|
View previous topic :: View next topic
|
| Author |
Message |
Rei
sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
 Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:50 pm |
  |
|
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| I cannot even tell if you actually believe this |
You can't tell because I was sharing a passing thought. People usually don't wholly subscribe to things that occurred to them while they were talking to others on a message board.
That said, let's have Kojima teach us about women some more.
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Baseballkappe
Joined: 14 Nov 2010
Location: France
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:19 pm |
|
|
| fuck you kojima you are a silly idiot |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Iacus
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Stockholm
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:12 pm |
|
|
| Rei wrote: |
That said, let's have Kojima teach us about women some more.
|
Does this imply that Metal Gear Mk. II is a Hideo Kojima self-insert!?
25 years and still discovering new things about Snatcher.
_________________
Guayaba 2600 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
TXTSWORD
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:22 pm |
|
|
| Let's hold things written by a man 25 years ago, not as literal thought but as dialogue by fictional characters, against him. Ugh burn this thread to the ground. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
parker
a wolf adventuring
Joined: 31 May 2007
Location: suplex city
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:33 pm |
|
|
Settle down nobody is making you put your videogames away. I'm pretty sure mick jagger is a bigger scumbag than kojima ever will be I'm sure as shit not going to stop listening to the stones
_________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
analogos
bravely default crying fairy
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:52 pm |
|
|
| TXTSWORD wrote: |
| Let's hold things written by a man 25 years ago, not as literal thought but as dialogue by fictional characters, against him. Ugh burn this thread to the ground. |
shouting down any critical engagement of the man's work is hardly preferable. we can do better, y'all. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:53 pm |
|
|
| TXTSWORD wrote: |
| Let's hold things written by a man 25 years ago, not as literal thought but as dialogue by fictional characters, against him. |
Do you think he's changed his views since then? |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:58 pm |
|
|
| Even if we granted validity to the fallacy of fictional content being separate from reality because it is fiction, we still have Kojima's statements regarding gender and sexuality on the other page (among others not cited, I'm sure), and so we at least have to deal with fiction being the product of an authorial intellect that has partially explicated itself |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Rei
sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:09 pm |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:47 pm |
|
|
| parker wrote: |
| Settle down nobody is making you put your videogames away. I'm pretty sure mick jagger is a bigger scumbag than kojima ever will be I'm sure as shit not going to stop listening to the stones |
For once I agree with you Parker
_________________
Just another savage day on Planet Earth. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Rei
sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:22 am |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
TXTSWORD
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:45 am |
|
|
| Cool. I don't wear hats or care about this. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
analogos
bravely default crying fairy
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:51 am |
|
|
| hey Only Person Saying Anything pls stop it when's the next trailer |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:55 am |
|
|
| diplo wrote: |
| Even if we granted validity to the fallacy of fictional content being separate from reality because it is fiction, |
uh.
_________________
  |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Rei
sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:58 am |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:10 am |
|
|
| Yes, DJ? |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:29 am |
|
|
| man, I wonder what a professional/English-fluent translator would do with those MSX Snatcher lines. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:04 am |
|
|
| Probably not much more, considering the ultimate indeterminacy of translation |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
ionustron
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:09 am |
|
|
Rei I liked those posts. It did help clarify the madonna-whore complex thing Booji was stating.
I guess when a creator's been more or less a salaryman in the business of producing and the guy certainly loves what he eats, there's probably not much incentive towards personal introspection more substantial than a receipt of things partially regurgitated with nested pride. You sure did travel and shape the world!
I'm sorry for impeding on loathing invested video game hype thread#8325 with my own so whatever. I kinda get it because I treated Kitten like shit back in the Metroid Eris thread.
(man SD Snatcher was such a weird blip.) |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Vikram Ray
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:31 am |
|
|
| really good post Rei |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:33 am |
|
|
Rei how did you ever learn so much about Metal Gear. Goodness. I mean aside from the Bechdel Test analysis which is awesome, that is just a whole lot of top-of-head knowledge about the byzantine plot of like seven games.
Clearly although you are very invested in the feminist critique, there is still something you like about Metal Gear and Kojima games in general. I'd like to know what it is!
_________________
Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Tulpa
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:50 am |
|
|
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| Clearly although you are very invested in the feminist critique, there is still something you like about Metal Gear and Kojima games in general. I'd like to know what it is! |
Actually yeah, I'm curious about this too. Rei, do you find these games to be problematic (in the sense that you think there's something of value in these games despite the sexism and any other -isms present in them) or simply bad because of the associated -isms?
_________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Rei
sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:37 am |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:58 am |
|
|
Lemme just understand you here: Are you saying fiction cannot be a thing that exists separate from reality? I'll admit that quite a bit of fiction draws its parallels to things the author experienced in real life and it's not uncommon at all for an author to make a direct reference to these real things within their own fiction, but...
| diplo wrote: |
| Even if we granted validity to the fallacy of fictional content being separate from reality because it is fiction, |
Well...That's not a fallacy. Fictional content is, by actual literal definition, quite separate from reality, completely regardless of where it is getting its source from and how closely it resembles it. I'll be that guy and reference Merriam-Webster here:
fic·tion noun \ˈfik-shən\
1. Written stories about people and events that are not real.
That would imply fiction is a separate thing from reality, no? If, to use an example from this thread, we have a bunch of women being objectified blatantly in a video game, this doesn't actually mean any women were subjected to such in the real world on a one-to-one basis. There never were any women (or anyone else) in the first place. It's entirely made up. It never existed. Nobody was hurt because there never even was anybody to hurt or objectify or anything else.
Or, perhaps to phrase that better, nobody was actually hurt in the stories themselves; people viewing those stories may have been bothered by the contents, sure, and that's worth discussing, but that's still an important distinction to make that I feel doesn't actually get made all that often? That's where it gets a little disconcerting for me, when people react like fictional examples of this stuff are real because it's an issue that's close to them.
Maybe this is just me being overly semantic and splitting some hairs that don't need to be split. And I'm not saying this to diminish the issue at large or even say "Hey don't bother critiquing this because videogames lol", because no. This doesn't just go for gender issues, either, and it's certainly not endemic to this discussion or this board or anything like that. It's a thing that happens with practically any issue that is of strong personal relevance to anyone.
Case in point: Stephen King wrote a thing a while back about how one of the books he wrote, I believe it was The Dead Zone, had a scene in it where the villain fairly graphically stomps a dog to death because he didn't like the dog barking at him. And he got all these nasty letters and death threats and such from people who were deeply upset at how horribly this dog died and how unbelievably mean the circumstances were surrounding it, that this poor puppy was brutally kicked to death by a person who enjoyed causing it suffering before snuffing it out. He said it blew his mind, because no dog actually got hurt, at all. There was no dog in the first place, or anyone to stomp him to death. It was just words on paper meant to illustrate how nasty this villain was, but people's reactions to it were actual emotional distress because some of them worked at shelters for abused animals, some had known pets who were killed by angry neighbors, some just had dogs they loved and the thought of their puppy getting killed just hit a little too close to home for them. In these people's minds, however, he had become some kind of sick fucker who got off on animals being brutally beaten to death because why else would anyone put it in there so casually? And he had it pointed out that this is a real thing that happened for real and how dare he use it for the cheap trick of just painting a villain in the poor light and etc. etc.
So to those people, the pain was certainly real enough even if the triggering events were not. But I don't think it's a great idea to tell the author they shouldn't have written that because it might upset some people who have actual issues with the subject being played out. The onus is not and should not be on the author to censor themselves in anticipation of social mores changing for the better down the line, or even to omit viewpoints they may even espouse themselves for fear of offending anyone.
If you're a racist and a misogynist and write your stuff from that perspective, well, okay! But maybe you're just writing characters who act that way. Maybe you're not intending to write them that way and you're just writing them how you think normal people act because you're somewhat ignorant, and down the line it's going to sound really strange to people with a more recent set of social mores (if you take any college English class ever this is an issue that comes up a lot). It can actually be quite difficult to know the author's intent with fiction because it's fiction and it can be what it is for a lot of different reasons; not all (or even most) of them are the kind of thing you can safely hang a guilty verdict on when it comes to what the author actually thinks. It is best to take fiction for what it is: Something that is not real and both is and always will be a product of its time for better or worse.
That mental filter that should rest with the end user.
I feel like this is a very important filter to have.
Anyway.
It's very late and I'm likely not phrasing this as well as I could; hopefully this made enough sense.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
DJ
Shaman Analyst
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:06 am |
|
|
Guh. Even rereading that a few minutes later it already comes across as a muddled mess. I should know better than to try to post things like that at 2 in the morning. I'm getting too old to even pretend I can sound coherent at that point. I'm going to leave it up anyway and maybe circle around back later when I can get it down to the succinct points without sounding like I'm trying to shoot other people down -- I'm really, really not. I'm just taking stumbling attempts at advising caution when it comes to tying in someone's fiction output to their real-world beliefs, particularly when it comes to older things.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Iacus
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Stockholm
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:30 pm |
|
|
| Rei wrote: |
| Seriously, this isn't a woman simply telling a little girl to mind her appearance. Naomi is not giving Sunny hygiene lessons; she's putting a flower in her hair and telling her that all women have to look as beautiful as possible. This scene says that what led to the perception that all women should seek to achieve optimal physical beauty was grown of women themselves telling little girls how they should think and present themselves to others. Women are the ones who reinforce their own gender roles! Look: Naomi’s teaching Sunny the tricks of the trade right here. Girls have to look their best, and hey, it was all the women’s idea, anyway. Another unwitting case of blaming women. |
But isn't this very example proof that passing the Bechdel test means jack shit?
I mean, it's so easy to write the most misogynistic shit imaginable and still have it pass the Bechdel test that I'm amazed people take it as a valuable measure of anything.
If there is some actual insight to be gained from subjecting a piece of fiction to the Bechdel test I'm certainly missing it, and would love if y'all could illustrate its usefulness to me. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Rei
sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:40 pm |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Jigsaw
Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Location: Eskilstuna, Sweden
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:13 pm |
|
|
| Rei you are a cool poster, thumbs up |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Rei
sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:16 pm |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:28 pm |
|
|
| DJ, I'm only reinforcing the point that fiction is not absolutely separable from reality because it is a product of reality and, once in existence, influences reality to varying degrees. Just in case txt was about to take that route. Would write more, but circumstances don't permit it. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:25 pm |
|
|
Really enjoyed reading these posts Rei, thanks. They're great reads.
_________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Tulpa
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:12 pm |
|
|
Rei I was actually just curious if you thought these games were worthwhile despite the misogyny embedded in them. I was asking because I find neither the position of "There's nothing at all wrong with these games stop criticizing them I like them how can they be sexist" to be coherent, nor the position: "This game is misogynist, racist, etc for all these reasons and therefore no one should ever play them." to be very livable (personally speaking, I mean. I was in a really miserable mood when I tried to treat media like this, I couldn't enjoy anything). I just wanted to know if you'd recommend someone still play any of these games with a critical eye (in the sense of being wary of sexist bits and not letting them embed themselves in the player.)
This post is just clarifying my motives in asking since I realize I might have sounded duplicitous or something.
_________________
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Rei
sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:16 pm |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:27 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:30 pm |
|
|
imo casual sexism of the sort that's still socially acceptable in Japan has been pretty much a constant in Kojima's games (aggravated by the fact that he's just plain shit at writing female characters), but it's never been pervasive or malicious to the point of seriously detracting from the experience for me (i.e. we're not talking about Metroid: Other M here). I guess different people have different levels of tolerance for this stuff (and mine's pretty high) but for me the instances of sexism/homophobia or whatever stay safely within the realm of stuff I can roll my eyes and laugh off as "lol Kojima" rather than stuff that legitimately crosses the line.
Devoting huge amounts of time and energy to harping on sexism in Kojima's games seems like a really weird battle to fight.
_________________
Just another savage day on Planet Earth. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Rei
sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:05 pm |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:27 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
apfEID
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Location: NYC / Lordran
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:21 pm |
|
|
| Iacus wrote: |
But isn't this very example proof that passing the Bechdel test means jack shit?
|
Actually, no, because the Bechdel test is intentionally an extremely low bar for a piece of media to meet, and even with the bar set that low, that so many films (and games) can't succeed, is telling in and of itself.
_________________
Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est
http://ageoffire.tumblr.com |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
apfEID
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Location: NYC / Lordran
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:22 pm |
|
|
Also, Rei, thanks for the insight and wealth of examples.
_________________
Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est
http://ageoffire.tumblr.com |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:24 pm |
|
|
Shattering the narrative logic of his own games to indulge in absurd easter eggs has long been a Kojima staple, even when it's in dubious taste. There are plenty of more innocuous examples throughout his games. He's sort of trying to be playful, and in doing so he most certainly clashes at times with the boundaries of tastefulness (if he doesn't leap right past them) but to me it reads more as juvenile naughtiness than deepseated malice or callousness. I guess I can see why it might be too much for some people, though.
_________________
Just another savage day on Planet Earth. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:47 pm |
|
|
I should add that the one time Kojima has seriously crossed the line for me was the cutscene in Peace Walker where the game invites you to ogle Paz in her lingerie while the KGB dude (forget his name) is implying that she was tortured and/or sexually assaulted by American soldiers. It seems so astoundingly inappropriate, offensive and unfunny that I honestly wonder whether I misunderstood it somehow.
Dr. Strangelove turning out to be not so lesbian after all was also pretty stupid
_________________
Just another savage day on Planet Earth. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:53 pm |
|
|
| ionustron wrote: |
| Rei I liked those posts. It did help clarify the madonna-whore complex thing Booji was stating. |
Just to chime in where I am coming from:
In review, the madonna/whore complex is an "issue" (I don't know exactly what word goes here) where men classify women as either Madonnas (which can be either subservient, or as mothers, but either way are seen as non-sexual) or Whores (over-/hyper-sexual beings). There is not capability for anything other than this.
It's tempting to see the Boss as breaking this, but MGS3 sure doesn't pull that off. Big Boss clearly views the Boss in an ass-kicking but still maternal way, and the game is almost content to let this be the thing, except then we get things like the whole scar in her cleavage shots and such. And Big Boss certainly files Eva into the later category. It's pretty :( in general.
And at least when I play it, the game seems to dance around this a lot, but never really engage it, and Big Boss never has to confront it or anything, so it just keeps going.
I totally get where Rei is coming from with her criticisms of Kojima's work as a whole, and it's certainly problematic. While I can still enjoy his games, I can definitely see how these things could ruin them and such for other people. I actually appreciate that I find myself unable to play them without thinking about these issues. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
shrugtheironteacup
man of tomorrow
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: a meat
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:57 pm |
|
|
"juvenile naughtiness" isn't automatically benign because "deepseated malice or callousness" exists in the world.
_________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
