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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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 Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:38 pm |
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| Variety wrote: |
| To remake “Tomb Raider,” nailing Croft was necessary, according to Noah Hughes, creative director at Crystal Dynamics. “Looking at Lara as a character, she was still going to be an intellectual heroine, a brilliant archeologist, but more athletic, more competent in traversal and puzzle-solving and combat,” he said. |
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sponkmonkey
Joined: 24 May 2011
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:22 pm |
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| Variety wrote: |
| She really embodies adventure,” Hughes said. “She’s an expression of all the things that are exciting and fun about going on epic adventures. There’s an X factor that no one can explain but is universal in design. She’s a great character to work with.” |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:41 pm |
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| Mime Paradox wrote: |
| Toptube wrote: |
Somebody needs to explain to me how the basic idea of a girl wearing cargo pants, boots, and two tank tops is modern sexualization. You know what, that's almost the same exact thing that Jade wears in Beyond Good and Evil. except Jade trades armskin for belly skin. As she wears an unzipped jacket, too.
[...]
In this new game, [Lara is] a slim framed, moderately cute faced girl, dressed like she's riding a boat in the tropical sea/expecting to traverse tropical shores. Other than an ideal, albeit realistic body, she appears very normal. |
You're right: New!Lara isn't wearing anything that Jade doesn't wear, and yet the characters come across incredibly differently. Basically, it has to do with the fact that being sexualized has nothing to do with the type of body a woman has, and everything to do with the people sexualizing them. The idea that the problem was Lara's large breasts was always a red herring--the programers could have always simply tried the radical step of not sexualizing them (see, for example, Elisabeth (The King of Fighters) and what her second costume does in comparison to her first)--and the conceit that changing how Lara looks would magically solve her sexdoll image is marvy in the way it mixes disingeniousness (Really, people? Have you not been out in the world?) with victim blaming. And as evidence, we have the new Lara, where the only thing that appears to be different is indeed the character's figure. Aside from that what, exactly, has changed?
(Seriously, I don't know. I haven't played the originals). |
her breasts are still pretty large for her frame and are frequently at the center of the camera's attention in the cutscene's I've seen. also her clothes are a lot more form fitting and revealing than what jade wears. and jade has this almost butch kind of look going on with her short hair and relatively stocky frame. she also wears a jacket which takes attention off her breasts, her cargo pants are baggy, etc., her facial features more masculine/androgynous...
I mean, if you want some objective, concrete differences.
now if jade looked more like this piece of fanart you might have a point:
but even that is tame compared to any lara croft rendition
| Talbain wrote: |
| Variety wrote: |
| nailing Croft was necessary |
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what an unfortunate choice of words
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ionustron
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:52 pm |
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| Toups wrote: |
| Talbain wrote: |
| Variety wrote: |
| nailing Croft was necessary |
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what an unfortunate choice of words |
Holy shit triple-entendres actually exist?? ;.; or is it a double-double? |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:12 pm |
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at least triple:
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tacotaskforce
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Logical, Practical
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:33 pm |
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ITT: People discovering the writing style of Variety for the first time.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:38 pm |
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It is pretty important than in earlier Tomb Raiders Lara was represented by like 30 polygons. Graphical fidelity matters.
It is also pretty important that in earlier Tomb Raiders Lara was being attacked by tigers and gorillas which are not known for raping human women no matter how Wildstorm-huge their breasts may be.
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:02 pm |
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| Swimmy wrote: |
| Toptube wrote: |
Somebody needs to explain to me how the basic idea of a girl wearing cargo pants, boots, and two tank tops is modern sexualization. You know what, that's almost the same exact thing that Jade wears in Beyond Good and Evil. except Jade trades armskin for belly skin. As she wears an unzipped jacket, too.
If you want to see modern sexualization, go visit your local comic book store and look at just about any cover artwork.
*here, I will effectively do that work for you and even make it extremely relevant:
That's what Lara Croft used to be.
In this new game, she's a slim framed, moderately cute faced girl, dressed like she's riding a boat in the tropical sea/expecting to traverse tropical shores. Other than an ideal, albeit realistic body, she appears very normal. |
http://artwallpapers.co/wallpaper/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/24/Tomb-Raider-2013-video-game-Wallpaper-3.jpg
http://imgs.mi9.com/uploads/movie-tv/4659/jessica-alba-in-machete-wallpaper-7_1680x1050_83470.jpg
http://thebestcelebritybodies.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/jessica-biel-body-workout-3.jpg
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9100000/December-2009-Maxim-ashley-greene-9114293-1885-2560.jpg
The comic book shop is not the place to look to find what the mainstream currently considers sexy. |
| Toups wrote: |
| Mime Paradox wrote: |
| Toptube wrote: |
Somebody needs to explain to me how the basic idea of a girl wearing cargo pants, boots, and two tank tops is modern sexualization. You know what, that's almost the same exact thing that Jade wears in Beyond Good and Evil. except Jade trades armskin for belly skin. As she wears an unzipped jacket, too.
[...]
In this new game, [Lara is] a slim framed, moderately cute faced girl, dressed like she's riding a boat in the tropical sea/expecting to traverse tropical shores. Other than an ideal, albeit realistic body, she appears very normal. |
You're right: New!Lara isn't wearing anything that Jade doesn't wear, and yet the characters come across incredibly differently. Basically, it has to do with the fact that being sexualized has nothing to do with the type of body a woman has, and everything to do with the people sexualizing them. The idea that the problem was Lara's large breasts was always a red herring--the programers could have always simply tried the radical step of not sexualizing them (see, for example, Elisabeth (The King of Fighters) and what her second costume does in comparison to her first)--and the conceit that changing how Lara looks would magically solve her sexdoll image is marvy in the way it mixes disingeniousness (Really, people? Have you not been out in the world?) with victim blaming. And as evidence, we have the new Lara, where the only thing that appears to be different is indeed the character's figure. Aside from that what, exactly, has changed?
(Seriously, I don't know. I haven't played the originals). |
her breasts are still pretty large for her frame and are frequently at the center of the camera's attention in the cutscene's I've seen. also her clothes are a lot more form fitting and revealing than what jade wears. and jade has this almost butch kind of look going on with her short hair and relatively stocky frame. she also wears a jacket which takes attention off her breasts, her cargo pants are baggy, etc., her facial features more masculine/androgynous...
I mean, if you want some objective, concrete differences.
now if jade looked more like this piece of fanart you might have a point:
***jade fanart***
but even that is tame compared to any lara croft rendition
| Talbain wrote: |
| Variety wrote: |
| nailing Croft was necessary |
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what an unfortunate choice of words |
Except that women wear tank tops and pants every day. A girl posing in tank top and pants is pretty harmless, as far as "modeling" shots go.
When a girl wears "normal" clothes in a modeling shot, the basic beauty and qualities of the girl are appreciated. or maybe the character that she is portraying, as a whole, is taken in from the shot. The only one of those shots that is grossly sexualizing or forcing out some very specific sex, is the Maxim cover.
None of those other shots is focusing on tits or some special bend/twist to get her ass toward the front of the frame----or anything like that.
It would seem then, that since the pictures exist at all [i[i[/i], that's considered the problem. Or that the girls in the pics happen to have what may be considered a cuter than average face.
SINCE WHEN, do we have to suck out all incling of sexuality, before we can present something. A lot of people would argue that's not correct. There is a balance and it can be tough to find. But I can tell you, women don't want to lose their sexuality. Nobody does.
In that official artwork wallpaper, she appears tough, poised, enduring. A slight bit of a pose, yeah. no cleavage. her strap isn't even making her boobs pop, like they would actually do on a real girl. Yeah, she's got some C cups and a slim body. So what, lots of girls have slim bodies. She's not wearing a plunging neckline or a wonderbra or anything. I don't think there are any problems with Lara's appearance in this new game. She has normal clothes, they fit/aren't too small, her proportions aren't flaunted. So far I haven't seen her posed in any grossly sexual poses. Again it think all of those linked pictures portray (besides the maxim cover) a decent, healthy sexuality.
and then lets look at Jade VS. in game Lara. Because I think that Jade is pretty much universally agreed to be a "correct" female image:
a couple of these were borrowed without asking from DJ these don't embed
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130804646
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130810917
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130810951
http://www.hallofgaming.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Tomb-Raider-2013-Screenshot.jpg
http://artwallpapers.co/wallpaper/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/24/Tomb-Raider-2013-video-game-Wallpaper-3.jpg
Other than saying that I think there aren't any appreciable differences, I will let the image speak for themselves, for now.
---------------------------
I'm NOT saying there aren't any problems with Lara's characterization or some of the situations she may or may not be put through. I'm saying that here appearance and the character that they seem to ultimately want her to be, are fine.
I haven also taken issue with some highly specific, subjective interpretations about specific scenes, which we've already been talking about.
I'm gonna go play this now. I will probably post in DJ's axe thread.
Last edited by Toptube on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:05 pm |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| It is pretty important than in earlier Tomb Raiders Lara was represented by like 30 polygons. Graphical fidelity matters. |
You have to look at the time. at the time, original Tomb Raider was cutting edge, highest fidelity available. That context matters. With that context, Lara's original appearance VS. 2013 appearance can be compared. Even still, the fact that 2013 lara of course can possibly look more real, its arguably even more great that she does then look like a normal girl. *striclty talking about appearance, right now.
I don't feel like I can go too far into the discussion of portrayal, specific scenarios, her enemies, etc, until I've actually played the game. |
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Swimmy
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:14 pm |
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| Toptube wrote: |
| SINCE WHEN, do we have to suck out all incling of sexuality, before we can present something. A lot of people would argue that's not correct. There is a balance and it can be tough to find. But I can tell you, women don't want to lose their sexuality. Nobody does. |
I did not, at any point, say that we needed to suck out any inkling of sexuality from Lara Croft's character. I didn't say that it wasn't "fine." I said that her redesign is sexy. In fact I think it is sexier than the goofy unrealistic cartoonish design that she used to be, and I'd wager that most game-playing hetero male young adults would agree with me. That's all it takes for this point to be right and it is weird that you are focusing on bra straps and cleavage and Jade instead of whether or not the redesign fits modern "sexy" ideals. The reason she looks like a "normal" girl is because normal girls now dress like that to look sexy, because that's what people think is sexy now.
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Last edited by Swimmy on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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shrugtheironteacup
man of tomorrow
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: a meat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:16 pm |
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CONTEXT!
17 years ago a half-torso of tit was needed to get across the SEXYLADY vibe they were trying to sell.
Now, with ten billion more polygons, they can convey the supermodel next door wih more subtlety while disingenuously crowing about their less overtly sexual design thus drawing attention to the appearance they say isn't so important any more because its al about the character. 8)
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tacotaskforce
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Logical, Practical
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:35 pm |
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Having a game's marketing department say everything positive about their product, regardless of whether or not it's true, isn't news. It's their job.
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:38 pm |
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| Swimmy wrote: |
| Toptube wrote: |
| SINCE WHEN, do we have to suck out all incling of sexuality, before we can present something. A lot of people would argue that's not correct. There is a balance and it can be tough to find. But I can tell you, women don't want to lose their sexuality. Nobody does. |
I did not, at any point, say that we needed to suck out any inkling of sexuality from Lara Croft's character. I didn't say that it wasn't "fine." I said that her redesign is sexy. In fact I think it is sexier than the goofy unrealistic cartoonish design that she used to be, and I'd wager that most game-playing hetero male young adults would agree with me. That's all it takes for this point to be right and it is weird that you are focusing on bra straps and cleavage and Jade instead of whether or not the redesign fits modern "sexy" ideals. The reason she looks like a "normal" girl is because normal girls now dress like that to look sexy, because that's what people think is sexy now. |
Original Lara's designe is complete objectification. Her proportionas are so overblown, she's nearly a caricature. Her design and appearance have nothing to do with the setting, with her character, and there is no precedent to acknowledge, since it was the original.
I think its completely reasonable that you or some guy would find a "real" girl wearing a fitting tank top and pants, to be more attractive that a women with large fake boobs, a too small tank top, and short shorts. That's about you, but it also points out how ridiculous objectified extremes can be.
Women don't wear normal clothes to be sexy. But if they are positioned/shown as sexy, in normal clothes; I would argue its about the women herself. Here basic inherent beauty, not her costume or what focus it may or may not bring to any given part of her body. Yeah this is a fairly modern trend. To focus more on the girl herself. Not make her up in some impossible costume. I think that's a good and healthy situation for women.
If that's a trend, then isn't that good? If the trendy sex image right now is girl in normal clothes is beautiful because girls are beautiful or because she specifically is attractive; then you make something that copies or otherwise parallels that method and that's somehow wrong, that's saying that we should "suck out all incling of sexuality".
I was focusing on Jade's appearance in comparison to Lara 2013, because I don't think there are any major differences. I also don't think there are any differences with those two, compared to that picture of Jessica Beal.
Last edited by Toptube on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:49 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:42 pm |
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| Maybe this has been said before in the last few pages but to me clearly the worst thing about the new Tomb Raider, and something I don't have to play the game to know about, is that it's coming from this particular idea of "feminine empowerment" wherein the woman can only be empowered once she has gone through a specifically masculine string of traumatic events, and this usually involves rape/attempted rape (rape historically and currently being a masculine action); that is, the woman cannot be empowered except through the violence of the man done unto her. I think the most popular recent example of this narrative is the Girl with a Dragon Tattoo series. And this game has just taken that narrative to a certain extreme. |
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lofighost
pine maiden
Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Location: God Mountain Y. Kohyama
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:27 pm |
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| Toptube wrote: |
If you want to see modern sexualization, go visit your local comic book store and look at just about any cover artwork.
*here, I will effectively do that work for you and even make it extremely relevant:
That's what Lara Croft used to be. |
oh my god who would put this on a cover this is hilarious
did lara croft find her hole in the amigara fault and raided her way out before she could get any more deformed????
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sono hi ga itsuka kuru made / nakanai yo omoidasu yo
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:42 pm |
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male gaze, y'all, come on
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Loki Laufeyson
fps fragmaster
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Beneath the Mushroom Kingdom
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Gorblax
Ganbare Gorbly!
Joined: 07 Nov 2011
Location: Violence Island
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:53 pm |
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Have you guys watched Conan O'Brien's other game reviews? He might accidentally be the best reviewer today.
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| tacotaskforce wrote: |
| My vision of gorblax is of an automaton built to function seamlessly in a society which no longer, or perhaps never, existed, but which is similar to our own. |
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armed police catrider
Joined: 03 Dec 2009
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:46 pm |
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| diplo wrote: |
| Maybe this has been said before in the last few pages but to me clearly the worst thing about the new Tomb Raider, and something I don't have to play the game to know about, is that it's coming from this particular idea of "feminine empowerment" wherein the woman can only be empowered once she has gone through a specifically masculine string of traumatic events, and this usually involves rape/attempted rape (rape historically and currently being a masculine action); that is, the woman cannot be empowered except through the violence of the man done unto her. I think the most popular recent example of this narrative is the Girl with a Dragon Tattoo series. And this game has just taken that narrative to a certain extreme. |
yeah, at the end of the day this is ultimately what the game is selling, and the more controversial aspects of the game end up serving this narrative whether they do so intentionally or not. |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:36 am |
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I heard that Lara Croft was voiced by Nolan North in this one, is that right? Purchase of game depends on this.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:33 am |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| More like Jennifer Hale |
I was afraid that this game would take me out of my comfort zone. Well let's call that a bullet dodged!
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SuperWes
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:51 am |
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I totally realized just now that the "male gaze" happening in this thread is coming from the white men misinterperiting the E3 trailer as rape, spike impalements as blowjobs, and tank tops as an attempt to look fuckable. It all makes sense now.
Anyhow, here's an excerpt from an excellent interview that's very highly related to this discussion.
| Rhianna Pratchett, writer of Tomb Raider, Mirror’s Edge, Heavenly Sword, and Overlord wrote: |
So after the last blowup, have you been instructed not to use the word “rape” in interviews?
No. No. No one has ever actually told me what to say or not to say. I don’t think it’s an appropriate word to use for that scene. That was part of the problem. It was genuinely never meant to be talked about in that way. There was a lot of speculation about how this was just cynical PR and was deliberately described that way to create news and hits, absolutely not.
No one wanted it described like that, at all. Since I hadn’t been announced as the writer there was literally nothing I could do apart from watch people, like your good self, be very annoyed about it, and actually understand, as I was a former journalist and kept asking myself what I would be upset about and what would I be angry about what would I have questions about. I had to watch people trashing my work, assuming I was a white, male, American straight man. There was a lot of assumptions about who had put it in and why, that were wrong, really. Absolutely wrong.
I understand why people were upset about it, and frustrated, but I think it was more about the sentiments expressed suggesting that players couldn’t empathize with Lara, or they wanted to protect her. I know from working in games for such a long time that the players’ relationship with the player character is fairly unique. I’m not going to say that no player is going to be protective towards Lara, but certainly some players, myself included, I feel like I am Lara. I am Raz in Psychonauts. I am a Tauren Druid in World of Warcraft.
There’s no one way of summing up the relationship between players and player characters, so I can see why some people would have problems with words like “protect,” even though that was never linked to that one scene in the interview. People did link it, and I think players do, both male and female, do empathize as Lara and see themselves as Lara. No one has instructed to say or not say anything about that scene. So I’m allowed to talk about it.
It has to be frustrating though. When it was announced that you were writing the game, there was almost relief, like ‘we’re fine because a woman is writing a game’. It instantly became non-problematic because of that.
It’s not fine because I’m a woman. It’s fine because we approached it with the right creative sentiments. It was an honest scene for those characters and that moment. It wasn’t done for titillation. It wasn’t prolonged. It was uncomfortable because it should be uncomfortable. Killing someone and being put in that situation and having to kill someone should be uncomfortable. Now that I’ve had the chance to talk about it and where we’re coming from… lots of journalists haven’t played that scene in context.
They hadn’t seen the reactions of Lara, which were cut down in that trailer, and so few people could understand that scene in context, so there was a lot of assumptions and a lot of finger-pointing in the industry press, and I thought, ‘Good people, this is what we accuse the wider media of doing to us all the time!’ Assumptions without context, and you’re doing exactly the same.
But it’s been a valuable debate. It’s been interesting topic, the way we talk about players and player characters, and the way we talk about female characters. No one has been happy with how it was described, and how it came out but there was value in it. |
There's more at the link! Lots of stuff to talk about here.
-Wes
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mauve
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:02 am |
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I read that as "Marketing portrayed it a specific way out of context, which is the only thing people have to go on, and that's just not fair to us."
So... don't do that? This isn't hard. If it was taken that way it's because the trailer was cut in such a way to give that impression. That too is marketing.
It's plenty fair to judge things based on information that is designed to give you an impression of what you will experience with it.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:07 am |
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| Quote: |
| It was genuinely never meant to be talked about in that way. |
How can someone possibly have made a thing that people experience and still think you have a right to this view? This is incredibly naive.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:14 am |
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| Quote: |
| It’s fine because we approached it with the right creative sentiments. |
If only I cared about a stranger's sentiments.
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apfEID
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Location: NYC / Lordran
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:18 am |
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Male gaze is one hell of a topic to open the can of worms on when it comes to video games...
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Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:37 am |
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| Reed wrote: |
| Hojulas wrote: |
| How long until a game adds a way to take into account various elements of your sreenshot, such as angle, action occurring, etc, and then slaps a DMC style rating on the screenshot? |
pokemon: snap |
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| mauve wrote: |
| thieves are more boons to other classes than anything else. |
http://pleasestopthese.tumblr.com |
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:50 am |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It was genuinely never meant to be talked about in that way. |
How can someone possibly have made a thing that people experience and still think you have a right to this view? This is incredibly naive. |
Maybe because society puts a lot of value in a creator and their thoughts and processes. Many creators gain a career out of precedence and reputation.
People can interpret just about anything from anything. Especially if they want something specific. (this is often baffling to a creator)
Some people will spout these interpretations as truths. The more personal these interpretations are, the more difficult it is for anyone else to see the link. Especially, the creator.
At some pont, someone always consults the creator. Often, the creator reveals that at least some of the interpretations were not intended, surprising, unforseen. Sometimes they like the new take, sometimes they don't. Its always polarizing because What a creator says about a work is the only truth. But now people have had such personal reactions to it, they can't let it go so easily.
Last edited by Toptube on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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spinach
hardline radical martian
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:54 am |
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nah not really it doesn't
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| mauve wrote: |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:01 am |
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| Toptube wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It was genuinely never meant to be talked about in that way. |
How can someone possibly have made a thing that people experience and still think you have a right to this view? This is incredibly naive. |
Maybe because society puts a lot of value in a creator and their thoughts and processes. Many creators gain a career out of precedence and reputation.
People can interpret just about anything from anything. Especially if they want something specific. (this is often baffling to a creator)
Some people will spout these interpretations as truths. The more personal these interpretations are, the more difficult it is for anyone else to see the link.
At some pont, someone always consults the creator. Often, the creator reveals that at least some of the interpretations were not intended, surprising, unforseen. Sometimes they like the new take, sometimes they don't. Its always polarizing because What a creator says about a work is the only truth. But now people have had such personal reactions to it, they can't let it go so easily. |
The creator's intentions are little more than trivia. If you made a rule of it, nothing would be interesting and everything would be a fact. If you make a trailer that a lot of people think looks like rape mongering, you accidentally made a trailer that contains rape mongering.
That's a simplification of the matter, but she has no monopoly on perception or correctness of interpretation.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:06 am |
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| Quote: |
Its always polarizing because What a creator says about a work is the only truth. But now people have had such personal reactions to it, they can't let it go so easily.
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This is pretty amateur thinking on the topic. I'm probably being condescending here, but, like, no one who writes or thinks seriously about criticism agrees with this statement, and for many good reasons. You probably don't even agree with it in all circumstances, so perhaps toning down the "only" would help the model fit here.
You've taken up a pretty big task of defending the game against what people perceive in it. If creative intent if your ammunition, then I think that this problem will turn out to be bigger than you expect.
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Last edited by Adilegian on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:07 am |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| Toptube wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It was genuinely never meant to be talked about in that way. |
How can someone possibly have made a thing that people experience and still think you have a right to this view? This is incredibly naive. |
Maybe because society puts a lot of value in a creator and their thoughts and processes. Many creators gain a career out of precedence and reputation.
People can interpret just about anything from anything. Especially if they want something specific. (this is often baffling to a creator)
Some people will spout these interpretations as truths. The more personal these interpretations are, the more difficult it is for anyone else to see the link.
At some pont, someone always consults the creator. Often, the creator reveals that at least some of the interpretations were not intended, surprising, unforseen. Sometimes they like the new take, sometimes they don't. Its always polarizing because What a creator says about a work is the only truth. But now people have had such personal reactions to it, they can't let it go so easily. |
The creator's intentions don't mean shit. |
they do to the creator. People who create stuff, their output is often deeply personal to them and means something to them. Even if its not meant to have a lot of subtext. They created it. The thing wouldn't exist otherwise. But suddenly, that doesn't matter? It has to matter, on principal. |
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Rud31
forum ruler of Iraq
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: SanAnTex
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:10 am |
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| Quote: |
| they do to the creator. People who create stuff, their output is often deeply personal to them and means something to them. Even if its not meant to have a lot of subtext. They created it. The thing wouldn't exist otherwise. But suddenly, that doesn't matter? It has to matter, on principal. |
And that makes an audience of one.
I understand quite personally what being a creator means. When you make something, the second you share it with someone, you lose control of it, and the control you had prior to sharing will never come back.
Obviously, a copyright lawyer will never tell you that, and we'd be foolish not to assume that there's muscle incentive behind her public support of intention. Those interview words aren't coming to us in a legal vacuum. Trusting them over, gosh, about 100 years of literary and aesthetic conversation is putting fluid culture at the hands of a monetary system that requires a legal definition of art in order to monetize it.
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Toptube
Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:11 am |
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| I'm gonna guess that Pratchett probably had little influence on the trailer. and I mean that objectively, I don't have any personal interest in giving her preferential treatment. |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:13 am |
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| Toptube wrote: |
| I'm gonna guess that Pratchett probably had little influence on the trailer. and I mean that objectively, I don't have any personal interest in giving her preferential treatment. |
And she also had little influence on the algorithms that go into the control mechanics. It's a collaborative project, including the marketing, so that means that that trailer is also the project that she worked on. Each iteration is a facet or aspect of the same project. It's messy and contradictory by nature, which makes again any claim to creative intent flawed since it's just as easily undermined by the collaborative aspect as it is the interpretive.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:14 am |
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I'm not trying to be a dick to you, in case that's how this is coming across. I think that your arguments have merit despite my disagreements with many of them.
I just think that there are some excesses in the generalities that you're using as supports that are weaker than they seem.
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This Machine Kills Fascis
Unfinite Indiscovery
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Inside Thomas the Tank Engine, screaming
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:15 am |
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| Schwere Viper wrote: |
I saw a documentary on the team that made Tomb Raider up to I believe the fourth game, and a full five-ten minutes is spent interviewing the guy who apparently sat in a cubicle and thought up ways to kill Lara.
Wonder if it's the same guy. |
Never played any of the Tomb Raiders, but I've heard that one of the things that people really had fun with in the first game was all the different ways that Lara could die. If we're going to be charitable, we could take that to be adolescent glee at the possibilities afforded by game technology, rather than a seething desire to see women die over and over again.
That might sound like a weak defense, but I've always thought that the general enthusiasm for GTA III was not so much bloodlust as a desire to transgress the supposed inherent boundaries/limitations of video games.
In the same way, I really can see people saying, "Whoa! Look at all the animations they have for her dying!" But then, that was when she was a pile of polygons and it was practically cartoon violence.
So the whole neck impalement is kind of like seeing Daffy Duck vivisect Bugs.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:18 am |
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SelectButton
like seeing Daffy Duck vivisect Bugs
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sawtooth
heh
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: flashback
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| Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:18 am |
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re5 is racist
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