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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:35 am |
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gonna go back and read this thread later maybe but adi basically convinced me to buy this game tonight
liking it so far, basically
nice to have a use for my ps3
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remote
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:31 pm |
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so, bill is supposed to be bill hicks in the zombie apocalypse, right?
this isn't a game i feel like evaluating too harshly, i guess. it's HL2 + RE4 + the walking dead + children of men the AAA swansong of the PS3 amen hallelujah
i mean, it kinda just works for me as a thing to enjoy. moving around in its very gorgeous, detailed environments is something i don't know if i've ever enjoyed so fully in a videogame. i'm looking for supplies, of course, but i want to explore each and every place anyway. i feel like if i move on without soaking it all in, i'm missing out on something.
sometimes the combat pisses me off and the weird collision detection and one-hit death-by-clickers are really aggravating, but. well. sometimes it works really smoothly, depending on what i have on me. sneaking around and burning down two or three clickers with one molotov while i drink in the scenery isn't so bad.
i was a skeptic! it's no dark souls 8) but so far — 3 or 4 hours in — it's a pretty rad videogame.
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remote
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:05 pm |
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a very bitter, angry, humorless bill hicks
but yeah, i didn't know that was who played him! makes sense now
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:33 pm |
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i guess i see it differently! i'm enjoying the sights, and i pick stuff up along the way. i don't have to look too hard to notice shiny things.
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:09 pm |
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a couple of the skill upgrades are silly and mostly useless, but it doesn't matter much since it takes so long to scrounge up the pills for one upgrade anyway
6 or 7 hours, now, and i only have "shiv master"
the baubles aren't that big of a deal, seriously. you see things glinting in the light and you walk by and tap triangle a few times to grab everything. you scrap together your crappy shivs and molotovs and whatever else and keep moving. it doesn't fuck up the pacing since it's not a shooter, really. i'm enjoying just walking around and looking at things more than i'm enjoying the actual combat. that's where this game's real strength is: just a really powerful sense of being in a real with place dust motes floating in the light.
you could say the skill upgrades and some of the weapon upgrade stuff is cruft, but it really doesn't get in the way or pad the game out all that much. i mean, unless you're just trying to blast through the game without actually taking your time the way i am, maybe...
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remote
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remote
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:23 am |
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i kinda like the fungus zombie thing i guess
so far there has been no obnoxious WE ARE THE REAL MONSTERS nonsense — it is as straight as the road about "well yeah we're awful, no shit" even though zombies are around, too
right from the beginning, even!
i mean, there's never any ambiguity when you encounter other groups of humans — no chance that they'll be friendly. you're either gonna sneak past 'em or you're gonna kill 'em
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:20 pm |
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some things I said in facebook comments to an acquaintance contemplating whether this could be as good or better as a movie:
| Quote: |
I guess the appeal is that, unlike with a movie, you have control over the MC and the camera movement, to some extent — enough that you can look around and really drink in these lavishly detailed environments. The animations, too, like when Joel puts his hands up against the side of a car while you're hiding, all feel very fluid and natural and that's pleasing to see when you're the one pulling his strings. Dissonance arises with some of the weird combat problems and the silly skill upgrades, AI companion behavior, etc. but I'd still rather be playing this than watching it. And no, it's not as successful at holistic design as some of my favorite videogames, but the sense of being there is so strong in this one that I'm overlooking a lot of crufty design bullshit that might irk me more otherwise. Been a long while since a AAA game has impressed me so much.
(and the story it tells is, imo, secondary to its setting, which is the way I feel it should be in videogames. So I see no need to consider what it would be like as a film.) |
So yeah, perhaps to simplify what Adi said, it's a setting I want to inhabit, not as much a narrative I care to watch.
| Dracko wrote: |
| I don't understand why speedrunning should be considered a problematic or inappropriate way to play. |
I think it's a cool secondary way to approach the game (or almost any game that isn't built in a way that particularly lends itself to speedrunning), but I'm with Adi on encouraging folks to take their sweet time with it at least once. Your first time, ideally.
| Dracko wrote: |
| It seems pretty unfair to me to claim that people who are interested in optimising a game's mechanics and design quirks as much as possible in order to complete it are missing out on most of its contents. |
I mean, uh... okay?
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:52 pm |
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Also as far as I can tell Day Z isn't even close to half as pretty. That's a weird, left-field comparison.
(Not saying Day Z isn't a phenomenal game or one that you can't inhabit, of course — it's just an entirely different thing.)
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remote
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:46 am |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| Also Adi, I think speedrunning takes just as much ponderous observation of the game, just maybe not the context of the game you're most interested in. |
I feel like you guys are totally failing to grasp what Adi is saying: yeah, duh, speedrunning takes careful observation and an understanding what of makes for optimal movement through a game (which isn't haphazard, but yes, it is rushing). In order to figure that out, it would probably behoove the speedrunner to take a more leisurely stroll through the game and plot a course instead of haphazardly rushing through the game from the start. This is the angle Adi and I (and mauve) are coming from, and I think it's weird that Dracko is failing to see that. A speedrunner would only be enabled by taking their time with the game at least once, if only in preparation for actual attempts at making good time. That's just the kind of game this is!
Maybe we're all saying the same thing and for whatever reason just not connecting on it, but I'll say again that I think taking your sweet time is the primary way to enjoy the game to the fullest, and speedrunning might be a secondary or alternative way to squeeze more out of the game. It's fine if others see speedrunning as the primary way to play a game, I just think there's no need to be bothered if others disagree and think the game should be savored.
Unrelated, but this game has so far done one thing that really pissed me off: died a few times during one sequence and it just killed the enemies for me and placed me at the next checkpoint. I felt insulted. This was on Normal, though — I hope it doesn't happen on survival mode?
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remote
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:57 am |
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except that there are plenty of fights against 2 or 3 human opponents in this game, and they're a lot better at being tense and scary than fights against hordes of shootmans in the call of doodies
the fights against 10 or so dudes often end up being a "pick off one at a time" deal, anyway, so it's not like you're being overwhelmed by tons at once unless that's how you're playing
just feel like this is a weird choice of game to pick that bone with, especially when there are some really great, small encounters here
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remote
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:46 am |
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| parker wrote: |
| The great small encounters are why the big ones are so frustrating though. Also all the big ones start out really reasonable looking, but then no, the guys just keep coming and coming until you've killed like thirty. You'd think guys would value what lives they have left in this world. And by the 2nd half of the game it starts feel like the big encounters is all there is. |
I dunno! I'm in the "Fall" part of the game where Ellie takes off on a horse and you get stuck in a house deep in the woods where some guys might have been hiding out, and they come in after you. There were maybe 5 or 6 of them, and no more came. I'm low on ammo (except for my old pistols), but I had enough stuff to throw molotovs and nailbombs at them, stealth killing a couple. It was only tense when one guy came down the hallway with a machete, I'll admit, but I guess that's because I've gotten better at sneaking.
Of course, I'm assuming I'm well into the second half by now, unless it comes all the way 'round to summer again.
| Broco wrote: |
| what The Last of Us has proven it's that it's possible to have a poignant movie story in a game |
Aw, come on. Really? Like nothing else has proven this before? Not trying to slam you, and I obviously I like the game, but this seems a little close to all the CITIZEN KANE OF GAMES RIGHT HERE stuff. You know that videogames have been poignant plenty of times, and it hasn't fallen to The Last of Us to prove this.
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remote
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:57 am |
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When you put it that way, I agree.
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remote
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:47 am |
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The gun sounds are certainly enough to annoy my girlfriend. 8)
All of the sound design is fantastic, really, so using headphones is actually preferable.
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remote
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:43 am |
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I think the reason the zombie parts are different is that they behave in much more volatile and unpredictable ways, flailing their arms and sprinting toward you in packs, which is something the humans won't do. Kind of what Broco said already. Both are interesting in different ways, but also easily exploitable once you get better at the game.
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remote
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:51 pm |
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I'm not really sure why it's become such an issue itt.
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remote
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:01 am |
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At the part near the end, I assume, where the Fireflies decide to tell Joel they're gonna kill Ellie to extract the cure from brain or something like that, and I have to fight my way through several waves of trained soldiers. It starts out well as I stealth kill four in a row because they run up and check the body of the guy I killed just before them, but then I'm low on ammo, more are coming in, and I'm throwing bricks and picking off one at a time. Health is down to a hair. One guy left. (Unless there's another wave after him.) I pick up an assault rifle. He's right on the other side of a short wall in front of me, so I figure I can just spray him. I pop up, and I'm not aiming at the center of the screen, or something — he kills me with one shot.
That was my fourth try. Back to the first wave again.
Fuuuuuck.
This really killed the momentum and urgency of the whole sequence. Now I'm going to bed.
God damnit.
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remote
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| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:42 am |
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i'm near the end and hope to finish it tonight -- so far my favorite part of the game was probably the entire winter sequence, starting with ellie stalking a buck, all the way through to ellie stalking men and leaping on their backs like a feral, cornered animal when she couldn't simply pick them off with arrows. something about maneuvering her small frame made her seem even more fierce than big ol' joel, and with the higher stakes the intensity was at its keenest.
actually looking forward to trying a little bit of the multiplayer stuff after i'm done, too.
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remote
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| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:16 am |
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Finished it. Phew.
Honestly, I think the ending has left me with a kind of emptiness. Do I want a sequel? Maybe not. But yeah. It's interesting in contrast to The Walking Dead, where Lee was did everything he could to keep Clementine alive, even as he was slumped against a wall, dying. Here, it's different. In TWD I could feel the desperation Lee felt as he died, but Joel's choices near the end of The Last of Us were entirely selfish and there was a weird, final disconnect. I want to say I can understand where he was coming from, but considering all he left in his wake just to keep her alive, with him as a surrogate daughter under the pretense of a terrible lie... That's some real heavy shit. The Walking Dead left me with a heavy heart, but this one's going to stick with me for a while in a slightly different way. Siiigh.
... I might go through it again immediately, this time on survival mode.
tim: multiplayer some time would be fun! I unfortunately do not have a fancy headset for my PS3. Perhaps something else could be arranged or we can just see how it goes with me as a mute. I tried a little bit just now and it's pretty neat!
My name on PSN is "paracletus" (and I wish I could change it).
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remote
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| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:51 pm |
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another thing i loved: when you find the crumpled letter you handed to bill just moments before. that level of storytelling is all over the place here. man!
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remote
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| Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:37 pm |
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HL2, in my mind, remains great solely because of its themes (dystopia, body horror, 1984 meets Childhood's End) and aesthetics (Viktor Antonov's designs and all the distinct, excellent iconography), and the whole overarching trek to the Citadel (the most BLAME! setting in a game, perhaps), which you eventually enter. It'll always be an iconic and landmark game to me. That said, I do think The Last of Us actually builds on natural and believable characterization, dialogue, animations, etc. in a way that places it fairly well beyond HL2 (not to mention RE4 (and apparently Uncharted)).
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remote
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| Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:50 pm |
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Yeah my reading of it was way more ambiguous and unsettling.
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remote
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| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:55 am |
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| shrugtheironteacup wrote: |
Do I agree that Joel is a creepy, damaged, unsettling character? Yes. Was that intentional? Sure, probably. Did the sum total of the end read to me as weighted on the side of "hey this is kind of fucked up?" No.
I experienced it as a creepy, damaged, unsettling character who did a thing that was tentatively OK because Kids, Man. |
Mmmmaybe. I mean, certainly he's operating on a kind of damaged paternal impetus, but when he lied to her face in the very last lines my heart sank because I felt like he was nurturing himself regardless of what she might have wanted had she known the truth or been given the choice. Of course, on the other hand, had she known it was going to kill her, what would she have chosen? So maybe Joel did feel like he was protecting her. It's just... in the very next scene (after escaping from the hospital) he's telling her he thinks she'd have really liked Sara, ignoring her uncertain, dejected tone of voice. It's weird and very creepy. I don't think there's an easy answer to this one and that's why this game hasn't left my brain since I finished it.
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remote
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| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:20 am |
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| shrugtheironteacup wrote: |
| It's awkward, but not creepy in and of itself. |
Not sure I agree, but it's hard to say for certain since we aren't privy to his internal monologue and can only guess as to whether he wants this more for her or for himself.
Whether it's more awkward or creepy, maybe unsettling is the better word.
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remote
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| Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:26 am |
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| Broco wrote: |
| the entire game up until the end establishes an ethical frame in Joel's mind where anyone trying to kill Ellie is doing so for malicious reasons, and therefore deserves any murder coming to them. Then when circumstances suddenly change, Joel is not flexible enough to change gears and reconsider that assumption. |
This is a really good reading of what drives Joel, but I still think it leaves room for the ambiguity of what he might want for himself.
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remote
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:25 am |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| I probably wouldn't have killed the world's last brain surgeon though, I guess you could chalk that superfluity up to actual psychosis. |
Holy shit yeah. For all the interesting talk we're having about this ending, the one thing I really wish they hadn't done is force you to kill the head surgeon. I mean, it's clear they're trying to drive home some kind of point, but WHOA. I stood there for a good ten seconds thinking, come on... really? I'm not sure I edged close enough to see if he'd slash at me, but I just knew: there's no way around this. They're going to make me kill this guy. I guess I've killed enough already, what's one more...?
I don't have kids, but I can really appreciate your "immovable object" assessment even though I don't think it absolves Joel of his lie one bit.
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Last edited by remote on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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remote
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| Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:43 pm |
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Yeah, same here. It gave me too much room to sit there going, "Can I... just... get by? I don't want to kill you, man."
So we stood there in awkward silence until I resigned to pulling the trigger.
It could have been handled better.
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remote
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| Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:32 am |
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what are you saying this says about me tim
i mean, i think they could have less clumsily forced me to kill the guy, you know? i can understand that they were trying to do something subtler than "press x to murder" or just a straight-up cutscene, but in this particular instance it wasn't the most graceful decision. there's a similar thing done in the walking dead, where the difference is that the only thing you could do was aim and pull the trigger. here, you can kind of move around and edge closer to the doctor and go, "ok, um... well, fine." i feel like the wiggle room they allow you ends up feeling more like they're mocking you from behind the curtain just because you lean a bit more toward player agency in that particular mary sue litmus test. which, yeah, is the interesting thing i guess. not sure i like it anyway. it's definitely among the few things in this game that elicited a real :/ from me.
so yeah, i'm playing survival mode now and it certainly is a lot more tense without the remote viewing. i'm moving through places much more cautiously than before. the real challenge, though, comes from the scarcity of resources. i will probably indulge myself with a survival new game plus and then be done with it, though maybe not right away.
more multiplayer would be fun, too. also dlc! i don't think i've ever anticipated dlc like this outside the half-life 2 episodes (heh) and the dark souls expansion. really wonder what they'll do with it. supposedly there was some concept art showing san francisco, so i guess a shorter campaign involving other characters could be in the works, though that'd be a whole lot of new assets to create...
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remote
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| Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:55 pm |
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curious: does everyone still take shiv master first on survival, or would weapon sway be better?
i'm up to the part with bill and i haven't used a single shiv on anything other than shiv doors, so i'm leaning toward weapon sway or max health...
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remote
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| Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:16 am |
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Adi, I employed the schoolyard tactics outlined in your survival videos on youtube to thrilling success.
Bill almost screwed the whole thing up by getting stuck on the car below, but once he got up it worked like a charm.
Kicksplosionings happened.
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remote
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remote
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:59 am |
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i no longer think there is such a thing as a "must play" videogame, no matter how much i may like it because somebody's gonna hate it
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remote
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:11 am |
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i do think the very first part with tess is a little boring and meant to ease you in
definitely gets better
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remote
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:44 am |
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as enjoyable i have found the survival mode to be, even with its starker and more desperate murder than the normal game, i couldn't argue: a game like this where more of it is just the journey and a few desperate encounters would be a nice thing to have
i like this game a whole lot, but yes, it certainly is a videogame
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remote
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:59 am |
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yeah. i mean, i see no reason to plainly write it off as a death knell. and even if i did, a death knell for what? have you noticed how well indie games are doing, lately? it's a great game that accomplishes far more with real characters and acting than most videogames ever do. it makes me feel things. it has problems, like every other fucking videogame ever made. it's not citizen kane or the avengers or fuckin' weekend at bernie's. it is what it is.
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remote
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:05 am |
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i'm not yelling at you specifically or anything, holdypaws. sorry if i came off that way. i just think it's a real cool game and i'm normally the guy going on about how everything should look to games like dark souls, la-mulana, starseed pilgrim, etc.
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remote
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remote
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| Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:12 pm |
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the last last of us
the last of the last last of us
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remote
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| Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:09 am |
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i'm not despairing or anything. maybe they'll be good, and maybe they won't?
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remote
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:18 pm |
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survival mode, on the other hand, does make for a good replay. 8)
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