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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:49 pm |
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| Rei wrote: |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIRDmYIae4Y#t=5m26s
Don't need audio. |
Haha, I remember this! The hell of it is that, problematic as it can be, I like it because it's this bizarre instance of pushing all of the themes that define the character to the fore, without subtlety, to the point that it creates an image that I don't think I've ever encountered before.
What would a snake's laughter even sound like? Besides a hail of gunfire from the Patriot, that is.
As much as overstatement is one of Kojima's creative-expressive weaknesses, it's also one of his strengths.
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:51 pm |
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 wrote: |
| What would a snake's laughter even sound like? |
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:59 pm |
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| Rei wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| Rei wrote: |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIRDmYIae4Y#t=5m26s
Don't need audio. |
Haha, I remember this! The hell of it is that, problematic as it can be, I like it because it's this bizarre instance of pushing all of the themes that define the character to the fore, without subtlety, to the point that it creates an image that I don't think I've ever encountered before. |
[Creates a bunch of offensive images without subtlety that you've never encountered before. Hopes they're hung up on the fridge.] |
You'll probably have to try harder than the MGS Saga DVD. I edited the English subtitles on that.
EDIT: To address what seems implied here, one of the draws to MGS is that its characters and its locations are grotesques tumbled out of one culture's appropriation of another's media (Kojima's consumption of Occidental movies) to create media that is then returned, stripped of whatever cultural assumptions informed the second product, to the source culture.
The consequence is a series of images stripped of cultural context, given new leaves, and then stripped of those as well, creating captivating grotesques, not totally unlike Flannery O'Connor's characters. Its contents consequently express extremes, which has its better moments (the over-the-top love that men show for other men and its expression in via martial combat) and its worse moments (the BB Unit).
In one of the pieces of promotional content -- I want to say the TGS before MGS4 was released -- Kojima remarked how surprised that the four "beauty" models were indifferent to the fact that their figures would be used to express beastliness due to his assumption that they would be terrified of the "beast" side of the formula. One person's ideas shouldn't be taken as representative of an entire culture's, but it sure does open an uncomfortable door that there's far more happening in these games on both the creative as well as receiving ends within that different cultural context.
We can arrogate a right to claim a liberal standard to bear in our correction of other cultures and the backward ideas that they have, but with shaming as a first response instead of inquiry, we just look like ignorant jerks.
I'm not a bit ashamed of finding that "laughing snake" weirdly compelling. It's a cause for more questions than it is for furrowing my brow in disapproval. Curiosity and stuff.
The creation of images for the sake of offending on those grounds as a way of discrediting the premise on which I enjoy the exaggerated imagery doesn't work, though it, as a response to my response, has a grotesque and exaggerated quality of its own that draws my curiosity much as the original image did.
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:28 pm |
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| Spiffyness wrote: |
| Glam Grimfire wrote: |
i keep seeing this and yaiba ninja gaiden z sitting on store shelves at walmart, for the ps3
i'm almost tempted to buy both of them just to see which one has the worst previous-generation port going on
i don't think the FOX engine is meant for ps3 hardware at all |
idk how it looks on PS4, but on PS3 the game is gorgeous. |
The only problem that I've had with it so far is the fact that it has to erase objects past a certain distance away from Snake. I can deal with that because it's not as though the objects aren't there, ultimately, but at least once I have been !'ed by a guard whose model was not yet rendered... and whose model I really wish had been rendered because knowing he was there sure would have informed my decision to cross the road in broad daylight.
>=|
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:04 pm |
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| Rei wrote: |
| I'm not some xenophobic American recoiling at other cultures; I think Kojima is a very bad storyteller and people look for ways to overpraise him. As you can see, inquiry was definitely my first response; not shaming. |
Perhaps you could make this more evident rather than posting evasive, passive-aggressive snark shots at something you appear to disagree with. I'm not the first person to fail to see whatever point you intended to make beneath layers of ill tone.
As far as the diatribe against Kojima goes, that's fine. It relates tangentially to my stance on his tendency to overexpress his ideas. It was interesting reading, and I'm sure that anyone who thinks that Kojima should be protected by the shroud of "cultural difference" would benefit from reading it.
Criticisms of the piece would be that you're accepting "culture difference" in Miyazaki because its contents are OK with your cultural perspective, while rejecting "cultural difference" when it runs counter to your central ideas, which, right now, have a bulldozing tone that's hard for me to take seriously. They're on a spectrum.
It's also problematic by leveling credit, criticism, praise, and condemnation at Kojima specifically. There's a whole team of writers and developers who have been with the series since their MSX2 days, and the tone of the series owes as much to their activity and input as it does to Kojima's. Accepting Kojima as the fountainhead of the studio weakens the argument because it buys into "Kojima" as an effectively representative symbol for a group of individuals more responsible collectively for ideas in the games, I think, than Kojima could be individually.
I've got no investment in protecting him or justifying the creative merit of his ideas. I can tell you what I find compelling and what I don't, but that's about all I'm going to defend.
And, of course, defending an idea in one context (finding the "laughing snake" such a strange image) does not imply tacit approval of the idea in all contexts (arguing, for example, that it would have been tasteful or add good meaning if it were actually included in the game).
To make a comparison on this point, I expressed many months ago that I'm happy to see that, with The Phantom Pain, the studio is finally going to stop developing Big Boss as a sympathetic hero tormented by The Boss's final mission. They're going to finally make him into a bad person, that they're going to stop walking on eggshells with the atmosphere and make it earnestly oppressive.
"Earnestly oppressive" does not need to mean the contents of Chico's tapes. Frankly, having the prisoners weep with gratitude as Big Boss extracts them conveys the severity of the situation enough. The torture tapes are great examples of overexpression compromising the work's overall effect. And even though I think that the "laughing snake" would have been a bad idea to introduce into the game's content, I'd put it on a spectrum of bad examples of overexpression, with the torture tapes being maybe among the worst examples we could have been provided.
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:50 pm |
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| Rei wrote: |
| This is kind of getting personal, Jay. |
If you want to take criticism of your work as personal, that's your decision. I'm not interacting with that.
| Kilroy wrote: |
| Adi, you're trotting out a lot of tired cliches without doing much real thought or engaging with the discussion. Instead of just giving broad descriptions of trends, practices, and attitudes in the gaming industry or general creative work, perhaps you could do a better job tying them to the discussion? |
I am also not going to read your mind to infer whatever you're referring to.
I can see exactly the direction this thread is going. I'm out.
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2014 5:25 am |
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| | BLUE | BLACK | PURPLE | wrote: |
| Sounds like it's about that "Mother Base mode" where you sorta facebook-game your way through a base building game and that base then exists in the console version(s). It's supposed to be similar to what you could do in Peace Walker (which I've never played and can't comment on, personally) |
Yeah, I mentioned this a bit earlier. It's a Metal Gear themed resource management sim. It's OK, though I don't have much experience in the genre more broadly to be able to say if it's a good entry. It's a very toned-back version of the Mother Base development you could perform in Peace Walker, mainly because it appears to serve mostly as a stand-alone game/app rather than one part of a larger whole that converts gains in the sim into potential changes in an action sequence.
I'm curious to see if it bears out any changes when The Phantom Pain finally comes out. Something that is neat about it: your gains and achievements in the console Ground Zeroes game translate into unlocked characters from across the MG Saga timeline who serve as combat generals. The fact that you can have, simultaneously, a team consisting of Solid Snake, Naked Snake, and Peace Walker era Snake suggests to me that this is just for fan entertainment.
It is interesting to see MGS1 era Solid Snake visually distinguished from MGS3's Naked Snake. They're roughly the same ages, with I think Solid Snake being a bit older in MGS1 than Naked Snake was in MGS3. I haven't checked the ever-changing canon to verify that though.
The visual comparison is neat since MGS4 established that Liquid and Solid weren't exact copies of Big Boss. I've wondered how to visualize that difference when the men were the same age rather than the most immediately available sources for comparison after the fact that Solid Snake doesn't look like Big Boss became evident when both men were old together at the end of MGS4. They kept the Solid Snake look on Big Boss for MGS3 (though not for the 3DS version, I think?) and Portable Ops, only changing the in-game face model with Peace Walker's release after MGS4.
EDIT: It's also neat to see a non-PS1 visualization of MGS1's Solid Snake outside of the creepy action-figure look of The Twin Snakes.
You can tell that this is Peace Walker era Snake and not Ground Zeroes era Snake because he still has his bandanna.
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Adilegian
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Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:42 pm |
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Some additional caps from the Mother Base sim. Here are some of the narrating images when you send dudes forth.
And here are some additional characters who serve as your generals.
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:05 am |
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Oh man. I need to S Rank some more of the Hard missions myself, specifically Jamais Vu, which has easily become my favorite of any of the missions period. I really dig the rough and loud version of the Snatcher theme that plays while Raiden is in the chopper at the start, though I can't find a track of it anywhere, OST or otherwise. And I love when what sounds like the 16-bit CD version of the theme overlays your first discovery of one of them.
One of the day's goals actually is S Ranking Jamais Vu. What's giving you trouble with the Deja Vu mission? I S Ranked both Normal and Hard (and beat their quizzes without looking anything up, booyah) fairly quickly, so maybe I can assist.
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:16 am |
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I do wish they'd done a parallel release of the Jamais Vu mission for Revengeance so Raiden could take his sword into combat.
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:11 pm |
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| allensmithee wrote: |
| Can you access the Snatcher mission on PS3 by some means? |
Yep! They released the console-specific content cross-platform. I think that Raiden's mission (Jemais Vu) came out a month or so ago.
EDIT: Beaten to the post.
Best place to S-Rank the final onslaught of Jemais Vu is the top of the watchtower near some industrial equipment, just a scant from the helipad itself. Speed is the key, I think, as I got seen during the final battle, had reflex mode turned on to play with the slow-mo magazine face-throw (I LOVE IT), so I lost points both to 2 Alerts and didn't get the No Reflex bonus. But I completed it in ~12+ minutes, so I'm pretty sure that's the winning factor.
Now I just need to figure out how to get 55,000 points on Jemais Vu (Hard) to get White Raiden in the Mother Base as a general.
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:05 am |
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| TXTSWORD wrote: |
http://www.siliconera.com/2014/06/08/metal-gear-solid-v-phantom-pain-e3-trailer/
This seems to be getting pulled down everywhere it's posted, but here's a new MGS V e3 trailer. |
I am tenuously on the edge of supposing that TPP might be the non-meta, non-eternally referential MGS that finally gets how to be a non-meta MGS game. (Peace Walker dragged and was forgettable, and Portable Ops moreso.)
I do like the back-to-back parallels of Miller whacking the kid with his cane to put him on his defense with the AR, then Big Boss apparently taunting Eli/Lil' Liquid into attacking him with the plastic chair.
Lots of brandishing knives in this one, too. I was wondering if the teeth/claws on Eli's necklace from the previous trailer were from hunting Jackals, as a narrative connection to Liquid's Rex-fight taunt that they don't hunt foxes in the Middle East (where he appears to be growing up) but that they hunt jackals using royal harriers.
Also, I guess bygones are bygones since Skullface and Big Boss seem pretty cozy ambling up to the Metal Gear hangar.
And I guess bygones are NOT bygones since we've now got cinematic shots of Big Boss snapping the plastic bag over Huey's face. Looks like Big Boss, Ocelot, and Miller are going to have a time of it.
That would actually be a really great/ethically horrible reversal of the series trope of rescuing the scientist. I'm wondering if there might be a mission where Big Boss goes to "rescue" Huey much as he did Sokolov (and like Solid Snake did Pettrovich and Hal, etc, etc) -- except, instead of rescuing him to to destroy Metal Gear, he's kidnapping him to get revenge in the form of torture for selling out Mother Base.
EDIT: Did they put a release date on this yet? After experiencing the foibles of the FOX Engine on the PS3, I'm going to dunk for a PS4 for this game.
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:07 am |
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| TXTSWORD wrote: |
Same on the PS4.
Does Snake really have any idea that Skullface is responsible for the attack on Motherbase in any way? Is it possible he just doesn't know and they become allied at some point? |
Well it certainly wouldn't be the first time an MGS main character allied with his enemies by mistake. The order of presentation's a little weird for that here, though, since the betrayals are usually made known to the player either at the same time as they're made to the character ("Did you like my glasses, brother?") or post game ("Yes... Mister President.") instead of right during the introductory chapter. Interested to see how they lead up to that alliance.
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Adilegian
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Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:20 pm |
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| Grant Dempsey wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
Also, I guess bygones are bygones since Skullface and Big Boss seem pretty cozy ambling up to the Metal Gear hangar.
And I guess bygones are NOT bygones since we've now got cinematic shots of Big Boss snapping the plastic bag over Huey's face. Looks like Big Boss, Ocelot, and Miller are going to have a time of it. |
It also looks to me like the four (five?) soldiers Big Boss shoots at the end of the trailer are Diamond Dogs. At least one of them seems to be wearing the same yellow ascot as the soldiers who are seen practice-fighting on Mother Base earlier in the trailer. They've got that same pre-TPP Kaz look about 'em. |
I thought the same thing. The last one that Big Boss shoots actually seems to have been completely oblivious to Big Boss as a mortal threat, or he was so focused on trying to get from Point A to Point B (trying to escape something?) that he was only focusing on keeping moving. It also wasn't particularly clear in what sense the three soldiers in front of Big Boss (whom he killed first) were a threat. They seemed either at a very loose gridlock, assuming they were pressing on him 3 v 1, or they were simply in close physical proximity to their Commanding Officer with no idea that he was about to put some bullets through their intestines -- though I seem to recall also that he had a knife involved. I'll have to go through the trailer again and check.
Assuming that Eli is Liquid as a boy, it's interesting to see that he had a child soldier upbringing much as Raiden had. It looks like Big Boss and Zero split the returns on the Les Enfents Terribles project (which the outro to GZ makes a specific point of indicating when the LET was abandoned rather than indicating both that and when it began). Big Boss got Liquid, and Zero/The Patriots got Solid.
Solid Snake mentioned in either MGS1 or MGS2 that he was "raised by a lot of different people," which accidentally makes a bit of sense given the comparatively high degree of organizational structure that The Patriots have in comparison to Big Boss, what with having their hands in a bunch of US government agencies. I do wonder if we're going to get echoes of Solid Snake's upbringing in TPP.
And, of course, I do like the joking thought that the "weapon to beat even Metal Gear" would actually be Solid Snake, what for the fact that he was born to serve as a weapon rather than a full person... and he has a good track record of beating Metal Gears, if you count the ones we know he's destroyed in MG1, MG2, and MGS... along with the numerous Metal Gear sabotage operations he's implied to have performed under Philanthropy's banner in between MGS1 and MGS2.
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| Adi mostly I just hope you write a thing about it because I can't keep all this Metal Gear canon in my head at one time any more. |
I'm sure I'll write something about it at some point!
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:41 am |
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| analogos wrote: |
| didn't really register to me as anything other than oh man big boss killing his own men until yall started talking about it but it seems pretty obvious now that they're hypnotized/zombified/ill somehow |
Yeah, it's kind of a more demure version of MGS4's "Activate it." Completely plausible with series precedents, too, such as MGS1's Mantis's mind control over the Genome soldiers to ensure a successful revolt (though with a lack of any difference in AI after killing Mantis, probably can only series-'splain that as the ones left alive didn't need it quite so much as the earlier guards) and also Gene's voice-mind control ability causing Snake's proto-MSF dudes to go nuts and start butchering each other all around Snake (RIP Johnny).
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:44 am |
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Visually, Big Boss holding those three soldiers at bay kind of reminds me of one particular moment during his cutscene non-lethal asskicking of the Ocelot Unit during Virtuous Mission.
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Adilegian
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Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:47 am |
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| TXTSWORD wrote: |
| Oh man some gameplay demo impression articles are coming out and something that they said about Motherbase falls in line with an idea my coworker and I were discussing. Okay so, we were thinking what if you have to infiltrate Mother Base - and it would end up being sort of like Metal Gear Zeke.... where you basically build your own final boss unknowingly. Well what if you build motherbase for defense against enemies, and are essentially building your own infiltration level. Well, apparently the news is that you have to build defenses on Motherbase to repel occasional attacks... sooooo??? |
Any indicators if this will cross over to the mobile device Mother Base management sim?
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:22 pm |
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I've been paying just enough attention to feel assured that the MGS personality wasn't going to get tossed out in TPP as it was in GZ. Beyond that, I'm hiding in a cave.
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:04 pm |
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| Ratoslov wrote: |
| TXTSWORD wrote: |
| I wonder if they'll make a metal gear remake where big boss isn't thwarted by a hair spray flamethrower. Except u just realized that even if they made a modern remake they'd still do that because throwback humor. |
There's a certain tragedy in Big Boss- the one-man army, a man who has saved the world from nuclear war with little more than a knife and a pistol twice, a man who personally recruited every man in his army by kicking their ass and talking to them afterwards, Jack the Giant-slayer, a living god of the battlefield, a modern Achilles- dying to some desperate amateur-hour bullshit like a hair-spray flamethrower. |
Pretty sure he was also mostly Snatcher parts by that point, too, IIRC.
It really highlights Solid Snake's desperation in context though. Not only was he JUST FIFTEEN MINUTES AGO completely on fire and throwing everything away except the clothes on his back (apparently flame retardant?) and TEN MINUTES ago fighting Big Boss's most capable lieutenant hand to hand in a mine field, he was just FIVE MINUTES ago throwing every healing item into pools of damn acid (while being chased by Snatcher Big Boss and being shot at) just to acquire the barest of materials to improvise a weapon.
I've got a piece of fan art of this that I actually like a lot. Will have to scrounge it up.
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:39 am |
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| analogos wrote: |
| also i don't really agree that GZ has a noteworthy absence of "MGS Personality", it's just limited in scope outright. |
Oh jesus I totally forgot about that magazine thing. The DOINGGGGGGG when the magazine makes contact is brilliant.
I need to do a run of my own. It's challenging because the magazine has to hit the dude in the face almost exactly during Reflex Mode or within half a second after Reflex Mode.
I guess "MGS Personality" condenses down to the cardboard box as an immediate signifier to me. That's not fair to the goofiness that's there, but it's the Gold Standard of "lol mgs."
But yeah, the Jemais Vu and Deja Vu missions on their own qualify as MGS goofball stuff, so the humor feels more... reserved, I guess.
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:08 pm |
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Other really good stuff to respond to up there but first....
| Rei wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| It really highlights Solid Snake's desperation in context though. Not only was he JUST FIFTEEN MINUTES AGO completely on fire and throwing everything away except the clothes on his back (apparently flame retardant?) and TEN MINUTES ago fighting Big Boss's most capable lieutenant hand to hand in a mine field, he was just FIVE MINUTES ago throwing every healing item into pools of damn acid (while being chased by Snatcher Big Boss and being shot at) just to acquire the barest of materials to improvise a weapon. |
Yeah, Snake had to be on the edge by then. Pretty sure the events of Metal Gear 2 gave Snake PTSD. In the Previous Missions sections of MGS1 and Twin Snakes there's a picture of Snake pushing forward Beretta-first while shedding manly tears. |
I really need to rip those images. I just wish I knew how many there were or how they're encoded on the CD-ROM.
And here's that piece of fanart I mentioned. I like the way space is broken up.
EDIT: Which explains how Solid Snake is so comfortable and holding this aloft. HE'S HAD PRACTICE WITH THE GENERAL SHAPE.
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:54 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| allensmithee wrote: |
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| X Rank is just how I played MGS3. |
I still kinda wish MGS3 had come with some kind of arcadey bonus mode about trying to kill as many enemies as you can within a single area during a continuous alert phase before getting killed. I would often do that just for fun. |
There you go. You invented the mode. You played it and it was there. |
God Bless America indeed, Smithee.
yes, it was called the building where i got the shotgun and it lasted FOR LIKE AN HOUR and it was solid as hell.
and it made the fight versus the sorrow into the best thing.
MGS3 bonus mode 4 lyfe. |
Man, this is like getting caught in the Tank Hangar in MGS1 after you get the SOCOM and once you have the Bandanna. The soldiers spawn just off screen (rather than from inside a room as in Twin Snakes) so they keep coming.
The Comm Tower ascent is kind of like this except you actually can obliterate everyone.
Also the Genome soldiers have hardcore sensory recovery. One stun grenade puts them on the ground for just a few seconds. I don't think it's mentioned very often, but the fact that the stars over a KO'ed enemies heads disappear the closer they are to waking up really changed the way you approach non-tranq, non-lethal strategies prior to CQC.
It fits with the general changes to the bosses' life meters, but giving regular grunts invisible "stamina" counters that you can only intuit based off the number of stars over their head was a pretty good way of revising that particular gameplay element for the followup.
Which brings me to another thought, which is that each installment of the MG series no longer feels like another sequel. There have simply been SO MANY of them, and each game (at least in concept if not in final execution) has tried to explore or expand upon some familiar elements of what came before to riff the core MGS elements anew.
I guess because of the way that each game amends the canon, each installment feels like the completion of a larger edifice (even though I know they're making it up as they go along) rather than stacking sequel atop sequel like I feel happens with other series, even the more familiar ones, such as Mario, Zelda, Castlevania, etc.
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Adilegian
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Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:38 pm |
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In further MGS fanart news, I like this.
Only gripe is that Raiden's M9 tranq gun icon is missing its suppressor. THAT THERE DON'T RUN OUT.
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:41 pm |
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| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| Must be an inside joke. You never get the M9 without a suppressor in that game, right? |
Yep. The suppressor is always attached right from the start. You could only attach suppressors for lethal weapons in MGS1 and MGS2, and you only got the ability to remove them (because they could degrade with use) in MGS3.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:26 pm |
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| Rei wrote: |
I read in a book (oh no) that even with a suppressor a nine-millimeter handgun, for instance, is still loud.
The writer tried to demonstrate how loud it still is by telling the reader that it's like picking up three phonebooks and then slamming them down as forcefully as you can on a hard floor. |
This is can be true under the right circumstances. It depends on context.
The first place to start would be blowback. A live round has two bits: the cartridge that holds the powder and the projectile that you intend to make go forward fast. When the hammer hits the backside of a live round, the powder combusts. Combustion splits that live round into its two parts, and each part is going in a different direction.
The projectile moves through the bore of the gun toward your target.
The cartridge gets kicked backward. This shoves the slide (top part of the handgun) backward. Little hooks grab the back of the cartridge and flip the cartridge out of a gap in the top of the slide.
Three things happen when the slide gets kicked back from the force of the combustion.
First, there is a little spring at the front of the gun on the bottom (not all models but the ones I've fired). When the cartridge pushes the slide back, the slide pulls back on that spring. Once the force of the cartridge is spent, the spring pushes the slide forward again.
Second, the slide pushes back the hammer so that you don't need to manually recock it to fire the next round.
Third, the next round is lifted up from the vertical magazine into the firing chamber.
Put all this together and you have POW POW POW POW POW and you run through your ammunition too fast.
That's the mechanical backend of the gun (literally). The suppressor interacts with the front end. Gas from the combustion fills the bore (the tube that the bullet goes through after you fire it) and mounts up in order to push the bullet out at a high velocity. Most bullets are supersonic. I think the only non supersonic rounds are .22 and .45 rounds. Supersonic means that they break the sound barrier. When you hear a POW from a gun, that's both the sound barrier being broken as well as the gas from the combustion escaping the front of the bore.
You screw the suppressor onto the front of a semiautomatic. The suppressor's internal cylinder (where the bullet flies through) is wider than the diameter of the bore of the gun, which means that the bullet won't scrape the side of the suppressor, so the suppressor won't affect your aim.
A suppressor reduces the noise from a live round in two ways. First, it diffuses the gas from the combustion that pushes the bullet forward. Second, if you're using a supersonic round (such as a 9mm), it still breaks the sound barrier, but (ideally) it breaks the sound barrier while it's INSIDE the suppressor.
When Snake's suppressors wear out in MGS3, I suspect it's because the physical force of breaking the sound barrier causes the suppressor's general shape to warp, making it ultimately useless. I'm less sure about that though.
There are some trade-offs here.
The suppressor will affect your accuracy over a long distance (say, 50 yards). If you're going to shoot a distant target with a handgun, you'll need to aim just a bit higher than your target in order to compensate for the falling arc of the projectile. Without a suppressor, the gas that propels the projectile continues to push it for a bit even after the bullet leaves the gun. When you diffuse the gas at the mouth of the bore, you take away that extra force. Even though you might still break the sound barrier, your diffusing the element that gives your projectile velocity. Slowed velocity means that it will reach the apex of its arc and begin to drop sooner.
Now add wind/environmental influences on the projectile. With a suppressor, those are going to affect your accuracy. A projectile moving at a slower velocity is easier to get pushed around by atmospheric elements. So, if you're shooting over a distance, you have to think a bit more about how you're going to aim beyond simply accommodating for the drop in the arc. It handles differently.
You can mitigate the consequences of the slower velocity by doing what you kind of are using a gun to avoid doing, which is getting closer to your target. Enter stealth. This is where the Metal Gear series' level designs make the use of suppressors more plausible. The levels in MGS1 and MGS3 are designed such that you are either indoors or reasonably close enough to your target so that any consequence of a slower velocity would be minimized.
MGS2 is more problematic in this sense because of the length of the connecting bridges and the environment around them. I would wager that each connecting bridge is at least 50 yards, yet you can snipe dudes with a suppressed SOCOM from across the entire level. In addition to that, you're out at sea, which means a LOT of wind interference. I kind of wish that they had gone for more realism with respect to the firearms on the connecting bridges... it would be cool to have these short linear segments where you have to sneak past targets because your guns are only effective at close range.
But back to the suppressor: the act of diffusing the combustion gas as well as the (possibly) contained breaking of the sound barrier are your main sources of noise. (I add "possibly" because the projectile could possibly break the sound barrier after it leaves the suppressor's chamber.)
You can mitigate the consequences of the noise from a suppressor by using it tactically. Find an environment that can absorb sound. Find a spot where there's lots of environmental sound so that, even if the report is louder than the environmental sound, it's harder to locate because the ears will continue to process the sounds of the environment, making it harder to remember where the report came from. Both crowds and areas with running water are good because so many different frequencies of sound are happening at once, thereby confusing the ears of anyone around. I would like to see an MGS game take some of these qualities into account at some point.
| shnozlak wrote: |
| Hand guns can get pretty quiet but bullets still make noise when moving through the air and the action slamming back with each shot and ejecting the cartridge is going to make a sharp noise. |
Yeah, and then there's this part. Blowback makes the gun's entire mechanism rattle, and that's a very definite sound. So, even if the silencer was made by wizards and made the gun mute, your sidearm is still going to rattle as it does its business.
The M9 tranquilizer gun is an interesting play on this. Otacon explains, in MGS2, that the tranquilizers are essentially propelled by gas rounds. A normal bullet accomplishes all the mechanical actions because the combustion creates the blowback effect, which makes the whole gun work semi-auto. The gas round isn't strong enough to snap the slide back. This is why Snake has to reset the slide manually after every shot. When Snake pulls the slide back, he uses his hand to do what the force of a normal bullet's combustion does on its own.
A few other things that are neat about the M9: the tranquilizer rounds appear to have the pouch containing the combustible gas attached to the dart itself. When firing a normal round, you've got the cartridge left over to flip out so you can get another round in. The M9 tranq darts carry the combustible pouch with them, which is why you don't see little plastic cartridges on the ground after Snake fires the darts, while you litter the ground with metal cartridges at the spot where you've been firing normal rounds. (At least this is what I recall. Could be wrong!)
So, when Snake manually pulls back the slide, the gun doesn't have to flip out a spent cartridge. It simply re-cocks the hammer and lifts a new tranquilizer round into the chamber.
The fact that the M9 tranq gun has a suppressor at all is ridiculous. Everything that I wrote about the suppressor's influence on a live round should probably be multiplied by ten with the tranquilizer rounds. First, any combustion too weak to push the slide back is going to already be quieter than even a suppressed round of live ammunition. Second, suppressors specifically diffuse gas as a huge part of making the shot quieter, so it would be taking away force from the already-weaker propulsion of the tranq round.
All of this put together, I would think, should make the gun nearly useless in a situation like Snake's fight against Olga, where you've got storm winds blowing all over the place, and where you've got to aim your shots accurately enough so that they can hit her from between shelves on the ship's storage deck.
So there I hope I ruined everything for you.
| Rei wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| Only gripe is that Raiden's M9 tranq gun icon is missing its suppressor. THAT THERE DON'T RUN OUT. |
Artist just recolored the SOCOM blue. Nice picture, tho'.
| Rei wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| I guess "MGS Personality" condenses down to the cardboard box as an immediate signifier to me. That's not fair to the goofiness that's there, but it's the Gold Standard of "lol mgs." |
http://archive.today/NUnEo |
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It is always disappointing to see how other people see something that I like. Not fourth-wall acknowledgment. Not taking advantage of unique aspects of hardware. Certainly not the melodramatic handwringing that's been used to build characters that are interesting and compelling despite (and in some cases because of) the near operatic degree of emotional hyperbole.
No, none of that. Chicks on posters.
Die world.
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Last edited by Adilegian on Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:36 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:37 am |
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That is pretty dang cool. The Glock 21 gen 4 takes .45 caliber rounds, which I think are one of the very few caliber rounds that are subsonic, so they're actually ideal for suppressor use because no breaking of the sound barrier.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:26 am |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| One of the things about the "silencers are louder than you think" canard - which isn't untrue - is that most people don't realize how loud guns actually are without silencers. |
I don't think I have a good idea of how loud guns are without silencers except the handful (lol pun) of rifles that I shot at my uncle's farm. Every sidearm I've fired has been in a range with either earplugs or those headphone looking things whose name escapes me.
| Kilroy wrote: |
The best handgun/silencer combination is a nagant revolver connected to an oilcan via adapter. Total cost of less than $200, or at least it would be if Nagants hadn't dried up. Here's a silenced nagant with a legit filter. An oil filter would have similar sound characteristics.
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And this is something special right here. Thanks.
I am interested to hear what the silenced sidearms would sound like in an environment that amplified rather than absorbed sound. Ambient noise is ideal, but I do wonder what the effect would be if Snake's silenced SOCOM echoed off every wall I was creeping against when I decided to pew pew pew.
Probable MGS answer: it was overrun by the background music. :P
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:56 am |
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| Rei wrote: |
Whoa.
I thought the revolver was misfiring and he was anticipating the recoil until I saw the tiny clouds of dirt. |
Yeah. I'm not good enough with a revolver to fire double action without my aim swaggering like a drunken panda. Props to him!
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:49 am |
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I only pine for a Mosin Nagant so I can destroy my shoulder with the first shot.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:42 pm |
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| Tulpa wrote: |
| shrugtheironteacup wrote: |
oh oh oh it also had the worst sights
just the worst
even for that style of sight
russia why did you hate your fighting persons so much |
because the weather would take care of any foes before any fighting person was even in combat range |
lol Napoleon
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:46 pm |
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| shrugtheironteacup wrote: |
oh oh oh it also had the worst sights
just the worst
even for that style of sight
russia why did you hate your fighting persons so much |
They just needed more capitalist competition, duh. If they'd gone that route, they'd have had an equivalent to Apple going into hip, streamlined firearm design once tablets are replaced by visual interfaces a-glow on contact lenses.
The iShot.
"To capitalism!"
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:08 pm |
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A million times yes.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:16 pm |
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| TXTSWORD wrote: |
I made this thing this morning (Still needs a little love around the sheep area)
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"Sheep has come to."
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:32 am |
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| Ronnoc wrote: |
| TXTSWORD wrote: |
| Need to remember not to try and enjoy metal gear and this forum simultaneously. Unsure how Adi doesn't lose his shit. |
He does tho |
Only on special occasions.
I don't know about the change-over between gun guys, but I remember from Kojima's blog that they went all-out on (the appropriately named) Guns of the Patriots. I also remember Kojima hinting that he had a personal favorite that he didn't know if they would be able to get into the game. Turns out this was the high powered rifle that Johnny bought off Drebin in the last act of the game, which he somehow managed to get on board Outer Haven after thunking into the side of the hull and falling into the ocean. Maybe he has inventory space magic like Snake. Anyway, the fact that there was doubt expressed in the blog over whether or not they could get the gun in the game sounds a lot more like a licensing matter than a matter of the PS3's tech being able to support a shoulder cannon.
It sounds like it's a question of representation over reference. I imagine that Capcom could call Jill's handgun a Beretta in RE1 with little problem because the gun is a chunk of maybe 10 polygons that you can call whatever you want because it doesn't especially look like any handgun versus any other. I can also see there being a licensing concern if, with better hardware, a developer is harder pressed to represent the brand because now the tech can represent the sidearm with greater fidelity.
I do enjoy how detailed the games get with their descriptions of the technology used in the games, though, even if it's a theoretical-in-real-life-and-somehow-real-in-the-game detail like Fortune's railgun, which at the time the game was made (if I remember aright) was unfeasible as a personal arm because (1) the electric discharge would kill you if you used it as Fortune did and (2) personal sized railguns tended to melt their ammunition before actually making it into a projectile. I don't know what the tech looks like now.
I think they pushed the whole feasible-maybe-but-lets-cool-it-up boundaries most conspicuously with Snake Eater most in terms of using tech that was still theoretical at the time, such as the flying platforms, and that's mainly conspicuous because we have historical reference points regarding what was developed into usable tech due to the game's setting, whereas there's a greater sense of "what if" levity regarding the Solid Snake games since those technically took place in the future time of whatever year they were released. I'm pretty sure that explaining away those tech differences between game fiction and historical usage gave Sigint about a million more lines of dialogue and greater relevance to the game's presentation keeping in step with the series.
Anyway, I hadn't paid attention much to the guns in GZ or in the gameplay trailer of TPP. The very presence of the iDroid in-game already dissolves the series's usual pretense to tech-fidelity to the point of explanation. I'm not even sure what the problems with the guns in the gameplay trailer are. I'll have to go back and check.
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:48 am |
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| shrugtheironteacup wrote: |
but imfdb's sea of gunbonners
what will satisfy them now? |
T-Twelve shots? This time I've got twelve shots?
I am hoping for some ricochet magic in TPP. I don't recall a follow up to the SAA in MGS4, except in a very, very general sense with Ocelot's hand rifle which has to be reloaded manually after each shot, keeping in step with his whole "I love to reload during battle" sexiness.
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:59 am |
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| shrugtheironteacup wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The guards at the Cuban prison camp are armed with "AM-69's". It is part of the fictional firearm series unique to this game which includes the "AM-69", "AM-69 AAS", and The AM MRS-4". They utilize features of the FN FAL such as the long front hand guard, Daewoo K2, and the SAR 80 to which they most closely resemble. This is a highly unusual choice, as the SAR 80 assault rifle is not used at all in America and the prison camp is not only American, but guarded by United States Marines. |
I guess they're keeping themselves busy. |
Wow!
While I do enjoy that level of speculation, it seems simplest to point to Skullface's private guard's association with the Marines on base as a source of specialized technology. If I'm remembering the "That ain't no jarhead bird" line and context aright, which you hear by zooming in with the binocs-plus-durectional-mike at the gate guards right at the start of GZ, the Marines on base didn't recognize the tech being used by Skullface's phalanx.
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:01 am |
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Jamais Vu is canon. *hides*
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Adilegian
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:51 pm |
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Looking through the MGS Graphic Novel (which I received as a gift from SB's finest, dongle), I'm recalling a question that I had about TPP's development of Outer Heaven: where's Roy Campbell?
Campbell's an interesting addition to the mix, particularly since he was introduced to Big Boss back in Portable Ops.
According to current canon, both he and Miller served with FOXHOUND at the same time, though Miller appears not to have been support during Metal Gear 1. Among the mid-series (timeline wise, not sequel-wise) characters, I'm interested to see that they chose Miller as the comrade for Big Boss to go to hell with in TPP. Given this affiliation, there's something sly about the timing of certain characters' appearance within FOXHOUND as an organization.
In Metal Gear 1, Big Boss is CO of FOXHOUND. Presumably, guessing off what canon looks like, his use of Solid Snake during this operation could be both an attempt to (1) create the appearance of compliance with Zero's developing Patriots organization by standing against the Outer Heaven organization from which, I guess, he would have created the appearance of defecting... and to (2) dispose of Solid Snake as the "unwanted son" who was raised and trained by the Patriots as an organization. (Big Boss got Liquid, and it's evident from the trailers why Liquid hates Big Boss. Solid Snake is presumably elsewhere, being raised "by a lot of different people," as he notes at some point in either MGS1 or MGS2, I don't recall which.)
So Solid Snake beats Big Boss in armed combat in Metal Gear 1. Big Boss's dual loyalties are exposed, and it's evident that he and Zero are on opposite sides of the same power struggle. Enter Miller and Campbell to FOXHOUND. Both have strange overlaps in their relationship to Big Boss, since each has been key to Big Boss's building of private armies. The FOXHOUND unit that Big Boss develops with Campbell in Portable Ops is clearly the prototype for the later FOXHOUND Unit in which Solid Snake serves. Once Big Boss gets the ... cash donation ... from Gene in Portable Ops, he can start funding a serious private army. Campbell goes his own way to continue his military career, and Big Boss has Gene's former "Army's Heaven" bankroll that he uses to start up MSF.
Enter Miller. After becoming loyal to (and apparently falling in love with) Big Boss, he takes over Campbell's former role as base contact and tactical coordinator. The way that they build MSF is more sophisticated than how Big Boss got his band of mercenaries with Campbell -- no more "back of the truck" conversions in lieu of Fultoning soldiers to Mother Base -- but the role is essentially the same. Given the fact that Miller and Big Boss "go even further" after being "sent to hell," there's now a kind of parallel between the fact that Miller shows up serving under FOXHOUND after Big Boss served as CO, implying that either Miller has defected from Big Boss or that he, as Big Boss had in Metal Gear 1, is feigning defection as a double agent, which is completely plausible given his post-credits phone call in Peace Walker.
So you've got the two dudes who helped Big Boss build his mercenary army side by side, in the same unit, with the difference being that one of them (Campbell) seems to have stepped into the role as a promotion in his extant, clean military career whereas Miller appears in an advisory capacity after having (presumably, because of his affiliation with Big Boss) been a thorn in the Patriots' side.
One of the things that, from a long-view plot perspective, I think is neat about TPP is the possibilities it opens up to complicate the loyalty relationships that were very simple and two-dimensional when Metal Gear 1 and Metal Gear 2 were released. I do like to see the MGS series own its byzantine structure of character relationships.
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Adilegian
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:00 am |
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| Texican Rude wrote: |
I thought at this point they have just disregarded Portable Ops as "canon."
All games should put "canon" in an actual canon and just concentrate on a good story. |
Yeaaaaaaaaah that's what's weird about it. The details don't surface at any point explicitly, but there's some implied action that brought Big Boss from Point A (end of MGS3) to Point B (start of Peace Walker), so Gene and the Army's Heaven fiasco and meeting up with Campbell don't ever get explicitly mentioned and Big Boss discovering Raikov and Sokolov alive and for some reason both in Central America, but there's a nice vague shape connecting the two games that Portable Ops very loosely fills.
The premise of Portable Ops is sound enough as a way of getting Big Boss in Central America. Sure, OK, half of the Philosopher's Legacy wasn't on the microfiche, and the US thinks that Big Boss knows where it is, so they kidnap and haul him down to Central America. So there's how they start stretching the "big picture" plot from the end of MGS3 forward somewhere. And then, sure, OK, Big Boss winds up with enough money to start up a mercenary company as an implied prelude to Peace Walker. That stretches the beginning of Peace Walker back somewhere.
Portable Ops has the general "fill in the blank" role that makes that story jump sensical, and I get the feeling that they're retaining those as general movements of the story between MGS3 and Peace Walker without acknowledging the concrete events.
It's silly but effective for the draw of the series that, in the world of Metal Gear, all of the world movements in the last half of the 20th century come down to the disputes between two dudes and their loose network of personal and professional associates. I don't come back for meaningful themes or even necessarily good storytelling; I come back for the characters. Still, even in the context of that "ten people arguing is responsible for all history from ~1960 forward" aspect of the series, Portable Ops stretches the premise super thin with Big Boss getting in touch with Paramedic, EVA, and Sigint... and then discovering Sokolov alive as an informant still working on death machines... and then discovering Raikov half on the lam after Groznyj Grad was leveled... and on and on.
I'm not sure that the entirety of Portable Ops' specifics is being jettisoned though. There were a handful of ninja-like soldiers who were dressed in a cryogenic get-up with totally blanched skin, which looks pretty clearly like a recall of Python, the only original character in Portable Ops that can be plausibly said to have survived the events of the game. I'm pretty sure all the other characters were either new and killed -- or were old and involved and then let float away. Anyway, I'm curious to see how that actually plays out -- whether it's a return of Python as a character or simply a hallucination as part of the "Those Who Don't Exist" sequence.
Anyway yeah date with Miller is canon.
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Last edited by Adilegian on Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:11 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:05 am |
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| Rei wrote: |
Oh, almost forgot:
| Adilegian wrote: |
| (Big Boss got Liquid, and it's evident from the trailers why Liquid hates Big Boss. Solid Snake is presumably elsewhere, being raised "by a lot of different people," as he notes at some point in either MGS1 or MGS2, I don't recall which.) |
Gotcha covered, Diamond Dog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n67DBTcCtHI#t=6m46s |
There we go. It kind of makes sense that someone with such a serious emotional maladjustment to personal relationships would have been raised as part of an experiment by a lot of people in succession. That plus PTSD, yep, which I kind of hate is glossed over into "you're a sad, lonely man."
THANKS MERYL KILLED MY DAD TWICE AND BEST FRIEND IN A PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY (BUT I GUESS HE'S NOT DEAD JUST MADE TO SUFFER AFTER I PERSONALLY BROKE HIS BODY AND HIS SPIRIT) GLAD YOU'RE THE SYMPATHETIC TYPE would have been a merited response, I feel.
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