games games and you will never truly appreciate the medium in its fullness otherwise.
| Aaron wrote: |
| I always skipped the save conversations. The point is to add to the atmosphere I guess, but I never felt it worked. The cardboard box always struck me as a gag in a series that was never quite serious to begin with. It was out of place, but knew it, and made the player aware of its own self conciousness. |
Right - and HL2 and MGS are pretty much on opposite sides of the specturm as far as games are concerned. MGS (2 especially) is essentially a sneer in the face of videogames - well, maybe that's too strong. (killer7 is a sneer.) But it's postmodern, meant to deconstruct such ridiculousness. HL2 takes itself utterly seriously; that isn't to say it doesn't have any humor, but that the game makes no effort and in fact takes great pains to hide the fact that it is a game from you (notwithstanding the "man of few words" kind of thing, which isn't breaking the fourth wall so much as snuggling up against it).
| Aaron wrote: |
The problem with the infinite crate is it isn't strange. It's presented not as a part of this impossible world, but a game device. And a strange one in a game that takes the trouble to store med-packs in crates so you can make the leap to think there's a slight chance they might have been dropped there by accident or something. Unlike much of the level design, which sticks you in a city or wilderness, and then uses abritary means to confine you to a tunnel. That's one reason HL1 worked better is Black Mesa crumbling around you wasn't so abritrary. There were reasons why a security door would be locked, or a room caved in. I spent too much time in HL2 with no feeling of motivation or direction. I was going the way I was going because it was the only way, and I was going because I had to go that way to get to the next story scene.
I mean, come on the scene with the rocket launcher. You know Gordon is going to end up with it. You know there isn't going to be the option to refuse it (which I would have taken btw). Why be coy about it? It's just really twisting the knife. |
What if I suggested that the entire point of Half-Life 2 was that Gordon, presented ironically as the last "free man" and savior of his species, actually has no freedom at all, and is nothing but a tool of the man? And that the end of the game perfectly reinforces this fact - once the job is done, Gordon is done - and that Episode 1 is the beginning of a new era for Gordon, signalled by the increased presence of and emotional attachment to Alyx? One where he actually has a will?
I made a big long post on this theory on the LPN boards, I can throw it up here if anyone's interested.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:20 pm |
|
|
| The Troops wrote: |
| thats because alyx is a woman and all women are controlling bitches |
For reals.
Ep1 is more like a transitionary period - where the rails are applied because of your emotional attachment to the characters rather than to this inevitable and mostly impersonal tide of revolution propelling you toward the Citadel. They're still rails, but they're personal instead of political (or authoritarian, goddamn that G-Man).
Hopefully Ep2 will start widening the aperture; that is, making the "rails" points farther and farther apart with a widening palette of options in between. From the preview videos that have been coming out so far, that seems to be the case... it remains to be seen, though, whether Valve will take this to its logical and awesome extreme (some sort of, Gordon, there's no humongous terrible enemy bearing down on us now, can we rebuild civilization please?) or succumb to fan pressure and keep churning out Ep1 over and over again. I have faith, but I'm waiting on Ep2.
It's also worth noting, as someone said above, that Portal is carrying the torch of HL1 and could split off to become a useful counterpoint to HL2's continuing evolution... we'll see.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:31 pm |
|
|
Oh yeah, I guess I was sposed to post my big HL2 theory. As backstory, I was trying to convince E. Megas, who's a huge fan of Xenogears and narrative in games and dislikes the blank-slate character of Gordon Freeman, to give HL2 a try. You can read the whole thread here. (Special guest appearance by John Hummel! - actually that's who I'm responding to in this theory post.)
| johnhummel wrote: |
In Half Life 1, the goal of the game really comes down to this:
You are in a hole. Get out.
...
Now, Half Life 2 comes out. No more hole! Now, you are out in the open - you can do what you want!
Except you can't. HL2 gave an illusion of freedom and choice, yet it had none. Why am I going up these stairs to get out of this building? Why can't I just blast open this door and go another way? |
Here's where I introduce my pet critical theory about HL2: that's the whole point.
In HL1, Freeman is a scientist. He's brilliant. He's something of an everyman, yet when forced into an extraordinary circumstance it turns out that he has an incredible knack for surviving. There's little choice because survival is paramount, yet the action is self-directed. Freeman is the architect of his own survival. This is why the G-Man offers him the job.
The thing is, by taking the job, Freeman forfeits his agency. He becomes nothing yet a rodney, to be shuffled along on his mission by his handlers. That he is constantly accompanied by reminders that he is thought of as the ultimate liberator is something of a cruel joke. (If you stand around and talk to one of the Vortigaunts for a while, you get this impression. This also the significance of his name.) And the ending perfectly reinforces this fact.
Episode 1 starts to break this cycle, yet keeps you on a linear game path by making Alyx much more of a significant character than she was in the original game. yet we're not talking about Episode 1, so.
| johnhummel wrote: |
| Why did Freeman have to cross over huge pointless ranges of desert to get to another base - and why couldn't I just leave behind that dune buggy without losing the game? Because the developers wanted it that way. |
Well, to be fair, you can leave the buggy behind. In fact, I have a speedrun video on my computer that does exactly that. That's beside the point, though; obviously it's not encouraged.
| johnhummel wrote: |
| And so on. And the story itself I thought was the old Evil Wizard scenario: there is an evil wizard/dragon/scientist up in his tower, and you must defeat them. How? By killing pretty much everything that moves. Why me? Because you are the Chosen One! |
I think this is a disingenuous criticism. Obviously HL2 plays on classic fiction archetypes. That's not grounds for condemnation, if it reinvents and reexamines them fully, as all fiction that draws on archetypes ought. I happen to think it does, although I suppose one could disagree.
| johnhummel wrote: |
| HL1 did away with a lot of that. You weren't anyone special (save for your suit, which you got at the beginning). All you wanted to do was get out alive, and the weakest portions of the game came in when you had to "save the world". |
I disagree. You begin as an everyman and end as a savior - it's a parable about the power of self-assertion. Freeman can rise to such a position because he refuses to say no, and refuses to play games. When forced to say yes, at the end, his entire position is inverted. Half-Life 1 has a desperate air, yet it is accompanied by a feeling of complete self-reliance. You are alone in that hole. Barneys die in 10 seconds. You're on your own.
Half-Life 2 feels altogether different. Bitter. yet the emotional connections you feel with your friends, and the actual combat usefulness of your comrades, lends it an air of hope. In HL1 Freeman is liberated yet alone and therefore constricted. In HL2, he is enslaved yet loved and therefore redeemable.
All of this thematic content is constantly reinforced by the most important design decision Valve ever made: to 1) never let the player have a viewpoint outside of Freeman's and 2) never allow Freeman to talk. Not only does he become an ideal template upon which the player can project his own personality (an aesthetic advantage unique to videogames), yet it simultaneously shows his quiet self-reliance in HL1 and his abject servitude in HL2.
| johnhummel wrote: |
| Maybe if HL2 had been more like Oblivion, or Wasteland even. In either game, you can pretty much go where you want, even if it will get you killed quick - that is your choice. Maybe in HL2 you could have gone after the Evil Scientist in his lair at the beginning, yet you would have gotten creamed (unless you were really good) - yet the rest of the game could have been "If you want to get prepped up, here's all the stuff you can do to get ready", maybe then I would have enjoyed it more. Then the things like crossing the rivers and through the woods to get to Grandmother's house would have been my choice to compile the Uber-Weapon - not because I was nothing more than a puppet on Valve's developers strings. |
I would not be surprised if Episode 2 began very slowly to begin a shift towards this kind of gameplay. The end of Episode 1 marked a kind of end to the willessness forced upon Freeman for the duration of HL2.
If Valve doesn't begin to move in this direction, then I will be pissed. They will be missing an opportunity to really say something with an FPS for probably the first time in history for the sake of pleasing a fanbase that simply wants another dose of concentrated HL2 experience. Of course, that's a typical American developer response, yet Valve has so far shown that they are mostly immune to typical American developer responses. I have hope.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:56 am |
|
|
| antitype wrote: |
| Cuba, I just read that whole thread at LPN. Well, the first page, anyway -- before it degenerated into a drama-fest (though the subsequent Xenogears discussion was nice. I've still got quite a soft spot for that game, imperfect as it is). Good stuff! You were pretty thoroughly on point for the whole duration, while this Megas guy was mostly jamming his fingers in his ears and screaming I'M NOT LISTENING LALALA (CAPS CAPS CAPS). Your efforts were noble and extremely articulate! Though you never convinced him, you were the true victor. |
Hah, well, thanks.
You gotta give Megas more credit. I love that guy. Really! His "combative" style is only semi-sincere; mostly he just makes you think out your arguments. And he's pretty funny. He's also autistic - no, really - which explains a lot. That's not an insult; it just informs a lot of his interactions.
He also really, really, really cares about videogames, and cares enough about them that he works overtime to destroy what he sees as the primarily American initiative to Storytron games to death in an academic sludge of "realism" and "player-based narrative." He's got a point and I don't begrudge him his wariness of Half-Life 2.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:29 am |
|
|
| Aaron wrote: |
| Here it is! He's my main problem with HL2 because I think you're completely wrong, in that HL2 never grants me (past the opening sequence) an illusion of freedom. The rails are too clear and the narrative is actually too weak to provide the push that it should, since most of the time it's 'go there.' There's no clear direction where to go from any external force, except the fact that these rails make it impossible to go anywhere except in the proper direction. This force, this reality of the situation, only serves to remind me that I'm playing a game where all my actions are pre-determined. It's not so much a problem of there only being one route, as it is beating me over the head with it. |
What if that's the point?
In addition: I did not feel this way; I wanted to go where they wanted me to go, because I cared. I am very very curious as to why it struck me that way and so utterly failed for you. That isn't a veiled insult; I would really like to know! Unfortunately that's probably the sort of thing one doesn't discover on intertron message boards.
| Aaron wrote: |
| And I am not Gordon Freeman. I think Valve made a mistake by trying to have their cake and eat it to, that is clearly define both the look and the background of this character, and then leave him as an empty shell in the hands of the player to manage, but then limit the player in what he can do to such a degree that there can be no identification. I resent Alyx because she is the clearly marked love interest, the companion figure whose function is obvious from the outset. I never have a choice in regards to her, so I'd much rather Gordon do the interacting himself to shift this from an empty first person narrative to a fuller 3rd person one. |
To Valve's credit, Freeman's "look" is never established in the game itself. But I guess you can fault them for all the PR copy, yeah.
Alyx, too, is "obviously" the love interest but Valve only toys lightly with that angle and never really takes it anywhere. I mean, there are people always trying to kill you! Valve widely avoids the "love blossoms on the battlefield" bullshit so prevalent in other games. There are three specific one-liners that I can think of that have to do with Alyx's possible attraction to you: two of them are jokes and one of them is sincere and caring and not mushy at all (of course, you missed that one because you didn't play to the end) and ultimately has no romantic payoff; it is only a hint. As an added bonus, she's not sexualized at all. Sure she's attractive but like, in a normal way. I actually find her name's spelling and her "what race IS she?" multicultural pandering to be her most annoying attributes.
I guess my defense of Gordon's silence comes down to this: I can't think of anything for Gordon to say that would make the HL2 play experience, as it stands, any better. His silence is exactly what the game needs. If he talked, it would change the game to the point where it wouldn't be the same game - it wouldn't be saying the same things. That's okay in itself, but those are obviously not the things that Valve wants the game to say - or else they would have made Gordon talk! You know?
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:34 am |
|
|
| antitype wrote: |
I think I'll pay more attention to the LPN forums than I have, so maybe I'll come to like him, too! I came away from that thread with the impression that he is to the LPN forums what James is to the IC/SB crowd -- i.e. the Shouty, easily riled (though often well-spoken!) one. I did agree with his Xenogears-related insights, at least! I used to consider that to be my favorite videogame O.A.T. as well, up until as recent as three or four years ago, when my interests in videogame narrative and its possibilities shifted a bit (I guess I've become more fascinated with the western influence to which he's so diametrically opposed) -- so anyone who still loves that one despite yet not in denial of its flaws (and without crossing into embarrassing fanboy territory) is endeared to me. The name that I continue to use as my internet alias comes from it (though I like to leave it open to other interpretations), after all.
Hey, why isn't he registered over here, anyway? |
Oh uh, nothing happens on the LPN forums any more. I imagine he isn't registered over here because I haven't seen him make a post in months (check the date on his last post in that HL2 thread).
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:59 pm |
|
|
That was a great post, internisus.
I'm still not exactly sure about this interacting with Alyx thing. Can you imagine a Half-Life 2 where Gordon talked and have it be anything but cheaper and emptier than silence? That's one way I approach criticism: as an opportunity cost analysis. It's nice to wish for some sort of interaction, but what form would it take? Would it really be any better than what's there now?
Frankly, given my interpretation (that the game does this to you on purpose in order to make you feel lonely, isolated, and forced to take action with no other choice), making Freeman talk or even interact in any ways other than the ones they give you (shooting things, clicking on people) wouldn't just change the game, but fundamentally alter its nature and theme. Freeman developing into a character of his own is for after City 17. The whole point is that he is not his own man, but is redeemable because he succeeds where no one else can - he asserts his identity by being as powerful as possible within the hard limits that have been set for him. The Half-Life franchise could, if managed properly, present a mature thematic context head and shoulders above any other FPS: a "coming of age"; a self-discovery.
Is Valve developer enough to do it? I dunno; I'm not exactly confident, as it were. But if they can't, no one can, at least not yet.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:56 pm |
|
|
It's too long I imagine. Not that it couldn't be cut down, although it'd be a shame to see.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:04 am |
|
|
The pulse rifle is utterly necessary on Hard.
Great post internisus.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:13 am |
|
|
| internisus wrote: |
| However, already on normal mode there are two parts of the game that always seem extremely difficult to me: defending the position in Nova Prospekt block D-8 with the 3 turrets and 4 entry points, and defending Alyx long enough for her to open up the power generator in Anticitizen One. |
The former is definitely the hardest part of the game. There's a super, super cheap way to get through it though. Since the turrets have no hp and only are deactivated when they fall over, you can simply turn them around and stand them up in their little cubbies where you find them, and then hide yourself in the fourth cubby. All the soldiers will come to you and they will not be able to knock over any of the turrets unless they are extremely lucky with a grenade. Just keep your shotty out and double-barrel anyone that makes it past your neighboring turrets, and gravity gun away any nades that land right in front of you. Simple.
The latter... I didn't find that difficult.
| internisus wrote: |
| It seems to me that you can conceive of this relationship spatially such that the designer's hand -- the railroad -- forms the outermost wall of the game and the emergent aspects occur in the more immediate realm of gameplay enclosed by that definitive boundary. The designer has carefully crafted the flow of the game and its scripted events, and the AI and physics allow for x degree of emergent gameplay within it. |
As I've said, I think that's exactly the point. Valve, I think, is an extremely intelligent designer. Most FPS-related technology up til now has been developed with this sort of game design in mind. Instead of turning the technology upside-down - HL2 took six years as it is - Valve took the limitations of the technology and made that the thematic point of the game. Freeman is "on rails" because Freeman is on rails; he's a puppet. I've gone on and on about this previously in the thread.
| internisus wrote: |
| Earlier, some posts itt speculated upon the change in direction Valve will have to take now that Gordon is free; is a gradual shift in this direction what is meant? Indeed, are these the parameters for a kind of continuum of design philosophies? |
I made that suggestion, and yes, that is exactly what I meant.
I read somewhere (and I forget where) a proposal for a kind of "Freeman of the Desert" game. You're leading a bunch of refugees out of City 17. The G-Man holds sway over you no longer. So... now what are you supposed to do? Rebuild civilization, and fight off the Combine while you do it. Run a community. Suddenly you're in STALKER territory, except with an entirely new added angle of community.
If Valve moves Half-Life in this direction, they'll be doing something with a videogame character that has never been done before. Perhaps the most genius move in videogame history. If they just keep remaking HL2 (now we're on rails on the Combine planet), I will be sourly disappointed.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Unfilter / Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
