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Drem
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: The Planet Bookshelves
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 Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:31 pm |
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I like the look of Rising Thunder (Tetsujin 28 better be top tier) but the characters could do with some better coloring. The characters are too gray. I hope I get into the Alpha so I can try it out early- I like seeing fighting games try new things.
I mostly only caught Sunday but the EVO finals were fantastic as usual. I had it running in my family's living room and even my parents were enjoying it. The last three matches of SF were absolutely phenomenal. Clear, deliberate neutral is always a joy to watch. I hope I can go to EVO for the first time next year. |
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tiburon
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:17 pm |
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great evo, plup has been my dude since last year (dat samus) so to see him make top 4 is huuuuge
honestly, as someone who never gave enough of a fuck about playing fighting games to get over the execution barrier, this is super interesting to me - instant uninformed reaction from my circle of e-friends is "lol trash game" but i'm reserving judgment.
as far as fighting games that don't have that huge execution barrier to 'start making important decisions', i think you have to look at smash as one of the main ones. obviously there are execution things like short hops, SHL, L-canceling etc, but to play the game against other noobs and make meaningful decisions, none of the moves are closed off to you. so something like this has already succeeded in the past.
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| On that train of thought, are there any good write ups on why fightman inputs are the way they are other than being execution barriers for 'useful' moves? I kind of have a feeling of why but no able to properly articulate it to be most understandable. |
I'm assuming lack of buttons on the arcade cabinets
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ArOne
Joined: 16 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:39 pm |
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I'm thinking more along the lines of mechanical reasons but the amount of buttons is definitely a factor. I'm thinking that just a button and direction would lead to some input mistakes when involving moments where character states of left or right are switching constantly could confuse the input reader the way stages and movement are done in most games. I'm guessing the direction inputs act as a buffer of sorts so the reader can interpret a players desired action as a state change occurs like those times you do a SRK as someone gets on your other side the DP autocorrects the direction despite the input being in the opposite direction. I think I remember mauve touching on this in a post or random tweet once so I could be off base and am willing to be corrected.
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dementia
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:33 pm |
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| Re: Grayness of RT characters; as a F2P title, wouldn't that be a calculated move to sell cosmetic DLC? |
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Lasakon
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Oregon Trail
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:02 am |
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rising thunder is a service
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:17 am |
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| ArOne wrote: |
| On that train of thought, are there any good write ups on why fightman inputs are the way they are other than being execution barriers for 'useful' moves? I kind of have a feeling of why but no able to properly articulate it to be most understandable. |
Well, that is basically how it started. It's part of why in the original SF2, there's a slight chance that ANY button press will randomly cause a special move to come out. But since then, functions of the motions themselves have been used as part of move design: dragon punches require letting go of back, so using them is risky even just from a input point of view, Guile can charge fireballs while defending/retreating, etc. Dunno if anyone's written something LONG-FORM about that.
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:21 am |
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| Services exist primarily to cause dissatisfaction. |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:04 am |
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| ArOne wrote: |
| I'm thinking more along the lines of mechanical reasons but the amount of buttons is definitely a factor. I'm thinking that just a button and direction would lead to some input mistakes when involving moments where character states of left or right are switching constantly could confuse the input reader the way stages and movement are done in most games. I'm guessing the direction inputs act as a buffer of sorts so the reader can interpret a players desired action as a state change occurs like those times you do a SRK as someone gets on your other side the DP autocorrects the direction despite the input being in the opposite direction. I think I remember mauve touching on this in a post or random tweet once so I could be off base and am willing to be corrected. |
I actually think this would be a really interesting thing to do in a fighting game, to allow someone to do a DP in the direction they want to do the DP, as a form of counter to cross ups. But I think debating input direction is so deeply ingrained into modern fighting games to the extent that having such universal inputs is probably impossible. It would also make special movements distinct in a way other than them being made to execute "more powerful" moves, and be considerably more useful against advanced play. Would maybe be difficult to program, as it goes against the way the game would normally handle inputs (unless it were worked around by one being considered a DP and the other being considered a reverse DP, I suppose).
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seven
Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Location: ASU
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:06 am |
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i know i'm late to this but man, gamerbee vs. intrustion has to be one of my favorite matches of all time.
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Victor
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:41 am |
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| BotageL wrote: |
| ArOne wrote: |
| On that train of thought, are there any good write ups on why fightman inputs are the way they are other than being execution barriers for 'useful' moves? I kind of have a feeling of why but no able to properly articulate it to be most understandable. |
Well, that is basically how it started. It's part of why in the original SF2, there's a slight chance that ANY button press will randomly cause a special move to come out. But since then, functions of the motions themselves have been used as part of move design: dragon punches require letting go of back, so using them is risky even just from a input point of view, Guile can charge fireballs while defending/retreating, etc. Dunno if anyone's written something LONG-FORM about that. |
The games are designed around being physically difficult to play, with execution technique as a primary differentiator in player skill. This could change and still keep basically all of the pure flowchart strategy intact but it wouldn't be the same game.
I think subtle change would be good (huge input leniency, why can't wake ups be prebuffered at any time during knockdowns?, or let's get crazy: combo autoblock and reversals buffered during blockstun?) especially in the age of online play defining the experience for most players. |
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:46 pm |
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I like SF-style inputs for purely selfish reasons (they became muscle memory 15 years ago and they feel good), but I'm totally okay with larger buffers and easier windows for most things. My response to complaints about "big, easy reversal windows" in SF4 is "so, bait it!"
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:07 pm |
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| seven wrote: |
| i know i'm late to this but man, gamerbee vs. intrustion has to be one of my favorite matches of all time. |
That relentlessly scummy Elena was so, so good. |
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seven
Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Location: ASU
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:23 pm |
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| schroeder wrote: |
| seven wrote: |
| i know i'm late to this but man, gamerbee vs. intrustion has to be one of my favorite matches of all time. |
That relentlessly scummy Elena was so, so good. |
the arc there is amazing:
- safe healing after a knockdown
- healing and choosing to take a hit, to punish when intrusion over-commits
- healing after a knockdown with a few seconds left on the clock, to get the health advantage and steal the round by time-over
- healing made to look like a bait, so intrusion doesn't try to punish it, and anticipating he won't get punished bee doesn't cancel it
- healing at a sliver of health, getting knocked back down to almost nothing, and still pulling out a victory
even when intrusion manages to punish he barely breaks even. as the match is starting commentators are talking about chun-li being the elena counterpick. halfway through the half hour long match infiltration is just staring at the character select screen and they're both freaking out and exhausted. infiltration takes so long just getting his bearings that the judges have to call time on him. and of course the last round (game 5, round 3, natch) ends in a blockfest and a timer scam.
somewhere in the world, an artisinal french chef is puckering and kissing his fingertips, red-faced, phallic headware flopping, potbelly shaking with laughter.
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Guillotine
Joined: 05 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:17 pm |
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| I can't decide if Necalli is cool because he has a very SNK movelist + Gill transformation + vaaague Pillar Man feel or he sucks because he's too much already. |
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Victor
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:38 pm |
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| Seems like a SF4 character which I had hoped there would be less/none of. |
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Drem
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: The Planet Bookshelves
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:03 pm |
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| mauve wrote: |
| I don't get the appeal of Xrd at all, it just looks like Setplay: The Game to me |
Up until this post I thought setplay just referred to a greater emphasis on playing against your opponent rather than their character over a set of games. The prevalence of the term now makes a lot more sense.
I think setplay is a consequence of of those style of games giving characters relatively strong rushdown + idiosyncratic abilities. There's less time to think on a particular moment due to the games' pace so you learn specific strategies for specific situations and adjust on the fly. It doesn't help that, at least in games like BlazBlue, moves are very clearly designed with a particular function and situational/combo usage rather than being versatile neutral tools. I think the appeal depends on a lot on how often you're stuck in setplay and how much versatility of options the game allows. In a game like Arcana Heart it's designed such that you have 7+ offensive options and 7+ defensive options in any particular situation, even knockdown, so you always feel like you're engaged in the decision making and not just playing off a flowchart. But if you're knocked down in MKX you don't really have a lot of options other than super armor, low poke, or jump. |
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ArOne
Joined: 16 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:18 pm |
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GG is about the furthest on the seplay spectrum I can enjoy. It really helps it's just part of the game instead of being nearly the whole game like Marvel or Blazblue. Even before you get to the setplay there's a lot of neutral to play with so it's a very fun game to play with people of equivalent skills.
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Mikey
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Location: endless backlog
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:40 pm |
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| Guillotine wrote: |
| I can't decide if Necalli is cool because he has a very SNK movelist + Gill transformation + vaaague Pillar Man feel or he sucks because he's too much already. |
| Victor wrote: |
| Seems like a SF4 character which I had hoped there would be less/none of. |
Gameplay wise I guess he's okay but his character design is atrocious. |
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:34 pm |
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| Victor wrote: |
| Seems like a SF4 character which I had hoped there would be less/none of. |
Abel's still pretty cool. |
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Victor
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:00 pm |
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| Yeah you right, you right. |
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Drem
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: The Planet Bookshelves
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| Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:33 pm |
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| ArOne wrote: |
| it's a very fun game to play with people of equivalent skills. |
no wonder you never play me anymore hu hu hu |
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ArOne
Joined: 16 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:01 am |
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All you gotta do is ask. You don't know how thirsty I am for games.
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Drem
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: The Planet Bookshelves
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:23 am |
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Any video footage from side tournaments not heavily advertised? I know of the stuff on AnimEvo's stream archives (Numakie, TheBrett, Jyosua) but has anything else there been captured?
I haven't finished it but KOF13 grand finals is real good. The comeback in the Aquapazza grand finals was dumb and should have never happened.
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kirby.png
Joined: 09 Jan 2014
Location: Orange Ocean
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:01 am |
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| Quote: |
The games are designed around being physically difficult to play, with execution technique as a primary differentiator in player skill. This could change and still keep basically all of the pure flowchart strategy intact but it wouldn't be the same game.
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The player that most people agree has the best execution didn't even make top 8.
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Victor
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:17 am |
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| Every Street Fighter player you have ever heard of has top class execution. That even Daigo is dropping Evil Ryu links speaks to the fact that absolute mastery is elusive by design. At the highest skill levels, perfect execution becomes less of an advantage and more of a prerequisite. |
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kirby.png
Joined: 09 Jan 2014
Location: Orange Ocean
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:27 am |
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I'm just saying you're absolutely wrong about execution being the primary method for determining player skill. There's a lot more going on than "pure flowchart strategy".
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:19 am |
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If the finals for the Sunday top 8s were any indication, reads and neutral game are a lot more important than execution.
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Victor
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:27 pm |
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| kirby.png wrote: |
| I'm just saying you're absolutely wrong about execution being the primary method for determining player skill. There's a lot more going on than "pure flowchart strategy". |
Those are not the points I was making, dawg. A method, not the method - though at beginner levels I would argue that it is indeed primary. Sure, yes, there is indeed a lot more going on than that; again my point was: strip away all execution barriers and the strategy decisions could remain the same but the game would not. |
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another god
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:51 pm |
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If the chance for me to pull of a B&B and a big complicated combo were the same, then I'd always pick the big one. But execution can't be taken away anyways - there's always going to be timing and spacing issues. Even small things like certain combos requiring meter require a certain skill that, in the heat of battle, is kinda the point.
Being able to execute under pressure is half the battle, dudes.
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mauve
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:44 pm |
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wrt the talk about input motions up above, I don't think you can remove them and have 'the same game' fundamentally. Part of the whole thing is it gives you hidden information that you wouldn't have normally; buffering things can be done predictively, leaving you situations where you can do things on prediction that you wouldn't be able to do on reaction. Removing motions removes that aspect of the genre, and it's a pretty critical one for a lot of games.
SF4's execution barriers are some of the highest there are and it's utterly, completely unnecessary. SF5 is rolling a fair number of them back, including finally killing 1F inputs by having a several-frame press range for inputs.
There's execution for expressiveness' sake, and then there's execution for execution's sake. You can tell when players are stronger at one than the other.
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Victor
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:31 pm |
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| mauve wrote: |
| Part of the whole thing is it gives you hidden information that you wouldn't have normally; buffering things can be done predictively, leaving you situations where you can do things on prediction that you wouldn't be able to do on reaction. Removing motions removes that aspect of the genre, and it's a pretty critical one for a lot of games. |
I think something like super-input-complexity can be rationalized as check to help ensure you're predicting and not reacting, not sure if that's an agreement?
I think it's interesting how that f2p robot fighter advertised at Evo is integrating explicit cool-downs, as say a direct counterpoint to the undercooked Gamecube CVS2 Easy Operation implementation (Guile can flash-kick immediately after sonic-boom, get serious Capcom). |
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Persona mobile
Joined: 11 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:37 pm |
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From what I hear, SF4's input complexity is because they were trying to patch a system that was designed one way initially but then adjusted/hacked to work another way after feedback from public testing. Like links are just totally hacked together and not system-designed, so they have to be manually implemented per character's move by a designer. That's why some moves are inconsistent after other attacks in later revisions - a designer messed up and didn't notice a condition set by the previous designer when updating the character.
But this is just whispers from whispers.
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Drem
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: The Planet Bookshelves
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| Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:22 pm |
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| Have any of you guys ever been to Summer Jam? I'm considering seeing if I can go this year, although it is a bit late to start making plans now. |
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kirby.png
Joined: 09 Jan 2014
Location: Orange Ocean
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:25 am |
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| Victor wrote: |
| kirby.png wrote: |
| I'm just saying you're absolutely wrong about execution being the primary method for determining player skill. There's a lot more going on than "pure flowchart strategy". |
Those are not the points I was making, dawg. A method, not the method - though at beginner levels I would argue that it is indeed primary. Sure, yes, there is indeed a lot more going on than that; again my point was: strip away all execution barriers and the strategy decisions could remain the same but the game would not. |
A good way to strip away 90% of the execution barrier is to practice for like 20 minutes.
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:12 am |
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I think I'm in love (with these normals)
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Wall of Beef
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Fart Beach
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:12 am |
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| Victor wrote: |
| Seems like a SF4 character which I had hoped there would be less/none of. |
Yep, its a really awful character design and the exact opposite direction I was hoping Street Fighter would go in.
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Lasakon
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Oregon Trail
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:06 am |
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"Tribal" warrior is pretty much the worst fighting game archetype. Only good ones are Cham Cham, Rila and Mudman.
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Drem
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: The Planet Bookshelves
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| Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:43 am |
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| BotageL wrote: |
| I think I'm in love (with these normals) [video] |
Man, every time you first see an UNIEL character you can't help but marvel at just how unreal their range is. Phonon space control looks real strong. |
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:52 pm |
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| Lasakon wrote: |
| "Tribal" warrior is pretty much the worst fighting game archetype. Only good ones are Cham Cham, Rila and Mudman. |
I guess it's impressive in its own way that Capcom has gone so long without learning how to not be hilariously racist. |
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Guillotine
Joined: 05 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:12 pm |
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| schroeder wrote: |
| Lasakon wrote: |
| "Tribal" warrior is pretty much the worst fighting game archetype. Only good ones are Cham Cham, Rila and Mudman. |
I guess it's impressive in its own way that Capcom has gone so long without learning how to not be hilariously racist. |
Ehh ultimately I don't really like the design either and I don't want to defend it, but I really don't feel that's the direction they took at all here. It's likely a lame riff on Jojo's pillarmen* + something from Ashura's Wrath. Ragey ancient asshole entity more than anything to me.
* Not only aesthetically, Santana had difficulty speaking at the beginning, and devouring people was their thing |
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Brooks
Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Location: peak caucasity
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:58 pm |
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| Capcom nailed pillarman with Gill/Urien, should just reinserted |
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