i've played against a lot of killers in a lot of different fighting games, and none of them have been more humbling -- or retirement-inducing -- than losing to a great ryu player.
Your elaboration isn't much really. I'm not trying to be dismissive, but I still don't think Ryu is anymore about yomi than any other character.
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most other characters rely on your ability to determine your range, own it, and when you lose it, regain it.
Every other character is this. Fighting games are this. Taking guesses/reading your opponent is just part of this.
then explain instead of just posting single sentences. you are being dismissive, whether or not you mean to, by not engaging. _________________ -pat m.
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My second sentence explains it pretty well I think.
It seems like a lot of what you're saying is because guessing is part of Ryu's game, Ryu's the best character to learn fighting games with. What I'm saying is I don't really see how he's anymore about guessing than other characters.
Basically I think the argument you're making for Ryu and be applied to pretty much any character in ST and probably most characters in other games. It's just a little more transparent what Ryu's options are because they're so iconic.
what he's saying is that ryu is more about reading your opponent because his most effective position/strategy is also his most vulnerable position/strategy, and that it's a lot less common or obvious a trait than you'd think.
dhalsim's most favored position/strategy is (usually) his opponent's least. threatening dhalsim's command of that position requires either attrition or an all-in read, until which point sim is still just chillin' out maintaining advantage, doing exactly what he wants to do in a moment-to-moment decision making sense. that's the distinction he meant by "own it". he's not at all the same as ryu in this regard. anyone else in SF i've bothered to think of off the top of my head is the same way.
i don't know if i feel for certain that it follows that ryu is then the most fighting gamey character and the best one to learn if you want to get good, but everything he said surrounding those ideas was spot on enough anyway and yeah ryu owns.
what he's saying is that ryu is more about reading your opponent because his most effective position/strategy is also his most vulnerable position/strategy
I don't really think this is true is I guess why I didn't see that. I think by definition your most effective position can't be your most vulnerable position, and even if it were I guess I just don't think sick 50/50 jump/no-jump yomi is the most interesting thing about fighting games at all. I guess this is all really subjective, but I'm comfortable in the fact that I'm at least not the person who tried to make it otherwise.
Also why not just do any mirror match, then? At that point every character's most effective range is also their most vulnerable range. I guess Mirror Match is the most interesting character....
because some mirror matches are ass. Vega, Blanka, and Honda mirrors, for example, are all incredibly boring to watch and play compared to Ryu mirror matches, which are awesome. if there were ryu-only tournaments for any game, i'd enter all of them. even marvel.
i think it is an incredible testament to the design of the character that the best ryu players can pick up a new street fighter game and immediately excel with ryu. i've never seen anything else like it in video games before.
when my mediocre ryu plays an even worse ryu, i can throw three fireballs in a row and know that he'll jump on the fourth. when i play an excellent ryu, he can throw 12 fireballs in a row and know i'll jump on the 13th. that is a skill you must cultivate with ryu that you don't have to cultivate with other characters.
i have spent more time and money losing to ricky's A-vega in CVS2 than i'd care to total up. he is really, really good at what he does, and what he does is to stand right outside c.mp range and poke. he can react to just about anything i do with c.mp, or a s.rh or air throw if i try to jump in. when i am too close or too far, he fixes that very quickly and efficiently, and then goes back to business. it's an amazing display of skill, but what he does is more about smart, conservative play and really good reactions. losing to ricky is frustrating, but i everything i see is apparent and obvious. it is a qualitatively different experience than losing to daigo or john choi, or even some of the ST Ryu killers on GGPO, because when i lose to those people, it makes me feel like there is an additional fighting game skill or gamesense that i have neglected to cultivate by not playing Ryu more. it's more than just guessing, because there's no way these guys could guess so accurately every time.
the best way i can describe is this feeling is that with each successive fireball clash, there is a certain sense of tension that increases -- the temptation to jump, or focus attack, or EX, or whatever not-fireball options to have to try and gain the lead. players who are very very good can read that tension and use it to bait me into doing something stupid. it may look like a guess on the surface, but i really don't think that highly advanced players are guessing.
anyway, i don't really care whether you and i find the same things enjoyable about fighting games. i know that i've been playing these things seriously for about 12 years now, and lately i have been rediscovering how really awesome Ryu is compared to all the not-Ryu characters i've played throughout the years. each time i have focused on playing Ryu in the past, i have made gains in my overall SF ability, and i can't say that for any other character i've sat down and played. i know why i think ryu is the most interesting character in all of fighting games, and i think i've done a decent amount of explanation as to why i find that to be the case.
since you seem to be content with posting glib responses that don't really engage, i'm going to bow out of this conversation now, because it's not really worth my time. thanks for giving me a chance to work out some of these thoughts, though, because they'll come in handy for one of my side projects. _________________ -pat m.
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Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:59 am
Everyone looks up to you. They listen to your theme. If you tell them to fight, they'll fight. But they need to be excited. And let's face it, Ryu... the last time you really excited anyone -- was when you were evil.
Ryu being awesome doesn't really stop the games he's in from being about the other characters at high levels.
Personal opinion is that fighting games are at their most interesting when they are multidimensional (that is, spacing -and- timing), and that the games just get less interesting when they're only about one, characters be damned. _________________ twit
i'm late for the ryu circlejerk but ryu has been one of my role models since i was old enough to get why he was doing his thing, and i mained him in sf2 well before that even. he's legit as hell and i feel pat 100% on his stuff. and now, nailing that srk fadc ultra combo just feels so right
MK has this weird aesthetic that's so gross. 3D MK still retains the weirdness of originals, but I don't think they have any of the charm. _________________ interdimensional
There's no way in Hell they're hitting $600K, as much as I'd like them to. Maybe they can find a publisher to pay for Skullgirls #Reload after Big Band's finished.
work that BotageL reverse psychology magic!
BotageL, a few days ago wrote:
i'm contractually obligated to post about how sadly skeptical i am of the skullgirls team getting $150k to make another character
i'd really really like it to happen, and my being hella skeptical of success levels has been a lucky charm before, so...
did people not realize arguing street fighter with i.dinghy was pointless the moment he replied to ssf2t being great with just a big ol' picture of sagat
i just think ryu is hella boring, character design and mechanical design. if playing as/against ryu gets your rocks off, though, hey, go for it. _________________ http://www.mdgeist.com/
Ryu may seem boring because his game plan is basically the same ever since SF2. He is a staple, a template. Compare that to, say, how Dictator is played in SF2:CE and CVS2.
Pat, [thanks for] the Great posts. Made me miss Ben Reed, too. _________________
There's no way in Hell they're hitting $600K, as much as I'd like them to. Maybe they can find a publisher to pay for Skullgirls #Reload after Big Band's finished.
work that BotageL reverse psychology magic!
BotageL, a few days ago wrote:
i'm contractually obligated to post about how sadly skeptical i am of the skullgirls team getting $150k to make another character
i'd really really like it to happen, and my being hella skeptical of success levels has been a lucky charm before, so...
hmmm...
Oh my god, we're gonna hit 600k in a few hours
This is crazy
People are loving Issac, the time traveling professor badass _________________
personally i'd still rather see a sol badguy or, yes, ryu-type character make it in. skullgirls doesn't really have an "uncomplicated character for beginners/americans" or a "character with simple, hard-hitting combos and straightforward moves."
or feng since i always wanted bridget's swinging around a set point mechanic attached to a less complicated character than bridget _________________ http://www.mdgeist.com/
I like Isaac if anything because hurling doubles of yourself at your opponent reminds me of my favorite OMF2097 fighter, Shadow. Hopefully he'd have the thing where a bunch of doubles appear and gang up on the opponent Felicia-style.
Also, from a dev POV I'm nicely impressed the prototype mechanic got scripted so fast.
I used to play Jaguar more than Shadow even though Shadow was my fave because it was pre-accessible-internet where I live. I'd gotten a hintbook in my game box (had hi-res renders of the robots, too) but it only detailed the destruction (fatality) move for Jaguar, and those moves were the only way to face secret opponents.
personally i'd still rather see a sol badguy or, yes, ryu-type character make it in. skullgirls doesn't really have an "uncomplicated character for beginners/americans" or a "character with simple, hard-hitting combos and straightforward moves."
Very much this. SG felt to much like Marvel without the Ryu fallback and there isn't much skill crossover between characters like in Guilty Gear.
I think I'm leaning between Hubrecht, Ottomo and Beowulf. Though I also dig the ideas behind Adam, Molly and Panzerfaust. _________________
Joined: 16 Oct 2012 Location: post-industrial abandoned wasteland
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:25 pm
Statistically speaking, the highest concentration of donations comes in at the last 8 hours, so it looks like they're on pace for 800k, maybe 825. also yes to the ryu-type character in SG. that would rule so hard
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