[mauve]

patch is up, you can access the entrance to the new area from the primal bonfire behind the rotten.

all scimitars now have first frame parry ha ha. also someone hit the wrong number and red iron twinblade now does absolutely hilarious amounts of damage

people already hackin' dlc items into the game too so expect to see a full list sometime soon...

edit: holy greatsword nerf: no more chain off dashing attack. rip
edit edit: compilation of chain nerfs, looks like my friend the battle axe lost its combo too. welp
edit edit edit: day -4 dlc spoilers
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twit

[CubaLibre]

[Oh God Spiders No]

Yea, that's a great post. The verticality thing is so huge, I can't believe I didn't notice it immediately - much less at all - but now it seems so obvious.
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[UtilityFrog]

[UtilityFrog]

There's a youtube Let's Player (or whatever you want to call it) named Kay who's done a completely blind, spoiler free playthrough of DS1 and DS2, and is currently in the middle of a playthrough of Demon's Souls. She did the Dark Souls playthrough mostly offline with the biggest impact on the playthrough being the absence of player messages. She did the Dark Souls 2 playthrough online and did some PvP, but still refrained from reading most player messages. I don't know if she's online in the Demon's Souls playthrough, but the amusing thing there is that she's playing the Hong Kong translation of the game which is completely wacked.

The thing that makes Kay's playthroughs interesting is that she's a very cautious and methodical player who investigates everything. Every item description, every interesting looking statue and wall texture, everything. She put together much of the lore of Dark Souls without any outside help, including things like the status of each member of Gwyn's family (she twigged to the potential falseness of Gwynevere in Anor Londo based purely on item descriptions). She also discovered how to access the DLC by herself.

The methodical and blind nature of her playthroughs does a good job illustrating the successes and failures of the design of each game. She spent probably at least an hour trying to get into the boarded up passage in the Lower Burg in DS1 (I'm not necessarily saying that that particular instance is a failure of design, but it sure looks like you should be able to get in there). She never figured out the "torch the windmill" puzzle in Earthen Peak in DS2 and eventually defeated Mytha with the poison still in the room (someone spoiled the solution to her in the comments after she spent much time trying to figure it out but she still didn't use it). She immediately twigged to the absurdity of the Earthen Peak -> Iron Keep transition.

The Dark Souls playthrough is my favorite because it shows Kay starting out as a complete noob and very quickly improving. I'm pretty sure she kills all of the DLC bosses within 4 or 5 tries.

They're long playthroughs, but I recommend them to anyone wanting to see a completely un-spoilered run through the games by a careful and intelligent player.

[Iacus]

[mauve]

I think the verticality stuff was mentioned very early on in single player impressions, actually. The game's much more of a sprawling mess than it is an interconnected world. I definitely feel like traveling is something of an endurance battle, where I'm going much further away than in DS1. That being said the level design in general is WAY TOO FLAT. C'mon Doom levels were more vertical than most areas in this game and you couldn't even look up and down in that game! They also had more branching/looping paths; DS2 level design is very 'one straight line with a few one-way branches to loot that wrap back to around where you came in' which is incredibly boring. No area in the game has anything on Sen's.

Iacus: Denial is Second Chance all over again, works exactly the same, except it dumps you at 1HP afterwards. It's yet another buff for people to stack at the start of a fight, hooray.

Something's up with the matchmaking, I spent some time invading and in the arena today and I didn't even run into one overleveled havel. They made up 50% of my opponents at least in the past, so maybe something was done.

Combo nerf is a godsend. Don't even care that I don't have dash attack anymore (though it changes my build a bit), switched my battle axe for a bandit axe and every fight has felt so much more fair and balanced. In a good way.
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twit

[apfEID]

[Guillotine]

woah is there some hard data on this? I pretty much refused to play multiplayer once i discovered havels existed but if this is true I'm certainly up for it.

[boojiboy7]

[UtilityFrog]

[boojiboy7]

Ah ok, that makes more sense. Like I was imaginging somehow a world where the audience somehow could watch a playthrough and not be spoilered and that was weird in my head.

[misadventurous]

[Iacus]

So, after a full playthrough of the game and about 1/10th into my second character, I learned that there are actually hidden walls in this game and the messages saying so weren't a bunch of lying bastards trying to troll!

Contrary to what happens in Dark Souls 1, and continues happening with the illusory walls revealed by the Pharros' lockstones, you don't have to hit the hidden doorways with your weapon, just press the interact button in front of them.

It took me seeing this in a youtube video to know about it...
Pretty bad mixed signaling there, especially if you are playing this sequel game with knowledge from the previous games in the series!
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Guayaba 2600

[Victor]

I didn't figure it out till a phantom led me to a hidden shield by going up to a wall and PS3-MSG'ing me "SPAM X". Took me a few seconds to figure out what he/she even meant. They were a trooper and stuck with me and knowledge was passed on and yadda yadda yadda emergent gameplay narrative. Real good game.

[Talbain]

So is a proper sense of verticality what makes an environment well-constructed for a 3D action game? I'm not saying there aren't other factors, just that everyone here seems to be in agreement on that. I like to think that Demon's Souls, despite being pretty linear (not saying there isn't verticality, as with the Tower of Latria) and flat, still has a more interesting world, despite lacking a consistency of space. I think Dark Souls 2 levels, on the whole, just aren't as well designed as the first two.

Blighttown and The Gutter were probably my two favorite areas mechanically, if only because it's hard to see and they're generally frustrating to figure out (the swamp in Demon's Souls isn't as interesting as either, I think, aside from Astraea). Sen's Fortress and Anor Londo were mostly impressive in scale to me. Dragon Aerie has a nice feeling of scale and is still my favorite area, but it's rather stale as a place to fight enemies in, especially since the castle isn't anything more than a castle visibly.

I feel like during these discussions it's difficult to keep in mind that the mechanics of Dark Souls 2 seem better, yet the level design seems worse, and the level design seems to dictate quality. And that even from such design it's (mostly?) agreed that any Souls game is still better than almost any other 3D action game.

Lastly, yeah, the Pharros' Lockstone thing still feels counter-intuitive.
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[mauve]

Verticality is important in establishing a sense of place, yeah.

And yeah I don't like the lockstone mechanic at all. I'm done feeding tofu to faces in the wall.
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twit

[CubaLibre]

[Talbain]

When you say whole areas do you mean the individual levels themselves? Because near as I can tell, most areas have verticality, but it's self-contained. Sen's Fortress is a vertical space but it's still an area unto itself, largely disconnected from other areas in the world. The flat sections of Dark Souls also seem to sprawl outward in order to create a sense of space that disconnects the areas but gives them a sense of space horizontally, creating vertical space largely in dungeon/castle areas. I get the sense that the game's intent is to try and be more like Demon's, but opts for spreading out the world in a spoke-like fashion which makes everything feel linearly connected, rather than having some areas which wrap around on themselves.

I feel like what was probably an initial decision to allow warping is probably what made the decision for the level design in Dark Souls 2. I agree that the areas feel largely disconnected from one another, but I'm not really sure that it's vertical issues that compromise the game's level design nearly so much as the connection of impossible spaces, which would have been largely mitigated by an archstone-like level connection system. Point A -> Point B becomes less problematic if they are treated as individual levels. Still, the level design in many of the areas is just bland and repetitive, which I would say compromises it far more than any sense of vertical space.
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[CubaLibre]

I... think we're agreeing? I can't tell where you're talking about Dark 1 or 2 or both. The "spoke" design is clearly visible in Dark 2 and is the non-desireable thing we're talking about. The vertical design of Dark 1 is, I would have thought, equally obvious: ascending Burg > Parish > Sen's > Anor Londo and descending Burg > Lower Burg > Depths > Blighttown > Swamp > Demon Ruins > Lost Izalith. Not to mention all the paths that shoot off or reconnect different vertical "levels" in new ways (like Darkroot and the Havel tower making a jump from Parish to Lower Burg/Depths) to make the map more robust.
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Let's Play, starring me.

[Talbain]

[diplo]

I'm having a tough time following the wording in that post.

[Talbain]

Yeah, unfortunately, it's not a terribly easy thing for me to describe. It has a lot to do with the feeling of a vertical space versus actual vertical space.
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[misadventurous]

hmm, i like sens/anor londo just for lore reasons. you can see the original entrance all bricked up at the other end of the golems arena, and youre lifted up into the parts of the city right where the gods live. i like the tense moment where the demons grab you and then you get to see the city laid out before you while glorious music plays! it hits home the fact that you earned the right to be among the gods with your strength & perseverance.

not to mention, you can see anor londo's walls looming above everything from the moment you arrive in lordran, so theres always a sense that its up there, waiting, but out of reach.

[Talbain]

[diplo]

At its most basic, it's a convenient riff on the transition between 3-1 and 3-2 in Demon's, which was similarly without an explanation as to why the gargoyles didn't kill you. That aside, I'm not sure why the gods would want to descend from Anor Londo, or have anyone come up, although it is possible (unless I've missed some detail) that the bricked up portal misadventurous mentioned led there.

[UtilityFrog]

CubaLibre has understood my point on verticality perfectly. I wasn't really talking about vertical space within levels but the use of vertical space between levels. Everything from Sens down to Lost Izalith (and including Ash Lake, and the Catacombs/TOTG and the Darkroot areas) is spatially connected. In a very tangible sense Upper Berg is above Lower Berg is above the Depths is above Blightown and so on. Anor Londo is spatially disconnected from the rest of the game (excluding the Archives) but the bricked up door at the top of Sens gives a clear suggestion that this was not always the case.

Use of a third dimension in level design allows one more axis along which connections between levels can be made. The Undead Parish is adjacent to Sens and the Upper Burg while at the same time being above Firelink Shrine and Darkroot Garden.

As for the Pharros Lockstones, I don't mind them that much as at least they're mechanically straightforward, but they are pretty boring. There's no decision to be made when you find one, you either stick a stone in if you have one or if not you make a note to come back when you do.

It's the hidden doors that I hate. Not because you press Interact to open them instead of hit them, that really doesn't make much difference, but because, at least as far as I can tell, there's absolutely no visual/audio indication that they exist. You're completely reliant on player messages or tapping X over every wall of the game to find them. In DS1 there was always some clue that a hidden door was present, as well as there being far fewer hidden doors overall.

As for the gargoyles that carry you to Anor Londo I just figure they're (spoiling just in case) minions or projections of Gwyndolin, who wants you up in Anor Londo now that you've proven yourself in Sens.

[mauve]

i think both within and between are important? there's making a cohesive world and then there's making interesting levels in the first place.

hearing that the majula chest has a black murakumo in it right now. go make characters and get it.

also the dlc comes out today? apparently already out on steam/360 and will be on ps3 later?
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twit

[Talbain]

[analogos]

all of this is a very large contributor to why i find sentiments to the effect of "oh yeah DkS1 starts off strong but steadily tapers off from there, steeply declining in 'Quality™' in the (As We All Know And Agree Is Terrible) lategame" mostly baffling. DkS1 starts off feeling convincingly knotted but still relatively comprehensible in scope, then gradually pushes you into increasingly unknowable depths and heights in a powerfully tangible way. it seems like i'm apparently supposed to register lost izalith/demon ruins' wide, unimpeded spaces filled with enemies as obviously necessarily boring and offensive on principle. potential gripes about the specificity of enemy placement and complexity of terrain aside, i find instead the area to be compelling to me specifically by the contrast created by those design choices, what that says about both the area itself and what came before it. it toys with the expectations of what could exist deeper than the place deeper than blighttown. the game is actively engaging my imaginative relationship with space at all times.

it's why the most excited i ever got in DkS2 was entering the Black Gulch for the first time, and why it being a room and a half's worth of exploration of that concept was subsequently the most disappointing thing.

[diplo]

Speaking of the Black Gulch, is anyone bothering with the DLC?

[Bingle]

The level design in the DLC amusingly enough actually has way more verticality, shortcuts, and setpieces than the rest of the game. It's probably the most DKS1 style level in the game by far.

Most of the issues from DKS2 design philosophy still applies to it though, especially in regards to bosses and enemy design.

Sad but true fact: the DLC area has more shortcuts than the rest of the game.
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[Felix]

So it's how much money for Painted World Zwei?

[mauve]

$10/each or $25 for a season pass if you are not on PSN.

Moneybags required ahead.
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twit

[a pair of gators]

made a good dent in the DLC tonight. i'm enjoying the more Demon's/Dark1-style level design & some of the new enemy ideas. it's also (so far) put me in more hilariously unfair situations than the rest of the game.

that said, everyone that complained about Iron Keep being "videogamey" is probably going to fuss about this entire underground complex being a big puzzlebox. i think it's neat, but i also seem to be one of the few that liked the Iron Keep. so!

[mauve]

i didn't get the dlc but i put my sign down at the entryway and got summoned a couple times

the actual area is ridiculously short and not really that hard, just a lot of stuff to mow down. they drop dlc items even for summons, so get hype? (picked up sanctum mace and dried fingers, somehow.) that 'boss fight' afterwards is comical and i think i'd rather try soloing it, though i have a feeling it would be very tedious to do that way...

part of the problem with ds1's endgame is it doesn't really match how powerful the character can be around that time. by that point, you're kitted out, you have most every skill you will want and most equipment. Enemies are mostly the same and there's not much variance between "this one i rush down," "this one i block until it dies from it", and "this one is so not worth the effort" outside of very few areas, so the level design is largely irrelevant. i think lost izalith _looks_ cool, but it's not a very fun area to traverse, really. and after the much earlier areas which do a fantastic job of mixing it up it really does feel like it bogs down a lot more.
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twit

[Bingle]

The area that non-DLC players get summoned to is actually an optional area largely disconnected from the rest of the area. It's also the worst part of the DLC.

So, huh.
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[mauve]

oh yeah, i tweeted this yesterday but it might be interesting to people here

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24063467 investigations on monastery scimitar parry

currently, it's 1f-9f, at 30fps. So that's a 300ms parry window that's instant.

also according to it: other scimitars are 4f-9f, parrying dagger is 6f-9f, target shield is 7f-13f.

wondering what my trustworthy llewelyn shield is but i'm hitting parries pretty often these days... people with better reactions than me might be better off with an offhand scimitar.

going to try no-death runs with the murakumo while it lasts, because why not

[diplo]

If we're in the business of linking DS2's places to ones in the original, could Shulva be a form of Lost Izalith? I only ask because there's some connection between it and the lowest part, or one of the lowest parts, of Drangleic, it has similarly styled architecture (to me this seems like the most attractive and weakest parallel, however; architecture doesn't change shape, as in intended design, and style just because of time), and there are bipedal dragon-like things that jump around near the base.

Those undead knights sure do have a billion poise, don't they? Suppose the devs just wanted to drive home that this is Epic Hardcore Most Hardest game ever. It's not bothersome that there are enemies that are tough to stagger -- just, why did they have to be bumbo zombie knights.

Level design does do some interesting things, some of it passively, like the halls that are three feet wide with walls that rise up into darkness. The architecture is tiered and nooky, although, like someone else said I think, it has some of the videogameyness of the Iron Keep: you hit glowing rods to raise and lower towers or extend platforms to get around or provide cover (and I guess in one case actually hurt enemies?). It also suffers from that persistent sense in much of the rest of the normal game of having a lesser environmental narrative; a lot of the interiors are boxes with corners for enemies to hide in. Some of them have specifically integrated holes in the floor/ceiling, putting them in an unresolved area of purpose and nonpurpose. Later on there's a semblance of puzzle solving in the slightest sense.

Returning to this after months or not touching it has pretty well solidified my distaste for the controls/physics. Again, it's cool that they decided to slow stuff down for the sake of refreshing the flow of combat, but there's a gap between function and enjoyability here. It blows my mind that people can happily do PvP. Half of the time it seem as though the whole world is about to collapse into itself, or I'm about fall through the ground into a void, just because of how it feels to move, and a smaller fraction of the time my attacks pass right through objects in front of me. Also god damn these sound bugs. I'm flipping the heck out by imagining ambushes because my character makes the "landed from a fall" sound effect sometimes on stairs or because there's an additional "readying arrow" sound when I'm readying an arrow. Also I swear one of my deaths came from rolling into a pit while going into arrow view.

[Felix]

Bloodborne better be really good because otherwise I still don't see a single good thing that came from them rewriting the engine since DkS1

[mauve]

DS2's physics actually feel considerably better/meatier for me. The real hump to get over is the new way of managing stamina, since it's much different than in previous games. You actually move slightly faster but you're not sprinting everywhere all the time anymore. Attacks are definitely overall faster and it feels great.

that being said there's some wonky stuff going on like how ridiculous anything with knockback is now.
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twit